Dave's Allegation That Catholics Are Idolators

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Ani Ibi:
Sacred Art:
  1. The first printing press was when? Round about the time of Luther? That left a lot of Christians without Bibles for a few centuries. OK a lot of centuries.
  2. And even if people could have Bibles, over 90% of the Church couldn’t read.
  3. Sacred art was one means of teaching.
  4. Sacred art was one means of praying, particularly on the part of the artist who struggled to use his or her gift to glorify God.
But oh nooooooo. Because buddy can read, because buddy has a Bible, then all us no-goodnik Catholics had to have had something wrong with us for not inventing the printing press sooner. It must have been a conspiracy to keep sola scriptura from the masses. Yes, that was what it was. A conspiracy. Why, just thinking about all those centuries without the printing press just fills a person up with righteousness indignation, doesn’t it?

D-OH!
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:rotfl: I’m sorry, That was just too funny.
 
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teresas1979:
http://www.remnantofgod.org/marycross.jpg
Showing Mary on the cross instead of Jesus has to be pushing it, surely. Even most Catholics must agree that this is dangerous?

“When I see someone kneeling down in prayer in front of a this image, I do not assume they are worshipping the image. Just as I would not assume, if I were to see you bowing down in front of your bed in prayer, that you were worshipping your bed.” A very devout Catholic gave me this as an answer to the above image being used in prayer.

In reply I would have to say something like this: (NB some of this answer is my own thoughts, other parts were emailed to me by a friend).

"3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" Ex. 20.

Let’s keep it in full context: defining what gods and idolatry is.

The first thing we see is “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” What would make a god?

This would:

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. Ooookay…so, a graven image would be a god. What would be a graven image?

This would be:

“…or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:”

Anything that shows any likeness of:
  1. that is in heaven above,
  2. that is in the earth beneath,
  3. that is in the water,
  4. under the earth.
A graven image would be an image that would be in any likeness that is in any of these things.

Mary, was she in the earth? Yes

Is she in heaven? Yes.

So, when you make that image, it became a graven image…a god.

Now, what is idolatry? Let’s go back to Exodus and see. After the Bible defines what a graven image is, it further says:

“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:”

When you bow before that graven image of Mary, you committed idolatry, thus worshipping another god according to the highest authority, God’s Word.

We don’t have to assume that they are worshipping. According to the Word of God, when we see someone do this, we KNOW that they are worshipping.

A bed is not made for worship…or in the likeness of anything. A bed is made for sleeping, thus if someone knelt down beside their bed to pray, it wouldn’t be worship.
Common sense
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"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
What would be a graven image?
any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"
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If we remain that pointed God Himself is found in the sights.
Mary is not in those sights because Catholics believe only Jesus came from heaven.
 
Believe me or don’t, but I stand by my assertion–otherwise, how would I have found that exact picture (and so quickly too!) at remnantofgod.org/ ? on the page called Catholics worship Mary. I certainly do not visit such rubbish myself.
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THAT (the claim a priest sent it to you) is the falshood to which I referred. Granted–I have no proof and I (guess) a priest could have been checking out anti-catholic websites and just thought it would be a good pic to send you…
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:hmmm:

I have now visited the website that you claim the picture is from and have been unable to locate it there. Funny how I have gone to this anti-Catholic website (when I am not anti Catholic) and copied a picture which isn’t there (well I can’t find it anyway).

You can dress it up any way you want but in saying that a priest did not send the picture when I said he did is calling me a liar and to claim otherwise is just doublespeak. Why would I deny where the picture came from? And why wouldn’t I use the pictures of the Pope which are there plainly to be seen for my argument if that was my intent?

And most importantly, if there is nothing wrong with the picture, why isn’t it on a Catholic site? You have all said the picture is legitimate veneration of Mary, so why did you have to go to an anti-Catholic website to find it? I, on the other hand, did not go anywhere to find it as it was sent to me by a devout Catholic priest who was saddened that Mary was portrayed as the “cross bearer” with no reference to Jesus. The issue he had is where does this image show that she took up Jesus’ cross and followed Him? Where is her humility and devotion to Our Lord?

If the Catholic Church approves the image why isn’t it available from one of their sources (plenty of others are)? And if the Church does not approve it then what the priest says is legitimate…
 
You can dress it up any way you want but in saying that a priest did not send the picture when I said he did is calling me a liar and to claim otherwise is just doublespeak. Why would I deny where the picture came from?
[/quote]

:yawn: Whatever…I can’t fathom why a Catholic would say half the things your posts do…and I called you on it. If anything–I implied you’re a liar–you claim to be Catholic, but espouse UN-Catholic philosophies. You say such things as, “We don’t have to assume that they are worshipping. According to the Word of God, when we see someone do this, we KNOW that they are worshipping.” Who is “we” and “they”–if you are Catholic?

I already apologized for being “reactionary” I’m not apologizing for calling it like I see it, so if you’re waiting for that…see you at the ressurection;) --I’ve done nothing wrong.

This is foolish to have a public argument–PM me if there’s any more–…can this be over now? :tiphat:
And most importantly, if there is nothing wrong with the picture, why isn’t it on a Catholic site?
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There’s nothing wrong w/ the picture–it’s what you and that web site said about it that was wrong.
 
teresas1979 said:
:hmmm:it was sent to me by a devout Catholic priest who was saddened that Mary was portrayed as the “cross bearer” with no reference to Jesus.
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Mary is not portrayed as the cross bearer. She is standing on a globe in front of the cross. Granted, I can’t see her hands so it is ambiguous. One would expect a cross bearer to be bowed, however, with the weight of the cross.

