Dave's Allegation That Catholics Are Idolators

[wcknight]

I love Mary as much as I love my own mother, and as much as I love my wife. She is not God, but I know she will listen to my prayers and ask God to grant my request. Just as I used to ask my mother to negotiate what I wanted with my father.
I pray that the saints like wise will pray for me also. I need all the help I can get. I honor and respect them as much as I do any real heros. They are not gods, and I don’t worship them or Mary either.

I don’t happen to have any statues in my home as my wife in non Catholic. I do have a few pictures, but I also have pictures of my parents and grandparents, and other relatives also. I don’t worship those pictures and I don’t worship any statues or pictures of Mary or the saints.

However I love Mary and the saints just as I love members of my own family.

I don’t have any problems with people who do have statues, we just choose not to.

Actually, come to think of it I do have one statue bought just last year. It is of an angel, looks rather real. but can’t say i’ve worshipped or prayed to it… at least not lately anyway

wc

As we say in every mass before Communion: “All honor and glory are yours Almighty Father, forever and ever. Amen”

 

[CreosMary]

Gen:1-26
Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness;…
So it seems we are a graven image of God in ourselves, I have heard of people worshipping themselves but?..makes ya think dont it?

Xavier et al,
I am a convert from athiesm, 7years Catholic this May and I have a great devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary and have found her most helpful in coming to my understanding of Christ and his Church, She leads me to Christ constantly.
I have devotions to St Mary Magdalen, Blessed Mother Teresa the list goes on. Can you tell me Mother Teresa is not a Holy woman and that God would not listen to her prayers, even the ones I ask her to pray for me?
During my days in the wilderness I tried lots of things but coming into Holy Mother Church was/is coming home!
I am now at peace after 25 years of drug addiction and I know my dead grandparents had been praying for my conversion.

 

[Peace-bwu]

OhioBob:

I’ve seen Protestants kneeling next to their beds. They must worship mattresses!

“Only at mattress Giant!.. OOOh AAAhhh”

hopefully you have heard this annoying commercial…so you get it!"

 

[Jimmy_B]

Styree:

It would seem to me that this idea of Catholics worshipping idols must die out eventually. How many fundamentalist types went to see Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of the Christ”? Millions, as I recall. Now, what is a motion picture but a series of “idols” flashing across the screen to simulate motion to the human eye. Are the Fundalmentalists guilty of idol worshipping if the watch a religious movie like this, especially if they have an emotional and spiritual reaction? Were they guilty of worshipping Jim Cavizel or his prophet Mel while watching that movie? What is the difference between looking at a statue of Mary, or seeing her protrayed on the big screen? We Catholics know that art can raise you up toward God, which is why we have the most beautiful churches in the world (or at least we did, contemporary architecture is horrible, give me an old fashioned gothic church anyday). How long are they are they going to be able to use video media to promote their message and still claim that all graven images are against God?

I don’t like they way your post is worded.

Catholics don’t worship Idols. Idol worship is a sin. Only God is worshiped. Catholics venerate Mary, big difference.

Webster Dictionary

Main Entry: ven·er·ate
Pronunciation: 've-n&-"rAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -at·ed; -at·ing
Etymology: Latin *veneratus, *past participle of *venerari, *from *vener-, venus *love, charm – more at WIN
1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion
synonym see REVERE

• ven·er·a·tor /-"rA-t&r/ noun

The Church distinguishes emphatically between cultus dulia*,* which translates as “the homage of veneration,” and cultus latria*,* which signifies “the worship of adoration.”

Veneration is paid to the Saints; a higher form of it, called hyperdulia, is given to the Mother of God; but adoration is given to no one but God. Any attempt to give it to a creature would certainly be false worship - but the Catholic Church has never given it. She adores God and God only.

 

[deb1]

Hello,

I’d like to ask a probably silly question, but one I’d like to see answered anyway. What is exactly is a ‘graven image.’ I ask because some of the posts seem to sidestep the question of whether Catholics worship or venerate Mary by suggesting that the simple act of having a statue is wrong. Is that what Xavier is suggesting? That anything made in the likeness of one of God’s creations is wrong to own? I ask this in all seriousness-and perhaps I am being stupid-do you not believe in owning non religious works of art? Are Photos wrong? I’m not being disrespectful, just curious. It is very possible that I am misreading your posts Xavier and I am sorry if I have. It would be easier for me to understand your opinion if your could clear this up.

