Daughter

[SamH]

I can’t believe you’ve forgotten what it feels like to be young. Your daughter is 19 years old and is discovering herself. And you want to lock her at home in chastity because of your beliefs? Ask yourself why she feels the need to sneak off?

Why don’t you just respect her decisions and let her find her own way? It’s her life to lead, not yours to dictate. .

Respect flows both ways. Right now the daughter has no respect for her father and the mother is just fine with that.

If she want to discover herself, she can also discover what its like to work, balance a check book and pay for her own place to stay. If she doesn’t like the house rules she can find another house to live in.

True it is her life to live, and she can live it once she’s her own person. But living at home at age 19 and sneaking around to have sex aren’t the actions of a person living their own life.

 

[Ljrm18]

So your child makes a mistake and your desire is to throw her out, and your wish is that “she would stay gone”. You seem like an extremely cold person, do you love her at all?

The kind of attitude you have is contrary to Catholicism. Remember the parable of the prodigal son. And you are thinking about divorcing your wife because she wants to take care of her child? I don’t think I need to tell you what the Church teaches about that one.

Getting married and raising a family is a vocation, when you become a parent you make a commitment to raise your child and to sacrifice if need be. Once you’re a parent it’s no longer all about you. You seem to want to destroy your daughter’s life because she made a mistake. Paying for her education would not be “financing her sinful lifestyle”, maybe paying for a motel room and condoms would be.

You need to talk to a priest and pray about this, because right now you are not being a loving husband or father. Why get married and have children if you don’t intend to follow through? Husbands are told to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, Christ endured horrible pain and death for the Church. Did he say he wished sinners would get lost and “stay gone.”?

Wow, talk about enabling. If he didn’t love his daughter, he wouldn’t have even asked here for advice on the matter. It’s very clear he loves her and is concerned with what she is doing with her life.

In regards to his talking about divorcing his wife, this has obviously been a struggle for both of them. Tell me, should they be parents or doormats? Sounds like he’s being the parent, and his wife is being the doormat. She’s not “taking care of her child” by enabling that kind of behavior.

As a parent, it is HIS job to raise his daughter, and if she strays, to discourage it. He never said he wants to destroy his daughter’s life. He just wants her to make choices that reflect well on her, for one thing. He wants her to take the good path, and she’s not. And not only that, she has chosen to give her Father and Mother no respect. If she can’t respect her parents, and refuses to honor their life and rules while living with them, why should they fund her education?

It sounds like he is trying to be a loving husband and father, and is having one heck of a time doing it. How about a little compassion for his situation?

 

[yellowbird]

In my view, there’s nothing worse than dictating a way of life to your children when they’re old enough to make up their own minds. That’s just brainwashing. It’s cruelty.

Ok, so my question for YOU is this: If your adult child decided that he wanted to live in your home and work as a prostitute would you just stand by and say nothing… ? What if that was the life he chose for himself? Do you keep quite and let him make his own mistakes? Because wouldn’t it be downright… what’s the word… oh yeah… “Cruelty” to impose YOUR views on him when he’s old enough to make up his own mind? Wouldn’t it be “brainwashing” to say, “Hey son… I don’t think being a prostitute is a noble career choice?” And suppose he’s bringing his customers back to his bedroom and turning tricks in your house? Do you say and do nothing?

 

[Liberanosamalo]

James, for the love of pete, dial it back! Just as many women can get on here and rant about a system where divorce leaves them penniless and the man’s income goes up. That’s not what this post is about. You have no idea what the mother/daughter dynamics are in this case. You are projecting a lot here by one sentence the man is giving about his wife not wanting to cut the daughter off from college tuition.

I’m with Irishmom and Cath’(name removed by moderator). I’ve seen kids from great homes with devout parents chuck it all away. And I’ve seen kids grow up with almost feral parents who neglected them and they turned out to seek God and become great people. Children don’t always reflect parents. Or we’d all reflect God our Creator. That stinky little free will and intellect always gets in the way…

Now, MeaCulpa, you probably think I’m a mean person. I know. My posts come across as harsh. I know it’s your worst day. I’ve lived it. I know more than you think what you’re going through. I’ll pray for your family if you pray for mine.

