Dave's Allegation That Catholics Are Idolators

[papist1]

Dave,

I have seen many people kneel before a toilet, and that is idolatry.

How do you know it was a statue of Mary?  I wish we knew what Mary looked like, that way your calumnous accusation might have a little bit of weight to it, if we did know, factually, and we made statues of her and worshippied her.

ANY Catholic who worships Mary, is an idolator and if they do not repent and turn from their ways, they will stay out of the state of grace and burn for eternity.

Catholics are not taught, nor are they encouraged, nor are they supposed to worship anyone other than God almighty.
ever.

peace

 

[RobbyS]

Xavier:

Not a bad paraphrase, but not quite on target.
You are not permitted to make and worship (bow down to. put ahead of Me) gods of your own making.

Catholic- We do not worship statues.
we do not worship the saints, we do not hold statues, the saints, Mary ahead of God.

NonCatholic- I understand you dont believe that is what you are doing, however even though you dont believe that is what your doing. That is what your doing.

Catholic-Who are you to tell me Im wrong.

NonCatholic- Scripture tells you you are wrong.

Catholic- That is only your interpretation of scripture, Besides I have tradition and the Pope who agrees with me.

NonCatholic- What are the Pope and tradition compared to Gods word.

Catholic- Tradition and pope are from scripture.

NonCatholic–Now your really out of your mind.

Catholic-- This is a Catholic board you have been banned for insulting me.

NonCatholic - I didnt insult you. But Jesus never made Peter pope.

Catholic-- Sure he did. He said I will build my Church on you Peter.

NonCatholic–First off the Church of Christ is built on Jesus second he wasnt even talking about a institution but an assembly of people.

Catholic–You have it all wrong cant you read the bible.

NonCatholic-- Thats what Ive been trying to tell you all along.

Dos it not boil down to choosing between interpretations of Scripture? The iconoclastic teaching which you present here is not knew, but as it has been argued above, the words of the First Commandment must be read in the light of a doctrine which Jews think of as idolotry, that of the incarnation. We bow down before a human being like us in all things except sin. Is it wrong to make a statute of someone who actually lived? Further, if that person was/is God, is it wrong to worship him? We will get to the cae of Mary and other saints later.

 

[Elliott]

Catholocism does not promote idolatry, however it is probable that many are offering worship rather than veneration to Mary & Saints.

 

[Subrosa]

Where’s Dave? He seems to be absent! :ehh:

 

[Xavier]

RobbyS:

Dos it not boil down to choosing between interpretations of Scripture? The iconoclastic teaching which you present here is not knew, but as it has been argued above, the words of the First Commandment must be read in the light of a doctrine which Jews think of as idolotry, that of the incarnation. We bow down before a human being like us in all things except sin. Is it wrong to make a statute of someone who actually lived? Further, if that person was/is God, is it wrong to worship him? We will get to the cae of Mary and other saints later.

Would anyone who worships idols admit to or say, Yes I worship idols?

 

[mercygate]

Xavier:

Would anyone who worships idols admit to or say, Yes I worship idols?

An idol is an image which the “worshiper” believes to be God. So yes, an idol worshiper would be glad to admit that he worships his idol.

 

[Xavier]

mercygate:

An idol is an image which the “worshiper” believes to be God. So yes, an idol worshiper would be glad to admit that he worships his idol.

This thing that was made by human hands which I bow down to that I pray before, is not an idol

 

[Mickey]

Xavier:

This thing that was made by human hands which I bow down to that I pray before, is not an idol

Let’s break this down for you X. Open your mind and your heart and try to understand this.

You see on your wall, the Crucifix. It reminds you of the passion and ressurection of our Lord Jesus Christ. You fall to your knees and begin to pray intensely, even shedding tears of joy because of what our Lord has done for us. Is the crucifix an idol? No.

Now, you have a statue of the sun god ra in your basement. You believe that this is ra and you ask the statue to please make it stop raining because your basement is flooding. Is this idol worship? Yes.

Hope this helps you, X.

 

[Xavier]

Mickey:

Let’s break this down for you X. Open your mind and your heart and try to understand this.

You see on your wall, the Crucifix. It reminds you of the passion and ressurection of our Lord Jesus Christ. You fall to your knees and begin to pray intensely, even shedding tears of joy because of what our Lord has done for us. Is the crucifix an idol? No.

Now, you have a statue of the sun god ra in your basement. You believe that this is ra and you ask the statue to please make it stop raining because your basement is flooding. Is this idol worship? Yes.