I can’t say with any certainty that this image is not on any Catholic sites because there are many Catholic sites and I am not going on a rabbit chase.

The priest may be devout, but he is going to have to cough up where he got this image and he is going to have to explain why he thinks Mary is the cross bearer. So please ask the priest to post an explanation here.

Even if Mary is portrayed as the cross bearer, what’s his point? We all have our crosses to bear. The reference to Jesus is by means of the cross.

Catholic teaching on Mary is available at Vatican.com.

The anti-Catholic website, by the way, is repulsive imho.
 
Whoa now I’m really weirded out. All the Mary pictures on my screen just disappeared, leaving red x’s and the link to that Remnant of God site doesn’t work anymore.
 
Ani Ibi:
Whoa now I’m really weirded out. All the Mary pictures on my screen just disappeared, leaving red x’s and the link to that Remnant of God site doesn’t work anymore.
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Ani–I think it’s your computer…no conspiracy…👍 And, if I may…just stay away from garbage like that site…We don’t have to go looking for hatred, it just comes in a flaming paper bag on our doorstep…😃
 
The anti-Catholic website, by the way, is repulsive imho.
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I agree - it wasn’t me who even mentioned it but st-felicity. She provided a link to a website as evidence that I lied. I only went to the website to see what she was accusing me of and did not find the picture I supposedly copied fromthere. I had never even heard of the site until she provided the link to it.
 
Church Militant:
Originally Posted by oudave
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You, and Dave (whoever he or she is) are just dumb. You couldn’t properly give worship to God if you had a manual, ie: the bible.

May the fleas of one thousand camels infest you at the armpits.

And I also think that you smell.

Prester John
 
Prester John:
You, and Dave (whoever he or she is) are just dumb. You couldn’t properly give worship to God if you had a manual, ie: the bible.

May the fleas of one thousand camels infest you at the armpits.

And I also think that you smell.

Prester John
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:rotfl: Oh my!!! That’s great! 'bout time we got a little levity here!
 
Prester John:
You, and Dave (whoever he or she is) are just dumb. You couldn’t properly give worship to God if you had a manual, ie: the bible.

May the fleas of one thousand camels infest you at the armpits.

And I also think that you smell.

Prester John
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PJ,
You might better re-read my posts and then maybe offer some semblance of am apology…you went off half-cocked. You’d be wise to be more like your name-sake.
Pax vobiscum,

That’s “levity”?
 
Church Militant:
That’s “levity”?
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Maybe I read it wrong…I took it as a response to some of the cat-scratching I was involved in–pointing out that the posts had deteriorated from meaningful comment…(i’m a little narcissistic)

I absolutely do not wish you fleas and I certainly don’t think you stink!:o

Forgive me if his intent was wrong…
 
Church Militant:
LOL

http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/laughing.gif
Could we now get back on topic…

The remnant of God site is an SDA site by someone who claims to have been Catholic, he sets up some nice straw men and seems to have a good time knockin’ 'em all down.SSDD
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What I don’t understand is why is it okay for pictures and photos of family member,and what about stuffed animals for children?The little collectables people buy and nothing is said at all about graven images.It seems to me like a total double standard.God Bless
 
I like how bowing down to someone automatically equals worship (see all the pope pictures on that site). So I guess when I had to bow to my square dance partner in 5th grade gym class, I was worshipping her. :whacky:
 
Church Militant:
Originally Posted by oudave
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Kneeling before the stature of Mary is worship? That is incorrect.
Mary, as the Mother of our Lord and through Jesus’s gift of Mary as OUR mother at his death, we acknowledge that she has a special place in our lives and hearts.
We acknowledge that she can bring special gifts to us when we ask her to intercede for us to her Son. After all, don’t most mothers have their requests answered in the positive when they ask their sons? When we read scripture we can see how Jesus honored His Mother . Shouldn’t we do the same?
Mary has interceded in my life and the life of my family and brought us much grace and we honor her by praying the rosary, which we try to do daily.
maggiec
 
But oh nooooooo. Because buddy can read, because buddy has a Bible, then all us no-goodnik Catholics had to have had something wrong with us for not inventing the printing press sooner. It must have been a conspiracy to keep sola scriptura from the masses. Yes, that was what it was. A conspiracy. Why, just thinking about all those centuries without the printing press just fills a person up with righteousness indignation, doesn’t it?
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:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

And now a brief hijack to say hello. Been gone for a few days and missed this place!!!

Hijack over
 
I have many statues of Mary and Jesus in my home. Many of them are blessed. I have never prayed to any of these “things”. They do help me focus on God and how I should live my life. They are a daily beautiful reminder.

Read your catechism. Or go to www.newadvent.com or go through this website. You will find the truth.

God Bless You!
Donna
 
worship involves sacrifice. since no sacrifice is offerred to mary or the saints, there is no worship. i would challenge that the only time a protestant worships is when the sacrifice (be it money, time, resources, themselves) for God. the singing isn’t worship folks, it’s praise, there is a difference.
 
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