Please have mercy on your wife. I can tell you as a mother what it’s like to pass a child’s bedroom door and want to go in and sit on her bed and cry. To have a sick feeling in your stomach every hour of the day. To feel dead inside. To veer back and forth between fury and wanting to do ANYTHING to bring her back.

But there are some other people in this story besides your wife and daughter.

One of the other posters commented on this. The boy in question. Let’s examine him. He is not a good person. But your daughter thinks he is. He’s made her crazy. She’s chosen him over her own parents. Not that he’s provided 1/10,000th of what you have for her in her lifetime. Nor will he. He’s a little narcissist who thrives on living on the edge. No coming in the front door and looking you in the eye. He’s climbing in your window while you sleep and doing whatever he wants under your own roof. He lives in the moment. He makes a 3 a.m. booty call and he’s using your daughter. I would bet a month’s salary she isn’t the first. Your daughter is in physical danger from infections of any sort. A good guy would have joined you all in the pew at church, not taken your daughter from you and God. A good guy would not want to be in the middle of your family problems. He’d be trying to help his girlfriend reconcile with her family. This kid doesn’t care. It’s all about him. I suspect he has very little to fill his time except your daughter. Someone with a job or prospects of an education would be sleeping at those hours. He won’t go far in life on the path he’s on now.

And why should he. He has parents with NO standards, who are actively undermining yours. They have offered a fun, value-free place for him to play all day.

But they really don’t want to support your daughter for the rest of her life. They won’t pay for her dental care and her medical care. If their son knocks her up, it won’t be their problem. The honeymoon over there can last only so long. Only you know how easy your daughter is or isn’t to live with. A horrible guy like her thug boyfriend is not a forever keeper. Eventually he will hurt your daughter very deeply.

When she comes back, do not say “I told you so.” Say “I love you.” She is your child. She is in horrible danger. Right at the brink of having a life and a future, she’s being lured away from it by someone who doesn’t have her best interest at heart. She doesn’t even know who to trust, she’s so confused. But she’s the worst kind of confused. She doesn’t even know how confused she is.

You and your wife need to agree on what lengths you will go to to free her from this bondage. Is it worth it to you to pay for at least a semester of college to get her away from this boy? To give her a new perspective and new friends? 5 years from now will you rue the day you thought several thousand dollars was too dear for your daughter’s entire future? Please take the long term view on this. Don’t be penny wise and pound foolish.

I do not see your wife as undermining you. I see her as someone who understands a teenage girl’s crazy heart in a way a man never can or will. She knows these things are often temporary. But parents can make permanent mistakes handling temporary problems.

Some demons can be cast out only by prayer and fasting, by the way. You both need to meet with your daughter and have a calm rational discussion with her about what she thinks her future is, and how much a part you want to be in that. Until her eyes clear and she sees the thug for what he is, she won’t be rational. You can’t convince her the guy is no good. HE will have to do that for you. And he will. The only question is how long that will take.

Someone like that loves to live on the edge. He has little respect for her family. Eventually that will translate to little respect for her. You’re going to have to wait this out. Please use it as an opportunity to get closer to your wife. Not further away. Your daughter eventually will need a home and parents to help her. She is making mistakes that she will bitterly regret one day. But you can’t tell a teenager anything.

I have a sign by my desk:

Teenagers: Tired of being harrassed by your stupid parents? ACT NOW! move out… get a job…pay your own bills. Do it while you still know everything.
Continued…

 

[Liberanosamalo]

MeaCulpa, you know and I know that she is playing at being an adult with none of the responsibility. And she won’t have any in that house full of enablers. You cutting her off only throws her further into their grip. Are you going to surrender your beloved daughter so easily to a horrible rotten kid and his useless parents? They don’t love her. They aren’t thinking about her best interest. She is a toy to make junior happy. How old is the boy anyway? No one will ever love her the way you and her mother do. She has forgotten her own value right now.

I know all about worst days. I’ve had many. But you need to remember your role as a father, who stands between his family and oblivion. Go read the prodigal son story. Christ told it for parents like you. And me.

