S
st_felicity
Guest
Now…your profile says you ARE Catholic…is this another falsehood?
- Status
T
teresas1979
Guest
Firstly, what do you mean by another falsehood? And secondly, I am Catholic in the sense that I was Baptised, Made Confession and First Holy Communion and was Confirmed in the Catholic Church. I have been told by priests, bishops and many Catholics that this means I am Catholic and although I currently do not attend Mass this does not mean I am not Catholic, but that I have not fulfilled all my duties. Now if you know something they don’t, feel free to share it with me and I will change my profile to reflect what “Saint Felicity” thinks is appropriate.
I have been told by Catholics themselves that they worship Mary, especially when I was in Lourdes and I wished to discuss the point as that was what the thread is about. Start a new thread asking: does Teresa worship the Lord sufficiently? and that will be the issue up for discussion. Until then, the debate is still about whether Catholics commit idolatry in bowing before images, especially of Mary and I fail to see how my weakness as a human in relation to God has relevance to this.
G
Genesis315
Guest
Again, you are saying we make Mary an equal to God (maybe some people do, and those people are in the wrong, but your average pious Catholic does not). How do you know who is making Mary equal to God? You say people have told you they do. Well, then you are right to criticize those people. Most of us that pray before a statue do not worship that person, never mind worship them as an equal to God (unless it is a statue of Jesus, then we are worshipping Him as an equal to God—but not the statue remember).
You talk about public “worship,” so you must witness people praying before a statue. And you assume they are worshipping the statue. How is that worse than what I have assumed about you?
I know how I am acting when I pray before a statue. You say doing that makes Mary equal to God. Well, I’m just saying that if that were true, since I venerate Mary, then that would mean I venerate God. Obviously, you think they are made equal because they are both worshipped. Since you mistake Catholics’ veneration of Mary for worship, you obviously think worship and veneration are the same. Therefore, it follows that you would also confuse worship of God with mere veneration of Him. So how do I know you just don’t venerate God? The same way you assume Catholics worship Mary
See, it doesn’t feel too hot to have people tell you that you don’t worship God how you should. Obviously no one can worship Him completely as we should (a good point by you), but we can all do our very best to strive for worshipping as we should. Likewise, accusing us of idolatry is the same as accusing you of only venerating God. Neither one is appropriate. Now do you see my point?
T
teresas1979
Guest
Yes I do see you point. However, I was pointing out Biblical research about idolatry in the context of this thread. You presumed that I (specifically me) worship God in a particular way of which there is no evidence, whereas I said that Catholics (a general term to mean an unspecific group of people) may be commiting idolatry by praying in a way which the said Bible study provides evidence towards. Together with the fact that some “Catholics” (although in this context the word should be used loosely) admit to praising Mary higher than God I backed up my claims with evidence.
It was not me who accused you of idolatry, it was someone else on behalf of whom this thread was started. I added research on the topic of idolatry in relation to a Bible study to get people’s thoughts on this study and to contribute to the debate. I was hoping to learn but I have had people mock my argument by saying they cannot do their laundry or dusting, knowing full well that the points they argued weren’t what was meant.
The thing I find disrespectful is that this thread was started to get people’s opinions about Catholics and idolatry, to give Catholics a chance to defend themselves and for people to point out** why** they think its idolatry (instead of the, it’s Catholic so it’s wrong view). I gave a Scriptural study and a picture sent to me as evidence why Catholics may be commiting idolatry and Marian excesses (in England this is a legitimate concern within the Church, as Mary being seen on pieces of toast and the like is ridiculing the faith). In return all I have received is ridiculous comments or attacks on how I worship which I don’t feel are conducive to the debate.
G
Genesis315
Guest
Well, sometimes its easier to see the other person’s side of the debate and why they might react as they do if you are put in their position. I sincerely apologize for any uncharitableness. I of course do not know how you worship God just as you cannot KNOW how others worship. We cannot read each others’ hearts. Only God can do that.
So when you make comments like this, you make it personal. Based soley on your interpretation of a couple verses of the Bible you claim to know what’s in someone’s heart. That’s not right.
C
coralewis
Guest
Howdy, people! I haven’t seen anyone mention intercessory prayers yet. My limited understanding of intercessory prayers means this: we ask Mary and the saints for intercession, which is praying to God on our behalf. We ask friends and family here on earth who haven’t died yet to pray for us, and we’re doing something comparable with those whom we can be confident that they’re in Heaven, worshipping God full-time for eternity. I hope someone can back me up, because I could’ve been clearer. God bless you all…happy Fish-day! 