Hope this helps you, X.

Let me break it down for you Mickey.
there is coming a day and it is here now when there will be a people that will worship in spirit and in truth.

God is spirit. Mental images block and hamper true worship, that is why there is a prohibition on all idols. This is like asking you to take off you training wheels. It is something which Catholics, for the most part, refuse to do. :crying:

 

[LSK]

I don’t think we “refuse” to take off our training wheels. I think that people living in the real world, raising children, going to work, active in their communities, active in their Parish, washing clothes, making meals, doing yard work, etc. are often overlooked in terms of the prayers they are doing during this time. They are judged only by the times they use symbols and statues to focus their thoughts and help them in prayer.

Look, what most of us refuse to think about is that the accusation that we are Idolators is one that closed-minded people will never let go of - I can testify in a court of law as to my prayer life and Dave will never believe me because I have a beautiful artist’s rendition of Our Lord in the Garden that was passed down to me from my Grandmother in my bedroom, or I have the crucifix that was on my father’s casket on my wall. So, I have learned to say “I do not worship Idols. I am a weak human who sometimes needs an external to help me focus inward as I begin my prayers. That’s how I use the artwork of the Church.” and then pray for those, like Dave, who insist I am lying when I say this and therefore in the grips of a false religion.

 

[Mickey]

Xavier:

Let me break it down for you Mickey.
there is coming a day and it is here now when there will be a people that will worship in spirit and in truth.

God is spirit. Mental images block and hamper true worship, that is why there is a prohibition on all idols. This is like asking you to take off you training wheels. It is something which Catholics, for the most part, refuse to do. :crying:

Okay, let’s try this again. I will urge you to take off **your **training wheels. :banghead:

God created spirit and matter. Matter is good. God gave us the ability to use mental images in this world so that we may worship Him with all our senses–body, soul, and spirit. You have taken a gift that God gave to you–to assist you in this earthly life–and amputated it. However, this is not your fault. Someone taught you revisionist theology, and it is seared into your heart. Only the Grace of God will enable you to understand this. You have been taught that Catholics are idol worshippers. Nothing I say is going to change your false perception. May the Grace of God open your mind and your heart. God Bless.

 

[Axion]

Xavier:

Let me break it down for you Mickey.
there is coming a day and it is here now when there will be a people that will worship in spirit and in truth.

God is spirit. Mental images block and hamper true worship, that is why there is a prohibition on all idols. This is like asking you to take off you training wheels. It is something which Catholics, for the most part, refuse to do. :crying:

This is so much absolute nonsense, most of which has its origin in the philosophy of Islam.

It is Islam that first taught that images “block and hamper” true worship, and from Islam that the heresy of iconoclasm first came into the church.

Solomon’s temple was full of images, some of which, (the giant angels) God commanded to be made and used in worship. These were even bowed down in front of, and sprinkled with the blood of sacrifice! The oldest presently surviving jewish synagogue was full of images. It is quite obvious from this that godly religious images are NOT idols. Idols are images of false gods, which are worshipped - got it?

Hatred of images comes from the Islamic idea that God is distant unfathomable an unapproachable. A faith that denies the Incarnation is possible. But God is not just spirit. God became incarnate. He became a man who walked and showed Himself among men.

And what does the destruction of religious images, which you would advocate, accomplish?

We have seen. It leaves a world where the godly, where reminders of God’s Heavenly Kingdom are removed from our churches, our homes, from our public buildings - from our streets, to be replaced with images of mammon. Images advertising materialism, self-seeking and sexual gratification. Instead of seeing Christ, the Virgin or the deeds of the saints on every street corner, we instead see the latest car, the latest model, the latest consumer offer.

We need more religious images, not less.

 

[Curious]

God is spirit. Mental images block and hamper true worship, that is why there is a prohibition on all idols.

That seems wrong. As someone posted previously, God created us spirit soul and body. We have spiritual, mental, and physical properties to us. God gave us gifts to create beauty, just as He did. That’s like God saying, “Okay, I gave you the desire and the ability to create beautiful art, depicting Faith, but don’t you dare look at it. It will hamper true worship.”

Many people listen to music to worship God and to uplift themselves as they pray or study or whatever. So does God say, “Using music in prayer and worship will hamper your ability to truly worship me?” So we’re to go around in silence with a no mental pictures or physical art, blocking everything out of our minds that might uplift us and glorify God because it’s not worshipping God in spirit and truth? HUH?