Please update us. We really do care. Many of us have teenagers. No one prepared us for it. They don’t come with an instruction manual. And we have the media, technology and other evil/careless parents who will undo a lifetime of our best effort. Whatever your daughter is doing, she has no idea the long-term implications. Parts of her brain that make the connection with the present and the future are not even developed. The corpus callossum and the prefrontal cortex continue to develop and mature into the early 20s. In a sense these teens are all brain damaged. They are literally not dealing with a full deck. But like a two year old who is sure they’re independent, they won’t hear anything but the voice in their own head telling them I CAN DO IT. This is an atomic version of a two year old temper tantrum. A very unfunny version. Nothing you can stand and watch and grin over. But in a way it’s not very different. They’re just bigger and more independent so the tantrum goes further.

Until her brain catches up with her body, it’s a bumpy ride. I know. I have many friends with daughters. I’ve seen the whole progression many times. Don’t give up on her.

God bless.

 

[L2P2]

For that reason I am suggesting that he protect himself financially and start peforming tirage so he is not blindsided by a daughter-mother scheme.

If that is not advocating divorce and family dysfunction, I do not know what is. This is a religious website, and your suggestions are completely inapproriate.

And I have not the foggiest intention of contacting you via PM and consider the suggestion harassing.

Are you by chance divorced? If so, you should not be posting here.

 

[CentralFLJames]

James, for the love of pete, dial it back! Just as many women can get on here and rant about a system where divorce leaves them penniless and the man’s income goes up. That’s not what this post is about. You have no idea what the mother/daughter dynamics are in this case. You are projecting a lot here by one sentence the man is giving about his wife not wanting to cut the daughter off from college tuition.

Ho-boy, here we go - yet another predictable self righteous spin-cycle of hysteria and cool-projecting of hyperbole over very simple advise. I don’t need to justify my advise but will choose to explain it anyway for what its worth. I was offering to preempt the inevitable conflict over who in the household has the authority in this mater since it will intersect over who has control of the finances. The male is traditional head of household in the Christian family and this is the crux of the problem in this case. Finances are the natural inflection point of where this conflict is going to end up sooner or later over who and how “the family” deals with this conflict. That does not imply any less love or nurturing.

So your vicarious rant viz your own teenage children’s experience is no more deserving of ear than anyone else’s real or imagined rant. You are quite free to express your own opinions based on your own experiences but please don’t entangle me in them by condescending mine please. No double standard is warranted here dear.

The problem here is very clear - the man is not seen as the authority figure in the house and is not respected. There is very little projection here - perhaps some - but from a very perceptive observational context that I trust in myself. I could care less if you are not buying or don’t agree - I am talking to the man. The nice thing about personal opinions and insights is that the requester can get a good cross section of ideas from anyone here - including housewives, spinsters, divorcees, married couples, psychologists, or whatever and he can choose to take those opinions that make sense to him without any need for others to condescend other’s opinions. I don’t agree with your opinions but I don’t care to critique them in any great detail nor is it germane nor proper to this OP to do so. So, you can offer your own opinions to the man but I am not soliciting your opinion of my opinions and I don’t think he is either. Grandstanding, one upsmanship and aggressive posting domination, after your own vernacular, is “not what this post is about”.

It sounds to me like the man has had enough of the women telling him how to run his family and might like some male insight without over dominating advise common to the typical liberal-feminist genre of critique that has its element this OP. Say your own peace objectively and kindly leave me and others out of it. Opinions stand on their own merits and we are not in a competitive situation here trying to push our own insights as superior to others. I don’t slam your ideas (as silly as I see them) so don’t slam mine. If I am over projecting too much into his situation (which my experience and intuition tells me otherwise) then no doubt HE is man and adult enough to reject the things that don’t apply to his case and does not need your editorializing and critiquing of my (name removed by moderator)uts to do that. No one appointed you Custos Morum here. Let the man be his own man - this is probably the real crux of the problem here - henpecked. So kindly just speak your own peace, don’t analyze me or others, and you - just chill. OK ? (not reciprocating your exclamation point so I can “dial it back” per your recommendation ) …

Good.

James

 

[yellowbird]

Are you by chance divorced? If so, you should not be posting here.

Where is THAT in the forum rules???

 

[L2P2]

Where is THAT in the forum rules???

It’s not. In general, I think is important for divorced Catholics to participate in Church life to the fullest extent, particularly when they are not the one to have initiated the split.

But this poster strikes me as having a lot of anger issues typical for the recently divorced, and I think his participation on this topic is hateful and inappropriate.

The moderators for Catholic Answers are really great with shutting down those who challenge the anti-Obamists.

