Dating advice please - and prayers!

[Xantippe]

They have only been going on **dates **for a few **months. **Not years. They are not even “Facebook official.”

Why is everyone discussing marriage and meeting families, and how long a girl should sit around and wait for a guy?

Because the OP’s guy is not showing a lot of enthusiasm.

Edited to add: My future husband and I were engaged within three months of meeting, so that’s my frame of reference. I don’t recommend that to everybody (or actually anybody–don’t try this at home, kids!), but I think one should have a pretty good idea of a relationship’s potential at that point.

 

[Xantippe]

OP,

I think you should probably consider taking turns on paying soon.

It might be a nice thing if you each take turns planning your evenings together, with the host planning and paying.

(I felt awkward having my future husband buy me nice dinners, so as soon as we were serious–which was pretty quick–we started taking turns.)

 

[Irishmom2]

Because the OP’s guy is not showing a lot of enthusiasm.

Edited to add: My future husband and I were engaged within three months of meeting, so that’s my frame of reference. I don’t recommend that to everybody (or actually anybody–don’t try this at home, kids!), but I think one should have a pretty good idea of a relationship’s potential at that point.

That’s right, he isn’t. Maybe because of his past or maybe he is “just not into her.”
Exactly why there is no relationship going on. It just isn’t there yet, or it isn’t there. But no amount of pushing or wanting it on her part is going to make it happen.

As for you and your husband, that’s great. But a lot of guys are not even saying I love you in 3 months, so, your story is not actually the ruler the OP needs to measure with.

 

[chevalier]

That’s right, he isn’t. Maybe because of his past or maybe he is “just not into her.”
Exactly why there is no relationship going on. It just isn’t there yet, or it isn’t there.

And we don’t know which.

 

[joshvanrad]

It would seem there are some red flags here. Being hurt can certainly lead to consequences within us, but dwelling on that pain too much can lead to us living in a form of constant fear. It would appear that is where he may be. Sometimes dealing with those fears is something that is best done in solitude. While you may be able to reaffirm the fact that good women do exist, you will not able to heal is pain. That is something that is between him and HIM.

To answer the original question, I look for 4 pillars in which to build my relationships on…

1.) Catholic… or at least open to my Catholic beliefs
2.) Physical attraction. I must be physically attracted to her.
3.) Financially stable. It shows a degree of responsibility.
4.) Clear goals in life. Because I don’t want to try moving forward while the other person is standing still.

Relationships are like anything else in life. They take a lot of work, and often times they put us in situations outside of our comfort zone. Only by the grace of God can we make these crazy situations last. Best of luck to you.

-Joshua

 

[augustinegirl]

1. I suggest choosing a deadline for how long you are going to be patient–but don’t mention it to him. I think 3-6 months is fine, although you might go a little longer.

I also think he ought to be working with a good therapist about his relationship and trust issues. In fact, that might be a good condition to ask for–that you will be patient and are willing to invest in the relationship if he is doing actual work on himself, but not if he is passively expecting things to improve.

I also suggest you read some boundaries books. I haven’t read all of those books, but I know that the Boundaries in Marriage book is particularly good on being loving, respectful, but at the same time standing up for yourself as needed. It’s possible to be both very firm and very kind. That’s a happy medium that it sounds like you could benefit a lot from learning about.

(I say that as somebody way older than you who has only recently started working on this–it is really hard if one hasn’t hasn’t had a real life example of what loving, respectful disagreement looks like.)

1. I think you should tell him about how you feel about being with him and different communication methods. If texting is not good for developing your relationship, then tell him that and tell him that you need less texting and more in-person time.

Also, figure out what your disagreement medium is going to be. I think it’s probably right for just about everybody that texting is TERRIBLE for arguments or disagreements.

1. As a smart guy once said, 80% of success is showing up. Not talking to your significant other about problems is the relationship equivalent of not showing up.

In successful marriages, couples talk and think about things and keep working on problems until they have something that they can both live with.