 

[Church_Militant]

Hi deb 1!
Welcome!
A graven image according to the context of the 1st commandment is anything that a person would construct in order to give it the worship that is due only to God. Now, that said, it could also include anything that we choose to make more important than God in our lives, such as money, career, or power. The Catechism of the Catholic Church gets into it more here: christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/comm1.html#GRAVEN so you can peruse that at your convenience.

Islam forbids the display of ANY images (It’s called Iconoclasm, this forbidding) and the iconoclastic heresies that have arisen in Christianity were the result of Islamic influence in about the 800’s. you can find that history here at New Advent: newadvent.org/cathen/07620a.htm

(Note to all and sundry
The discussion of Mary is not germaine per se to this thread as the original post is about the contention by some non-Catholics that we worship the statues and icons that we pray before. This, of course, is patently untrue, yet some of these posters refuse to accept that, maintaining the Moslem position, despte all the evidence that I and other Catholics have shown them.

Please feel free to ask any questions that you want…the only dumb ones are the ones that we DON’T ask.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Wildgraywolf]

teresas1979:
I have now visited the website that you claim the picture is from and have been unable to locate it there. Funny how I have gone to this anti-Catholic website (when I am not anti Catholic) and copied a picture which isn’t there (well I can’t find it anyway).
The image comes from the apparition of Mary in Amsterdam, Holland to Ida Peerdeman in 1945. Here’s some links:

de-vrouwe.net/english/ This is the official website.

ladyofallnations.org/

ladyofallnations.org/print1.htm.

teresas1979:
If the Catholic Church approves the image why isn’t it available from one of their sources (plenty of others are)? And if the Church does not approve it then what the priest says is legitimate…

This apparition has been approved the local bishop. Here are a couple of links to Marian apparitions:

miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/approved_table.html

apparitions.org/

 

[reggie]

Thanks for the link to the website. I think this is a beautiful picture and the prayer is also. What I would like to have answered is…
What do the words above the image say?

 

[gelsbern]

Here is how I explain praying to Mary and the saints to protestants.

---

There are several definitions of pray.

The main one being to address God

Another being:

I pray,or (by ellipsis) Pray, I beg; I request; I
entreat you; – used in asking a question, making a
request, introducing a petition, etc.; as, Pray, allow me
to go.

When we pray to a saint, we are making a request, that they pray for us to God.

The Catholic Church believes in the communion of saints, this is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth (Church Militant), the souls in purgatory (Church Suffering) and the saints in heaven (Church Triumphant) in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head.

What does this mean? It means that just because a person dies, they don’t lose communion with those on earth or in heaven if they are one of the faithful.

You walk into church and you hear, “Pray for me, I am having an operation next month”, “Say a prayer for me to help me find a new job” etc. All the time we are asking people to pray for us, and we are being asked to pray for for people. Yes we pray to God, but the person who you are praying for, by the definition of the word, prayed to you to pray for them. Are they worshipping you? Definitely not. Are you worshipping the people who you ask to pray for you? Nope.

So now we get to all the saints, and to the Blessed Mother of our Lord, Mary. These people lived to bring glory to God, they are in heaven, right next to God, who better to ask to pray for you than someone who has found favor with the Lord? If the prayers of your neighbor who is alive is ok, why is it wrong to ask a saint to pray for you? In fact, And I can’t think of anyone better I would want to have praying for me. Just because they are in heaven, doesn’t mean you still can’t communicate with them, and so we pray to them to pray for us to God. Are we worshipping them? No. .

As far as statues and pictures of saints and Mary, we look at those to bring to mind their saintly lives or the special place they had in God’s plan for our salvation. We honor them for living a life that was pleasing to God, a life for which we all should strive.