Where are they when someone posts long invectives that are directly contrary to Catholic teaching? Guess it’s okay to inveigh in a heterodox fashion as long as you are a conservative.

 

[Irishmom2]

Good thing L2P2 is not making the rules then.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

So your vicarious rant viz your own teenage children’s experience is no more deserving of ear than anyone else’s real or imagined rant

Not so vicarious. I believe I have more to say on the subject of teenage girls than many men. I used to be one. My sisters were teenage girls. My mom was, my friends were, my friends now have a large number of teenage daughters, and the friends of my children are teenage girls. I believe I have a pretty keen grasp of them and certain trends and life patterns they follow. I’ll leave the OP and other posters to decide whether my opinion is deserving of anyone’s ear. But thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut!

I mentioned James by name because he seemed to be immediately countenancing an injustice in this family of taking the draconian measure of separating finances because he anticipates what? This woman he has never met clearing out her husband’s bank accounts or something?

get rid of all joint credit card acccounts and have only a limited joint checking account with a defined budget

I’ll leave it to all the readers to go back and read his post. What he advocated to people he doesn’t know was a violation of commutative and reciprocal justice and charity in the home. He confuses earning a paycheck with having all the authority in a home. Obviously has little respect for a mother’s unpaid contributions. We don’t even know if the OP’s wife works. To cut her off credit cards would be unfair. He doesn’t even know these people!

Nowhere did the OP say the wife was going to go behind his back and take the money.

James can take his own issues elsewhere. And I won’t respond to any of his further missives. He confuses me with a liberal feminist, which he has absolutely no proof of, and anyone who would call me that has never met me.

The only thing we agree on, James, is the nature of the boy involved in the situation. Your distaste for all women comes through loud and clear. We haven’t heard the mom’s side of this story and we have limited information. I repeat, your advice needs to be dialled back because to follow it would make a bad situation worse. The parents don’t need to be pitted against each other at a time like this. I suggested to the OP he needs to explore more why the mother seems so intent on paying the tuition.

Catholic teaching supports completely the parents working as a unit. Pope John Paul II in his encyclical Familiaris Consortio spoke of the unique contributions of the wife and mother in the decision making in the household and has always praised the feminine genius… the woman as heart of the family can often temper with charity a decision made by the more analytical head of the family. Don’t argue with me, take it up with St. John Paul the Great. I think this is a decision where the OP needs to really listen to his wife and her reasonings here before he makes any final decisions.

The father/husband is head of his household and head of his domestic church. Christ showed us how a true leader should behave. He got down on his hands and knees and washed the feet of His disciples. He who leads must be a servant first. Like the Pope who is head of the church refers to himself as the servant of the servants of God. Some people act like serving your family is a bad thing. And those financial resources are a gift from God. Ask any father looking for a job. They are to be disposed of with charity and justice in the family. As a resource, this man’s paycheck actually works in his favor in bringing his daughter home. Because I doubt that other family will be as generous with her as her own. But she will find that out the hard way.

 

[yellowbird]

The moderators for Catholic Answers are really great with shutting down those who challenge the anti-Obamists.

Where are they when someone posts long invectives that are directly contrary to Catholic teaching? Guess it’s okay to inveigh in a heterodox fashion as long as you are a conservative.

Anti-Obamists? Is that seriously a term?

I think I’d prefer to be called Obamaphobic.

 

[L2P2]

To leave aside the political and get back to the OP’s question:

What a priest in our diocese (run by a bishop who is a member of Opus Dei) typically suggests in high family conflict situations:

–A family therapist with a connection to the diocese; and/or
–Retrouvaille for the couple, if things have gotten to the point of divorce (retrouvaille.org/).

Retrouvaille is a RC group that specifically seeks to prevent divorce by fostering better communication by couples.

Both the family therapist and Retrouvaille are going to emphasize a united parental front on the subject of the daughter’s behavior. A lot of time will typically be spent getting the couple to reach consensus, so they can present their joint decision to the daughter.

They will also, typically, ask parents some tough questions, such as: “Do you love your daughter?” If so, try to show it, even if her behavior is abhorrent to you.

I do not post family details on the web, but I am free to say that I speak from experience and that getting help was really worth it. Even if you are generally skeptical, as I am, about therapy.

 

[SamH]

Anti-Obamists? Is that seriously a term?

I think I’d prefer to be called Obamaphobic.