(You should probably also read John Gottman’s Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work. That should clarify the question of whether you and your guy can make a go of it.)

Good luck!

I know it’s months later…but thank you for this post. Funny, I did start reading Boundaries books. I had no idea that I had boundary issues, nor did I know that there was such a thing. It’s been incredibly challenging and I’m afraid of having those boundary issues in the future. I end up taking all the blame and then calling him out and then realizing he’s just human and it’s like…how do people do this?

I wish I had suggested the texting thing sooner. But I know it’s two people needing to be there. And I think when it comes down to it, you both have to want the same thing. Facing reality can be very hard when someone else seems so good on paper.

 

[augustinegirl]

Dear Augustinegirl, I believe you already realize there is nothing wrong with taking things slowly or proceeding as if in a special friendship as opposed to rushing to engagement. What really troubles you is probably closer to you and him not being on the same page. And that’s dangerous territory. You may be tempted to rush and force things in order to repress those thoughts and convince yourself that the two of you are indeed on the same page. But vain gestures deprived of their normal meaning won’t help soothe your pain. Nor can they help your situation objective. Even if you are to be with that man in the end for the rest of your life — and perhaps especially if — you need to learn to let go.

…

Different people go about relationship pacing in different ways. The same people even go about it differently with different others. Both personalities matter, and how they interact is also affected by various subjective and objective circumstances.

Initially, some people decide to go on a lookout for a potential spouse, find the first likely candidate, make sure it isn’t a rotten apple, and then engage, marry and start living the marriage. In essence, those are people who just get married.

Others, by contrast, enjoy romance or enjoy friendship or need a lot of intimacy before making the decision. They are not simply looking for a practically reasonable wife or husband candidate, they are more in the true love business or something else is different with them.

I’m not saying you belong to any of these extremes, but you and the gentleman in question are clearly not on the same page. Whether this obstacle is surmountable or not is a different question, but the fact stands the road is not even.

Next, if the gentleman in question has been hurt in the past — and has been the type to get hurt like that, with the sort of lasting consequences she’s showing, which is a big clue — my expectation is that he would prefer to have built up some intimacy, familiarity and companionship. Again, chances are he’s looking for romantic love, not just for a good woman to marry.

Some other man in that same situation could be more inclined to invest time, energy and resources in a knot already tied and just work from there (a reasonable decision from a practical standpoint as long as one is capable of not looking back), but he is not that other man.
…

Thank you, much later. Both of your posts were excellent. The first paragraph really hit me though. First, I never heard of anyone talking about the “special friendship” thing. That’s clearly what it was. I’m so used to things being done a certain way.

“What really troubles you is probably closer to you and him not being on the same page. And that’s dangerous territory. You may be tempted to rush and force things in order to repress those thoughts and convince yourself that the two of you are indeed on the same page.” - This was spot on. I had no idea how to put it, but the rushing and forcing things in order to repress my thoughts of being on different pages is just amazing.

My biggest regret is having treated someone I cared about like that. It scares me that I’ll do it again.

 

[augustinegirl]

For the record, people sometimes respond with barriers when they feel their boundaries are being pushed. This is part of what I meant when I said the same people could have vastly different relationship dynamics with different actual or potential loved ones.

So for example the same Alice who is giving Tom a nudge to be more proactive in her current relationship may well have been giving John signs to hold back a little in her previous relationship. In her next relationship things may go in a different, third way (e.g. same pacing, same approach, or different but in a way that doesn’t cause anxiety or pain).

The old adage used to be that women chase when you run and run when you chase, but that’s just a human thing to do, no specific sex is ‘better’ or ‘worse’ about it.

I don’t want to speculate, but it looks to me like you may be pushing — or perhaps manipulating — him to have things done your way, and he may be exhibiting avoidant reactions.

At some point you will need to let him go, recognize or give him back his freedom. You know what they say — let it go, and if it’s yours it will come back to you, and if it doesn’t come back to you, then it wasn’t yours to begin with.