Have you ever been to a play or musical, and wanted a picture of an actor or singer? Have you even gone so far as to get their autograph? Does this mean you are worshipping them when you look at that picture or do you simply admire them for their talent and skills? It’s no different than how Catholics view the statues and pictures. Is it worshipping them? No.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

reggie:

Thanks for the link to the website. I think this is a beautiful picture and the prayer is also. What I would like to have answered is…
What do the words above the image say?

It’s “The Lady of All Nations” in dutch.

 

[Styree]

I don’t like they way your post is worded.

Catholics don’t worship Idols. Idol worship is a sin. Only God is worshiped. Catholics venerate Mary, big difference.

Jimmy B, I think if you read the post again, you will see that I am applying Protestant beliefs to their logical conclusions. I know, that we don’t worship idols, I merely pointed out that spending two hours fixated on a movie or television screen watching images flash past is no different than focusing on a crucifix or other static artwork. Thus Protestants who watch a video media which protrays Christ, or some other biblical personage, is engaging in hypocrisy of the first order when they say we are idol worshippers. But as Catholics we know that our statues and other images are merely art designed to inspire us, as was Mel’s movie, so there is no idol worship, deliberately or otherwise. I also surmised that this self-evident truth will eventually do away with these allegations of idol worship, although that may be wishful thinking on my part.

In His Mercy,
Sam

 

[Martin_Luther]

Hello Everyone!

I would agree with the initial poster that I think Catholics do practice idolatry. Here are some problems in the logic of what was just posted:

I like how bowing down to someone automatically equals worship (see all the pope pictures on that site). So I guess when I had to bow to my square dance partner in 5th grade gym class, I was worshipping her.

This is very much confusing issues. We are speaking in the context of religious worship. Within the context of religious worship, God is the only one who is to be honored. To equate “I think you are pretty” with “Mary, mother of God, save me on the day of my death” is to equate two things that have nothing to do with one another.

We acknowledge that she can bring special gifts to us when we ask her to intercede for us to her Son. After all, don’t most mothers have their requests answered in the positive when they ask their sons? When we read scripture we can see how Jesus honored His Mother . Shouldn’t we do the same?

First of all, we are absolutely forbidden from contacting the dead in any form:

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.

Notice that calling on the dead is equated with witchcraft, sorcery, and interpreting omens. In fact, all throughout the Old Testament we have contact with the dead taken very seriously. In fact, King Saul was judged very harshly for trying to contact the dead. Look at what happened to him:

1 Chronicles 10:13-14 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14 and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

First of all, protestants are not down on Mary. She was the mother of the savior, highly blessed among women. She was a beautiful example to us of faith, and how we should live our lives as Christians. Second, all mothers are to be honored in the same way Jesus honored Mary. Hence, that doesn’t really make any sense.

I have many statues of Mary and Jesus in my home. Many of them are blessed. I have never prayed to any of these “things”. They do help me focus on God and how I should live my life. They are a daily beautiful reminder.

Catholics don’t worship Idols. Idol worship is a sin. Only God is worshiped. Catholics venerate Mary, big difference.

Let’s think about this logically. Many people have said that they do not pray to statues, but to the things represented by the statutes. Does that mean that I can kneel before a statue of Baal and pray to Baal, and then if someone complains just say “Well, I wasn’t praying to the statue just what was represented by the statue. It doesn’t matter anyway, because I worship God and I only venerate Baal. Hence, there is no problem.”? Obviously, if someone said that to Moses, they would be stoned in a second.

I’ve seen Protestants kneeling next to their beds. They must worship mattresses!

Actually we kneel over our beds. It is also completely irrelevant because we don’t pray to something in the representation of a mattress, and ask for it’s intercession.

God does not share his glory, honor, and service with anyone. When you enter into religious worship, God is the only one who is to be venerated.

I know I have seemed rather harsh, but I think this is important. How we worship God is important as, in the Old Testament, people were killed for not doing it properly. Hence, I think we should examine ourselves and how we worship.

God Bless,
Martin Luther

 

[Genesis315]

First of all, we are absolutely forbidden from contacting the dead in any form

Mary and the Saints are not dead. There’s that whole thing about everlasting life…

Let’s think about this logically. Many people have said that they do not pray to statues, but to the things represented by the statutes. Does that mean that I can kneel before a statue of Baal and pray to Baal, and then if someone complains just say “Well, I wasn’t praying to the statue just what was represented by the statue. It doesn’t matter anyway, because I worship God and I only venerate Baal. Hence, there is no problem.”? Obviously, if someone said that to Moses, they would be stoned in a second.