I would think “realist” is a better term - but then how did the state enter a thread about a family situation? Its not like the government is going to intrude in this situation - or is there a bill I don’t know about?

 

[wanstronian]

Ok, so my question for YOU is this: If your adult child decided that he wanted to live in your home and work as a prostitute would you just stand by and say nothing… ? What if that was the life he chose for himself? Do you keep quite and let him make his own mistakes? Because wouldn’t it be downright… what’s the word… oh yeah… “Cruelty” to impose YOUR views on him when he’s old enough to make up his own mind? Wouldn’t it be “brainwashing” to say, “Hey son… I don’t think being a prostitute is a noble career choice?” And suppose he’s bringing his customers back to his bedroom and turning tricks in your house? Do you say and do nothing?

What a facile response. Just goes to illustrate the extent of your narrow-mindedness.

 

[wanstronian]

I can’t believe some of the posts I’m reading here. Referring to the situation as the daughter being “in bondage;” Fabricating Mother-Daughter conspiracies. This is extreme right-wing control freakness that has no place in the 21st - or even the 20th - century. I feel very sorry for most of the closed-minded posters on this thread, and I feel extremely sorry for the OP who has allowed Christianity to come between himself and his daughter. And I feel extremely sorry for her that her self-discovery is being seen as such a dreadful thing.

Don’t bother flaming me, I’m out of here. This is just too depressing.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Sadly, she is in bondage to sin. And someone has too much control over her heart that she would leave her parents and her faith as she has.

Sorry you don’t find our faith something that could bring peace and joy if actually lived.

Sorrier still that you think a girl’s self discovery should entail being used by a boy with no commitment to her and no respect for her. Her journey to “self discovery” is heading for a cliff. Many who tried to reinvent the wheel in their own lives found out too late the wisdom of Christ’s teachings.

 

[Cat]

“Your children are what you yourself are.” as quoted by L2P2

With all due respect to the priest, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Hasn’t everyone seen families where almost the kids end up fine but there is just that one kid that has to do it their own way? How do you explain them all having the same upbringing as far as rules, values and morals and the one chooses something different? That cannot be blamed on the parents when the 19 old “child” makes the choice to do something other than what they were taught.

So let’s just tone down the parent bashing. If you have children that have done everything perfectly, praise God. If not, it is not always the parents that are to blame.

Amen! So much wisdom here!

I know parents who truly did everything right, but their children made the decision to go down the dark parth anyway.

I also know parents who were complete goofs at raising children, but the kids turned out beautifully anyway.

At some point, every child will be faced with the decision of deserting what they have been taught at home, church, and school. Sadly, there are children who break their parents’ and God’s hearts by choosing to abandon all that they have been taught. THAT’S how powerful sin is.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Not so vicarious. I believe I have more to say on the subject of teenage girls than many men.

Oh from your missives directed to me and not to the OP I am certain you have a great deal to say about most anything except the OP. Get some discipline. Direct your comments to he OP and untangle me from your experiences which I have no part of and want no part of. I know you want to feel not only relevant but super-relevant. Fine - whatever blows you skirt up. Just stop cross threading other people’s (name removed by moderator)uts to make yourself feel so special. Your insecurity slip is, well, slipping sweeetie.

I mentioned James by name because he seemed to be immediately countenancing an injustice in this family of taking the draconian measure of separating finances because …

Why play the passive 3rd person indirection? I am not a child that can’t be talked to directly. Dr. Spock training? Why pretend here that you are not talking to me - you can simply say “I told you”. Why feign an aloof impersonal attitude as if this makes your absurd criticism more charitable. If you want conflict with somone look them face to face and eye to eye not over at their lapel name tag or I am going to ask you to “speak to the hand”.

I’ll leave it to all the readers to go back and read his post. What he advocated to people he doesn’t know was a violation of commutative and reciprocal justice and charity…

The readers didn’t need your permission to do that - and most don’t care. And now you want to escalate a silly game here by using Catholic principals to justify your sniping game? No one here is asking you to judge others opinions - again who appointed you Custos Morum - why do you feel you need to judge and grandstand? You have no business judging what I was advocating and your judgement is without substance and it is unjust in project your conjectures of what I respect or do not respect. I did not in any way advocate withholding financial assets from conducting the family affairs. What I advocated was being the head of the household and not permit his daughter viz his wife to steal from the family assets by pulling on mom’s heartstrings around dad. He has that right. Who said anything about cutting off his wife’s credit cards? Again, you are showing your subjective standard here. What I was advocating was shutting off joint credit cards she can still get her own credit cards in her own name. So no need to get hysterical again over imagined things I did no say.