Now, don’t throw a relationship away just because things aren’t perfect or proceeding smoothly — in real life things rarely will. But at the same time don’t force yourself to stay in a relationship that would make (both of) you unhappy. Right now both of you deserve better than you’re getting.

Oh, and no mortal man is going to be perfectly generous and sensitive. Even saints sin. And a man acting generously and sensitively sometimes has to do something a woman doesn’t like, precisely because that’s the generous or sensitive thing to do.

Gosh…I wish I had read these things months ago when I still had a chance. Thank you. I have this torn thing of wanting to let him go for freedom, but also fearing he won’t come back. He won’t, but I guess that’s why we trust that God has better plans.

Personally, I favour the latter. I’m a big anti-fan of forced, institutional or otherwise artificial whole-family courtship. At some point one’s friend, whether romantic or not, would, of course, meet one’s family. And if romantic, then about the time of engagement it would, of course, be good for a prospective betrothed to meet the family in the capacity of what people used to call a ‘suitor’ (nobody should be using this word seriously in 21st century). But something to the tune of three dates and you meet mum (& dad) is not something I could stand for.

Gosh I wish my family was more understanding like that haha.

If it was the woman of my dreams, such as I am aware of having, I’m pretty sure I’d know in under 10 minutes. I could later decide that I’d been wrong, of course, but it’s not like I would be unsure for months. If I’m unsure for weeks or months, the likely reason is that I’m simply not that into her. Not enough to be happy to forsake all others. Not enough to unreservedly look forward to a future together.

Men tend to be front-loaded. This doesn’t mean a gentle-breeze scenario unfolding gradually until the pair suddenly realize they want to spend the rest of their lives together, is an impossibility. For various reasons a woman can escape our notice or not be regarded as fair game or there can be some other obstacles. Or we can legitimately not be sure, I guess. But normally we know. We just sometimes kid ourselves.

As heartbreaking as that is, I think you’re right. Obviously I’ve never met someone who is like “she’s it” because hopefully I’d be with that person. It’s not that I’m rushing to be married, it’s just that I know what I want, and it’s not just a relationship without direction. I don’t think it’s a waste of time to get to know someone, but I think at a certain point you have to just let go or move forward. And it seems that let go is the answer.

 

[augustinegirl]

Definitely sounds like someone from whom a big declaration is expected that he is not ready to give.

How do I stop from feeling so bad about how I treated him?

Nobody ever is fully ready. People who are perfect no longer need to marry.

That’s a great reminder. Thank you for that. I’m scared of showing flaws. Obviously in this case I showed a lot (heck, most I didn’t even know that I had), but no one is ever totally ready.

 

[chevalier]

Would appreciate some prayerful/truthful guidance as to the necessary basics of a relationship because no human is black and white, and I’m still learning how to be discern this stuff.

Yes, I can definitely see why relationships are difficult to you, fellow overthinker.

I also have anxiety which has made dating always quite difficult.

I know how this is going to sound, but yeah, you do need to relax a bit. On the other hand, you need to be yourself and can’t pretend to be someone you are not.

This guy I’m dating has told me he wants to move slowly because of past hurts

Don’t fall for wounded sparrows. I mean, don’t exclude them just because they are, but avoid developing a specific taste for what makes them what they are. Also consider what makes you attracted to them, if you are more often than this once.

I know these things can’t be rushed, but we’re only going on dates for months, not in a relationship (exclusively dating but not really with real commitments - I’m not called his girlfriend, don’t know his family, etc.).

That looks different from a younger perspective, but labels such as ‘girlfriend’ or ‘boyfriend’ don’t really matter. The commitment is more in the substance of what you actually do and how you are.

Next, it looks like you’re both very young, so making the relationship too formal too early might not actually be the best option. After all, that sort of thing tends to put you on a fast track to the point where you have to either get engaged or break up. Perhaps there’s no need to get to that point?

In any case, I would think about that guy and about yourself, and yourself with him, and focus on that — is it going in a good direction? is it in a good place right now? is it where you want to be? — rather than focusing on the status of the relationship.