Well first of all, you mistake prayer with wroship. A prayer is simply a request. Second of all, Baal is a false god. Mary and the Saints are not gods and are not treated as gods.

 

[Kotton]

Jimmy B:

I don’t like they way your post is worded.

I don’t know how Jimmy misread the post.

Sam gave a very well presented explanation of what he meant. That was the very way I had read the post as I came upon it.

Kotton

 

[Genesis315]

First of all, we are absolutely forbidden from contacting the dead in any form

By your logic, when Jesus had that whole meeting with Elijah and Moses He was sinning.

 

[Xavier]

Martin Luther:

Hello Everyone!

I would agree with the initial poster that I think Catholics do practice idolatry. Here are some problems in the logic of what was just posted:

This is very much confusing issues. We are speaking in the context of religious worship. Within the context of religious worship, God is the only one who is to be honored. To equate “I think you are pretty” with “Mary, mother of God, save me on the day of my death” is to equate two things that have nothing to do with one another.

When we speak of worship —to bow down. It is our spirit man that bows down. To kneel or to physically bow down is just an expression of what our spirit man is doing. To kneel before a statue and to pray to a saint, or to ask that saint to pray, is our spirit bowing down?

First of all, we are absolutely forbidden from contacting the dead in any form:

Notice that calling on the dead is equated with witchcraft, sorcery, and interpreting omens. In fact, all throughout the Old Testament we have contact with the dead taken very seriously. In fact, King Saul was judged very harshly for trying to contact the dead. Look at what happened to him:

You are abxolutely correct on this.

First of all, protestants are not down on Mary. She was the mother of the savior, highly blessed among women. She was a beautiful example to us of faith, and how we should live our lives as Christians. Second, all mothers are to be honored in the same way Jesus honored Mary. Hence, that doesn’t really make any sense.

Let’s think about this logically. Many people have said that they do not pray to statues, but to the things represented by the statutes. Does that mean that I can kneel before a statue of Baal and pray to Baal, and then if someone complains just say “Well, I wasn’t praying to the statue just what was represented by the statue. It doesn’t matter anyway, because I worship God and I only venerate Baal. Hence, there is no problem.”? Obviously, if someone said that to Moses, they would be stoned in a second.

I think a better example would be If you knelt before a statue of baal but prayed to Jesus, is this a holy prayer?

Actually we kneel over our beds. It is also completely irrelevant because we don’t pray to something in the representation of a mattress, and ask for it’s intercession.

I never answered this or of Jesus talking with Eliajah and Moses because both questions are just foolishness.

God does not share his glory, honor, and service with anyone. When you enter into religious worship, God is the only one who is to be venerated.

I know I have seemed rather harsh, but I think this is important. How we worship God is important as, in the Old Testament, people were killed for not doing it properly. Hence, I think we should examine ourselves and how we worship.

God Bless,
Martin Luther

Please repeat this again, and again, and again!!!

 

[Martin_Luther]

Hello Everyone!

Wow, that was fast!

Mary and the Saints are not dead. There’s that whole thing about everlasting life…

I have heard this argument before, and have in fact done a study which I have just repeated. The Hebrew term used here is mūt which means “to die.” In Deuteronomy 18:11 is in the qal participle form, and used as a noun. If you do a study of the usages of this phrase in the literature of the tenach, what you will find is that there is only one place where it is used to mean “spiritually dead” and that is in that Psalms [Psalm 115:17]. Most Hebrew scholars will agree with me that, because of this, “dead” in Deuteronomy 18:11 refers to physical death, because of the fact that the only usage of “spiritually dead” is in the Psalms. The reason is that in Hebrew exegesis you have to consider the type of literature that is being presented [See Robert Crolshom’s *From Exegesis to Exposition A Practical Guide to Using Biblical Hebrew]. The Psalms have a tendency, because they are poetry, to use words in metaphorical fashions. Hence, the fact that this word is not used in any other way in neither the prophets, and expecially not in the Torah is conclusive to the idea that we are referring to physical death. Also, note that in this same passage [18:16] to refer to physical death, and thus it strenghens my interpretation, and hence there is virtually no warrant for taking the qal participle of mūt to mean “spiritually dead.”