Nowhere did the OP say the wife was going to go behind his back and take the money.

Again - why get so defensive? Why concern yourself with my comments to the man? This is not an algebra word problem and I am not restricted to look at this scenario as if its was a sterile algebra word-description problem where we can only use the information given in the text. I don’t need your permission to advance my own experience and insights into this based on real life cases. I am offering damage-control and a progressive means to start asserting authority in the household since his wife has already proven to be insensitive to her husbands desires and wants to be the sole authority of the household. That attitude warrants a progressive and measured response of caution and assertion of authority that is proportional to the risk of losing his entire family and his future financial future. It would only be Draconian if he were cutting off all financial support to get his way - that is not what I am suggesting. Stop judging me - and refocus on the OP.

James can take his own issues elsewhere. And I won’t respond to any of his further missives. He confuses me with a liberal feminist, which he has absolutely no proof of, and anyone who would call me that has never met me.

Actually you misjudge me - feminist are more intellectual and psychological in their attacks. If you go back and re-read you will note that I made no direct assertion that you were a liberal feminist - at best I only associated you in the cloud of people in this thread who may be the element who are exposed to the influence of femininatizism (so there’s still hope for you ). But since you are so belligerently committed to judging me I will now say that you definitely are argumentative against assertive males such as myself and that means that there is also a high probability that you don’t really believe that the man is the head of the household. That just furthers my original motive for giving our man here the benefit of male (name removed by moderator)ut. I personally don’ t care one way or the other if you are a feminist or not - I dont have to live with your argumentative attitude nor accommodate spousal obligations with you everyday. No doubt we can both agree and say “thank goodness” eh?

[cont]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[from above]

The only thing we agree on, James, is the nature of the boy involved in the situation. Your distaste for all women comes through loud and clear…

You don’t seem to get it. I don’t care if you agree with me - my comments are for he benefit of the OP originator who has the problem he is dealing with - I’t not about you at all - period.

But again I want to beg you to STOP judging me. Who do you think you are telling me I have distaste of all women??? Drop the gavel your honor and get out of your judicial robes dear (and back into your June Cleaver outfit and bake cookies ). I love women and think they are the best thing God ever created this side of heaven. I repeat, your judgement is not wanted here. No one is asking you to be Custos Morum and to opine on everyone’s recommendation to the OP. You present yourself as if you are more qualified than others here - that’s just pompous. If you really think that just state your recommendation to the OP and at the bottom say “I am most knowledgeable about this matter” and let the man judge for himself if that is apparent to him or not. Trying to discredit me or other’s here only serves your own apparent need for self affirmation and self actualization - signs of insecurity. I didn’t say anything negative about your advise to the OP and I am sure you have some good things to say - but you are not the only one here with good things to say. Comprehende?

Catholic teaching supports completely the parents working as a unit. Pope John Paul II in his encyclical Familiaris Consortio spoke …

This family has not been operating as a unit for a long time - that is apparent. My suggestion was a means to get some respect back and some attention to start getting this family working as a unit. The man is being stepped all over like a bathroom mat who’s only job is to support his wife and daughter. No need to create strawman arguments by escaping behind encyclicals for goodness sakes.

If you really though that the OP needs to really listen to his wife and her reasoning then kindly duck out of this cycle of criticising other’s opinions and stop giving the man your opinions and let him talk to his wife or do what ever HE wants to do. It’s not your call. He came here soliciting ideas and we are giving him ideas - not withstanding you criticizing everyone who has different opinions from you. What ever happened to diversity baby?

The father/husband is head of his household and head of his domestic church. Christ showed us how a true leader should behave…

Let’s not go over the top here and use this spat as a means to do deep theological exegesis. Good gracious - just get a life lol and stop being so blatantly combative and feel like you need to win.

Listen I know you mean well Liberano but this is totally wrapped around the axle of the garbage cart.

I’ll give you last reply to stick your tounge out at me or whatever so you can feel you won if that settles this nonsence. OK?

James