Later on, you will discover that marriage, for example, is not a last achievement in dating (sort of like graduating and leaving the walls) but actually only the very beginning of living a life together.

I do really think it’s improving, but it’s hard for me to trust when we’re on two different levels and timelines at the moment.

Rarely are two people in the same place and time. Don’t expect perfect symmetry, though you may want to cherish it if it does happen (with that guy or with a different one at a different time).

I’m also not great at just moving slowly,

I think that’s how it works with people.

On the other hand, it’s usually the initiating party that wants to move on and up, while the responding party bides the time and balances things. Regardless who’s the man and who’s the woman.

I like certainty and I’m praying not to.

Almost everybody does, and yet we’ll never have it (well, not in this life) fully.

I would focus more on whether you think he’s the guy you want to be with. If yes, well, that should answer a lot of your questions. If not, cut it, and the questions aren’t relevant any more.

It’s been sticky here and there because he dealt with being cheated on and it ruined his trust and such.

Understandable. Even without considering you a potential threat in that same regard, he still does have some healing to do. That’s his right, and it’s fine.

On the other hand, it doesn’t mean you absolutely have to allow yourself to be held hostage by that either. It’s your right not to, and that’s fine too.

Also, chances are he might not be ready for a relationship. Strictly speaking, chances are neither of you two is (though in a different degree).

I will admit that he hasn’t always been the most sensitive or generous, and our communication hasn’t always been great.

That doesn’t make him an altogether bad fellow, but he’s not the only fellow out there either.

He doesn’t want to do gifts for holidays or anything, but yet he still pays for my meals and such.

Looks like he has a gentleman bone in his body. Again, like I said, not necessarily a bad person but not necessarily the right guy for you or the only one that’s out there.

We text about things and that’s not good for serious conversation, though he doesn’t like phone calls.

I’m reading a lot of what he doesn’t like. It’s considerate and thoughtful of you to mind those things, as well as to be willing to adjust your behaviour to avoid them (too many people these days aren’t willing to make any adjustments because they think they have a constitutional right to be like they are and the rest of the world should adjust to them), but do consider if you can still be yourself in the relationship.

And by yourself I don’t mean yourself completely unchanged — that’s not what interacting with fellow humans is for — but if you’re changing, then are you changing for the better? Is that how you want to change? Are you growing? If not, then meh, nothing to write home about. If the opposite in fact, then you need out.

I also haven’t been innocent either. I have some boundary problems I’m working on and I can be quite pushy/try to manipulate

Oh, that comes with the extra X chromosome, I believe. Seriously, though, pretty much everybody has something diagnosable, on a mild to moderate level. Doesn’t make us nuts. The problem: we gotta figure out how to live with each other. Tough luck.

 

[chevalier]

(I don’t realize I’m doing it but I’ll let my fears take over and push)…but then I also don’t always say what I’m thinking. I should be saying more of what I think and I’m working on that. I know relationships need to help people grow as well.

It’s good you see that, though don’t allow the picture to become exaggerated. Especially don’t rationalize other people’s bad behaviour by claiming the blame for yourself.

In terms of communication, one can be pragmatic. The point is for it to work, whether it’s an innate skill or acquired. In terms of acquired, there’s a lot of good accessible literature on the subject. And possibly some classes somewhere respectable that are free of charge too (YouTube even, or some online repository; just check the credentials and avoid self-made guru coaches).

As far as positives go, we share the same core values that are very counter-cultural and we’re both really invested in our faith and growing in faith. I just can’t ignore the voices of people telling me “I don’t know about this,” because I’ve always thought to listen, but I do also think some situations progress differently than others.

You’re going to get a lot of information from thinking about the responses you get in this thread, so perhaps give it some time.

I do have a good feeling about him (or maybe that’s just my attraction to him) and he’s slowly been improving and opening up (very, very closed off for a while),

Especially give it time if he seems to be improving and if you don’t have a feeling of the situation deteriorating for you.

but what do you look for? I’m a firm believer that not every situation is the same and people aren’t black and white, so I don’t believe people saying “he’s not into you” or anything.