Well first of all, you mistake prayer with wroship. A prayer is simply a request. Second of all, Baal is a false god. Mary and the Saints are not gods and are not treated as gods.

Ok, if that is the case, then can I not just request [pray for] something of Baal? Also, I would just say that I am not treating Baal as a god, I am just asking for his help and intercession to the one true God. Would that be alright then?

By your logic, when Jesus had that whole meeting with Elijah and Moses He was sinning.

Let’s compare that passage with another passage from the book of Revelation:

** Matthew 17:2 **And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.

**Revelation 1:13-16 **and in the middle of the lampstands *I saw *one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet *were *like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice *was *like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.

Obviously, these two passages are parallel. Jesus was transformed into his glorified state at the mount of transfiguration. Hence, as the glorified God man, he was not a mere human. If Jesus had not been transfigured, then what I said would have applied. The only way you could do what Jesus did is if you were the God man, and you could reveal your full glory as God making your colthes glow, and your face shine, then that passage would apply. It doesn’t, you are just a mere human [which was the context of my statement], and hence, you are still under obligation to keep the command to not contact the dead.

Thanks for the replies!

God Bless,
Martin Luther

 

[mtr01]

Martin Luther:

Hello Everyone!
This is very much confusing issues. We are speaking in the context of religious worship. Within the context of religious worship, God is the only one who is to be honored. To equate “I think you are pretty” with “Mary, mother of God, save me on the day of my death” is to equate two things that have nothing to do with one another.

Hello M.L.,

Respectfully, I suggest you have a great misunderstanding of what worship means. Of course, the word “worship” has evolved in meaning since it’s earliest forms, but in order to understand the Catholic view of worship (which your namesake adhered to), you must understand the difference among *dulia, hyperdulia, *and latria.

There is a very good explanation of this distinction here. I suggest that you read the article and understand it before posting on this topic again, because without making this distinction, you are severely misrepresenting not only the Catholic position, but the one held by Martin Luther as well.
Martin Luther:

First of all, protestants are not down on Mary. She was the mother of the savior, highly blessed among women. She was a beautiful example to us of faith, and how we should live our lives as Christians. Second, all mothers are to be honored in the same way Jesus honored Mary. Hence, that doesn’t really make any sense.

Martin Luther:

God does not share his glory, honor, and service with anyone. When you enter into religious worship, God is the only one who is to be venerated.

I know I have seemed rather harsh, but I think this is important. How we worship God is important as, in the Old Testament, people were killed for not doing it properly. Hence, I think we should examine ourselves and how we worship.

Why don’t we take a look at what your namesake had to say about the veneration of the Blessed Virgin, Our Lady:

“The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.”

(Sermon, September 1, 1522)

“[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.” (Sermon, Christmas, 1531)

“No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.” (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537)

“One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.” (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)

“It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother, Christ is his brother, God is his father.” (Sermon, Christmas, 1522)

“Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.” (Sermon, Christmas, 1529)

As you can see, Martin Luther’s view on devotion to, and veneration of, the Blessed Virgin is very much like the Catholic practice as described on this thread. This fact brings to mind another question…if you are posting using his name, why are your views so contradictory to Luther’s? Perhaps you are mistaken in your views?
Martin Luther:

God Bless,
Martin Luther

May God abundantly bless you also.

 

[Kotton]

MARTIN LUTHER:

I would agree with the initial poster that I think Catholics do practice idolatry. Here are some problems in the logic of what was just posted:

*Quote: So I guess when I had to bow to my square dance partner in 5th grade gym class, I was worshipping her. *

This is very much confusing issues. We are speaking in the context of religious worship.

Of course we are speaking in context of religion, but can’t you see the humor in such applications?