 

[Mickey]

Axion:

This is so much absolute nonsense, most of which has its origin in the philosophy of Islam.

It is Islam that first taught that images “block and hamper” true worship, and from Islam that the heresy of iconoclasm first came into the church.

Solomon’s temple was full of images, some of which, (the giant angels) God commanded to be made and used in worship. These were even bowed down in front of, and sprinkled with the blood of sacrifice! The oldest presently surviving jewish synagogue was full of images. It is quite obvious from this that godly religious images are NOT idols. Idols are images of false gods, which are worshipped - got it?

Hatred of images comes from the Islamic idea that God is distant unfathomable an unapproachable. A faith that denies the Incarnation is possible. But God is not just spirit. God became incarnate. He became a man who walked and showed Himself among men.

And what does the destruction of religious images, which you would advocate, accomplish?

We have seen. It leaves a world where the godly, where reminders of God’s Heavenly Kingdom are removed from our churches, our homes, from our public buildings - from our streets, to be replaced with images of mammon. Images advertising materialism, self-seeking and sexual gratification. Instead of seeing Christ, the Virgin or the deeds of the saints on every street corner, we instead see the latest car, the latest model, the latest consumer offer.

We need more religious images, not less.

AMEN!

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_41.gif

 

[Mickey]

Curious:

That seems wrong. As someone posted previously, God created us spirit soul and body. We have spiritual, mental, and physical properties to us. God gave us gifts to create beauty, just as He did. That’s like God saying, “Okay, I gave you the desire and the ability to create beautiful art, depicting Faith, but don’t you dare look at it. It will hamper true worship.”

Many people listen to music to worship God and to uplift themselves as they pray or study or whatever. So does God say, “Using music in prayer and worship will hamper your ability to truly worship me?” So we’re to go around in silence with a no mental pictures or physical art, blocking everything out of our minds that might uplift us and glorify God because it’s not worshipping God in spirit and truth? HUH?

AMEN, AGAIN!

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_12v.gif

 

[Xavier]

Isaiah 2
7 Their land is also full of silver and gold, And there is no end to their treasures; Their land is also full of horses, And there is no end to their chariots. 8 Their land is also full of idols; They worship the work of their own hands, That which their own fingers have made. 9 People bow down, And each man humbles himself; Therefore do not forgive them.

Its real simple, but folks refuse to see it.

 

[mercygate]

Xavier:

God is spirit. Mental images block and hamper true worship, that is why there is a prohibition on all idols. This is like asking you to take off you training wheels. It is something which Catholics, for the most part, refuse to do. :crying:

Quoting myself:

With the Incarnation, the Image of God acquired a human face. What had been “un-imageable” becomes matter, and via the Incarnation, matter becomes, in a particular and living way, sanctified to the experience of the holy.

The use of images may, indeed, be “training wheels” that does not mean that Catholics never get past them.

 

[Church_Militant]

Subrosa:

Where’s Dave? He seems to be absent! :ehh:

He’s only just yesterday returned from his recent suspension, though he never really seemed much interested in this thread when I opened it while he was on before…

 

[Church_Militant]

Isaiah 2
7 Their land is also full of silver and gold, And there is no end to their treasures; Their land is also full of horses, And there is no end to their chariots. 8 Their land is also full of idols; They worship the work of their own hands, That which their own fingers have made. 9 People bow down, And each man humbles himself; Therefore do not forgive them.

Its real simple, but folks refuse to see it.

Just like your refusal to see the facts of both the clear Biblical wording of the 1st commandment and the clear, concise, and honest answers of Catholics who know what they believe and what we do and do not do. You promote your manmade beliefs (that of your preachers and teachers over all honest evidence to the contrary) and then come in here and tell US that we follow the doctrines of men? I’d laugh if I could find anything funny about it. Instead all I can do is point this out to you (again) and wonder at your blindness.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Mickey]

Church Militant:

Just like your refusal to see the facts of both the clear Biblical wording of the 1st commandment and the clear, concise, and honest answers of Catholics who know what they believe and what we do and do not do. You promote your manmade beliefs (that of your preachers and teachers over all honest evidence to the contrary) and then come in here and tell US that we follow the doctrines of men? I’d laugh if I could find anything funny about it. Instead all I can do is point this out to you (again) and wonder at your blindness.
Pax vobiscum,

You tell him Church Militant!smileys.smileycentral.com/cus/e_1_37.gif