People make educated guesses at best, each coloured by their own unique experience and personality. Always take into consideration but don’t be too easily swayed or shaken by something extreme someone somewhere said without having enough data.

It could be he’s stuck on something, but I’m not really asking that.

More like both of you are still young, both hurt or just he, both still growing. (Isn’t everybody from birth to death anyway?) Some bumps on the road are only expectable in the circumstances. Whether or not the two of you are good for each other.

What I’m asking is more…what qualities do you look for? In the past I’ve had these long lists, but I don’t think those are necessary.

Good thought.

I think there are just some essential factors that a person must have, and I want to hear what people think those are.

Well, if you generalize and abstract it too far, it’s going to come down to ‘a good person’, which is going to tell you nothing.

You probably want to focus on guys who you are attracted to but always in accordance with your reason and unafraid to skip the ones you don’t think are good news, no matter how attractive on the ‘chemistry’ level. You need someone who is honest and dependable, at least willing to communicate (even great skills don’t do much for someone who doesn’t want to use them), can see his own mistakes and is willing to work on them and work on getting over his own past hurts, the rest is difficult to say.

I could tell you what I’m looking for, but with me being a man in mid-thirties, I’m not sure that would be of any use to you. I do certainly look for honesty and willingness to communicate and have a lot of homework yet to do in the not-falling-for-wounded-sparrows department, as well as preventing myself to fall too hard for people who have something adorable about them and a good deal of good traits but aren’t good fits for me (and vice versa). Apart from faith being the obvious thing, I look for reciprocity, which means either reciprocal interest or acknowledgement of my interest as something that is welcome (as a woman you should want actual interest from a man rather than just acknowledgement of your interest in him). What matters a lot is the ability and willingness to spend time together, without having to run away from each other, without the spending of time together feeling awkward. It has to be something that helps and above all makes you want to grow, rather than stunting you (‘you’ in a general sense). If it stunts you, it has to go — as difficult as that decision sometimes is to make, especially with someone who’s adorable. It’s important to be able to have a good conversation, to have respect for each other, and to be able to have it, have a reason to have it, again, to spend time together and enjoy it. And to work together. Marriage is largely about being able to spend time together (it’s for a lifetime after all) and work together (children are a lot of work).

And then because it’s been dating before a relationship (family involved and such), do you think it is essential to meet the family and everything to know how someone is?

Don’t overfocus on family involvement. One has to meet the family when it’s engagement time, but introducing every boyfriend or girlfriend to mum and dad is not healthy, I think. In any case, don’t focus on gestures and signs. Focus on the substance.

I just want to do something that makes sense, but I also have these feelings that attach me to him because I love spending time with him even if he is hard to get to open up.

Make sure the feelings are not those of anxiety and fear of the unknown, as in, say, if not he then who. Don’t allow your brain to catapult a man into the position of your love interest simply because he’s the only man around who’s remotely compatible. Don’t allow your emotions to make you confuse maternal instinct toward a wounded person with romantic interest. Don’t be guilt-tripped into a relatinship. Don’t be held hostage by other people’s emotions. Or, in fact, by your own.

 

[chevalier]

Awch, that’s what one gets for being an old forgetful geezer. Looks like I’ve just replied to your thread without realizing I already had. Well, here’s some new perspective then (though the first answer is still true). Oh, embarrassment!

 

[chevalier]

Gosh…I wish I had read these things months ago when I still had a chance. Thank you. I have this torn thing of wanting to let him go for freedom, but also fearing he won’t come back. He won’t, but I guess that’s why we trust that God has better plans.

If you love it, you have to set it free. If it loves you, it will come back. If it doesn’t come back, well then, it didn’t love you — or not enough, or not as much as it loved something else.

Gosh I wish my family was more understanding like that haha.

I’m afraid families are a challenge as much as a gift.

As heartbreaking as that is, I think you’re right.