*Quote:We acknowledge that she can bring special gifts to us when we ask her to intercede for us to her Son. *

First of all, we are absolutely forbidden from contacting the dead in any form:

As Genesis said, they are not dead, but even more alive in Christ than us. Why can they not pray for us as our friends on earth do?

Notice that calling on the dead is equated with witchcraft, sorcery, and interpreting omens.

We acknowledge this, but we are not calling on the dead for advice. Asking for prayers is not the same. It is only through GOD that such contact with saints is possible.

First of all, protestants are not down on Mary. She was the mother of the savior, highly blessed among women. She was a beautiful example to us of faith, and how we should live our lives as Christians. Second, all mothers are to be honored in the same way Jesus honored Mary.

While I read this often, I find that many seem to ignore her except at Christmas.

*Quote:I have many statues of Mary and Jesus in my home. Many of them are blessed. I have never prayed to any of these “things”. They do help me focus on God and how I should live my life. They are a daily beautiful reminder.

Catholics don’t worship Idols. Idol worship is a sin. Only God is worshiped. Catholics venerate Mary, big difference. *

Let’s think about this logically. Many people have said that they do not pray to statues, but to the things represented by the statutes. Does that mean that I can kneel before a statue of Baal and pray to Baal, and then if someone complains just say “Well, I wasn’t praying to the statue just what was represented by the statue. It doesn’t matter anyway, because I worship God and I only venerate Baal. Hence, there is no problem.”?

This is commmplete nonsense, since Baal is a false god, you do not even venerate him.

Quote:I’ve seen Protestants kneeling next to their beds. They must worship mattresses!

Actually we kneel over our beds. It is also completely irrelevant because we don’t pray to something in the representation of a mattress, and ask for it’s intercession.

Again you fail to see the humor. How is it you kneel OVER the bed? Is it that small.

God does not share his glory, honor, and service with anyone. When you enter into religious worship, God is the only one who is to be venerated.

God is the only one to be WORSHIPED, veneration is showing respect to someone special…(Saints).

I know I have seemed rather harsh, but I think this is important. How we worship God is important as, in the Old Testament, people were killed for not doing it properly. Hence, I think we should examine ourselves and how we worship.

Very true, and that is what this thread is all about.

Kotton

 

[Martin_Luther]

Hello Xavier!

When we speak of worship —to bow down. It is our spirit man that bows down. To kneel or to physically bow down is just an expression of what our spirit man is doing. To kneel before a statue and to pray to a saint, or to ask that saint to pray, is our spirit bowing down?

I would disagree with the premise. Our actions show what is in our heart. Hence, if we bow down to something within the context of a religious practice, it shows the idolatry in our heart.

I think a better example would be If you knelt before a statue of baal but prayed to Jesus, is this a holy prayer?

Don’t know how in the world this is at all relevant. I was addressing the idea that one can bow to a statue and yet only be praying the the person that statue represents. That had nothing to do if you were bowing before a statue of a person to whom you weren’t praying. However, in all fairness I will answer your question. No, within the context of religious practice, no graven images are to be bowed to. That is clearly stated in Exodus 20:4-5.

There is a very good explanation of this distinction here. I suggest that you read the article and understand it before posting on this topic again, because without making this distinction, you are severely misrepresenting not only the Catholic position, but the one held by Martin Luther as well.

I do understand the distinction. I just don’t believe the distinction is biblical. I have studied systematic theology for quite a while now, so I am aware of it. I am not trying to say that you say you worship Mary and the saints. I am trying to say that because of your distinction, you do end up worshipping Mary and the saints.

As far as Martin Luther goes, I think there have been many articles written on Luther’s mariology. James Swan has written some articles on this topic:

ntrmin.org/The%20Roman%20Catholic%20Understanding%20of%20Martin%20Luther%201.htm

ntrmin.org/Catholic%20Understanding%20of%20Luther%202.htm

It is irrelevant anyways. Yes, I respect Martin Luther, and the things that he did, so much so that I am willing to use his name. However, I also respect Aselin Debison as a musician, and would gladly use her name in the context of a music setting. However, that does not mean that I think she is not a sinner and would agree with vertually everything she did. Hence, I am trying to be a consistent Martin Luther if you will, and do what is right.

God Bless,
Martin Luther