When I start sounding heartbreaking, that’s a good indication I’m probably right!

Obviously I’ve never met someone who is like “she’s it” because hopefully I’d be with that person.

Yup. That’s also why you don’t have a lot of comparison material, which makes comparisons difficult. It is one heckuva challenge for your people to tell friendship from romance, for example, if they’d never really hung out with the opposite sex before. They may be deluded into mistaking any sort of interest for love. Also happens to people of all ages who don’t go out much. By the way, that’s always a risk with someone who’s more extroverted, more of a socializer than you are.

It’s not that I’m rushing to be married, it’s just that I know what I want, and it’s not just a relationship without direction.

Direction is good to have. On the other hand, do avoid, shall we say, focusing overmuch on outward signs of that direction as opposed to whether it actually is there.

Obviously need to consider what happens if you (you and your ‘other half’) do make the decision that the direction is toward engagement and later marriage. Like we said, are the two of you then already ready to forsake all others, can you marry and start living together within the foreseeable future (two years, say), and so on. If not, then there’s perhaps no need to sieve things with the same rigour and expectation but perhaps take them more slowly, leave them more to their own pace. But if it dies, then, well, certify the death and move on, don’t kid yourself that it still lives, and certainly don’t cling on to dead husks of relationships.

I don’t think it’s a waste of time to get to know someone, but I think at a certain point you have to just let go or move forward. And it seems that let go is the answer.

It usually is. But at the same, don’t be too hasty — this is because it’s easier to backtrack a little, take the blame and apologize, from the position of someone who did the break-up than to get over the rejection etc. from the position of someone who was broken up with and then asked to get back together. It’s not just forgiveness, it’s just that an end is an end, and rekindling is not easy for someone who has accepted your decision as final and laid the relationship to rest for good. On the other hand, this is just a possibility to consider, not some kind of fear that should hold you hostage.

Essentially, it always comes down to what’s the right thing to do.

 

[chevalier]

My biggest regret is having treated someone I cared about like that. It scares me that I’ll do it again.

Again, don’t dwell too much on that. Apologize if you have to. Confess if you think it may have involved a sin. Move on. There isn’t much you can do in that type of situations save perhaps be ready to assist such persons in a time of need (from material help to being a willing listening ear), pray for them, and so on. But you can’t really hands-on fix what happened. I also don’t think it was particularly blameful anyway.

Do avoid the temptation of inventing something allegedly ‘misdone’ by you that you would need to fix just so you get a pretext to spend time with a person who doesn’t reciprocate your interest or is not ready for a relationship (supposing you can’t be the sort of friends who are aware of some romantic attraction going on but deciding not to do anything about it for the time being, which is probably something the two of you have moved a bit too far beyond to go back to).

And avoid blaming yourself to death just to absolve someone whose own act was not up to par and who has himself at least equally to blame. There is evil in the world, there is suffering, and it exists without necessarily having to be your fault. It’s both good and bad people who get soaked in the rain, mistreated by strangers or family, robbed, shot in those highschool shootings etc., or just have a cardiac arrest.

It’s difficult to accept that you don’t have control and are unable to prevent those things from happening, but that’s what it is. You can very much fail to prevent bad things from happening through no fault (or every little fault) of your own. That’s not a reason to beat yourself to death, at all!

 

[Demetra2]

I think that men know very quickly whether or not they want to marry the woman they are dating. If it’s been months and he still has not indicated that he wants you to meet his family, then I think it’s time for you to move on.

Not his girlfriend after months of dating? Not a good sign at all. As I said, men know. They are hunters, after all.

And YES, you must meet the family as part of the discernment process for marriage. NO EXCEPTIONS.

I have to agree with this post. Men tend to know what they want. I am also concerned that he doesn’t want to exchange gifts. Even someone on a limited budget would do this for the right person. I wouldn’t waste too much time with this guy but only you can decide this. I would get busy living a very full and interesting life where you can meet some other people. He isn’t in it to win it right now. He may be sometime in the future but not now. Good luck.