T
teresas1979
Guest
You are right, it’s not right. I never really saw it that way before and I am sorry if it comes across like that. I never meant to personally offend anyone, just to contribute some research to the debate. I felt like I was being attacked and couldn’t understand why as I was viewing what I wrote as impersonal and for that I truly apologise. Incidentally, it is not my interpretation of a few verses but a study I was involved with, so the conclusions and wording are not mine personally but what we discovered collectively from the study.
BTW The study was not anti-Catholic, it was designed to show what could or could not be considered idolatry according to the Word of God. I don’t wholly agree with it although Marian excesses (for want of a better phrase) are very real and IMO are a very real threat to Catholicism. People say no-one opposes the real Catholicism, only what they think it teaches, but actions speak louder than words and the Church does not take action when it should.
T
teresas1979
Guest
Coralewis:
There are other threads on intercessions, perhaps that is why they haven’t been introduced here. FWIW I was given the following as answers to why Catholics should invoke Mary/the Saints to pray for them on other boards:
**1) It is a required belief that the saints can hear our prayers. For Eastern Catholics, it is required to venerate the saints because Eastern theology believes that to neglect God’s holy saints is, and I cannot think of a better term for it right now, an insult to God. **
**2) Sent. certa. means it is a teaching of the Church which is theologically certain but upon which the full authority of the Magisterium has not finally pronounced (in other words, it is not formally defined). Its truth is guaranteed by its intrinsic connection with the doctrine of revelation
De fide means it is formally defined dogma.
The Communion of Saints
The members of the Kingdom of God on earth and in the other world sanctified by the redeeming grace of Christ are united in a common supernatural life with the Head of the Church
and with one another. (Sent. certa.)
It is permissible and profitable to venerate the Saints in Heaven, and to invoke their intercession. (De fide.)
It is permissible and profitable to venerate the relics of the Saints. (De fide.)
It is permissible and profitable to venerate images of the Saints. (De fide.) **
3) We are not required to pray to any saint for intercessions, although I would suggest that not availing ones’ self of the assistance of these worthy souls is pretty risky. As a horribly sinful human being, I much prefer to have my heavenly family in the Communion of Saints helping me than relying on my own prayers alone. Because of their holiness, the saints prayers are much more efficacious than our own.
____
So the way I see it is that as a Catholic you must believe that Mary and the Saints can take your prayers to God on your behalf and that this would be beneficial to you, but you don’t actually have to do so yourself.
Seems to me then, that if you believe it to be beneficial (and as a Catholic you must) how could you not do it, as the saints are holier than we are and therefore their prayers are more efficacious. So although you do not need to ask the Saints or Mary for help, you must believe they are capable of helping, and so not to ask them would be unwise. Is this correct?
There are other threads on intercessions, perhaps that is why they haven’t been introduced here. FWIW I was given the following as answers to why Catholics should invoke Mary/the Saints to pray for them on other boards:
**1) It is a required belief that the saints can hear our prayers. For Eastern Catholics, it is required to venerate the saints because Eastern theology believes that to neglect God’s holy saints is, and I cannot think of a better term for it right now, an insult to God. **
**2) Sent. certa. means it is a teaching of the Church which is theologically certain but upon which the full authority of the Magisterium has not finally pronounced (in other words, it is not formally defined). Its truth is guaranteed by its intrinsic connection with the doctrine of revelation
De fide means it is formally defined dogma.
The Communion of Saints
The members of the Kingdom of God on earth and in the other world sanctified by the redeeming grace of Christ are united in a common supernatural life with the Head of the Church
and with one another. (Sent. certa.)
It is permissible and profitable to venerate the Saints in Heaven, and to invoke their intercession. (De fide.)
It is permissible and profitable to venerate the relics of the Saints. (De fide.)
It is permissible and profitable to venerate images of the Saints. (De fide.) **
3) We are not required to pray to any saint for intercessions, although I would suggest that not availing ones’ self of the assistance of these worthy souls is pretty risky. As a horribly sinful human being, I much prefer to have my heavenly family in the Communion of Saints helping me than relying on my own prayers alone. Because of their holiness, the saints prayers are much more efficacious than our own.
____
So the way I see it is that as a Catholic you must believe that Mary and the Saints can take your prayers to God on your behalf and that this would be beneficial to you, but you don’t actually have to do so yourself.
Seems to me then, that if you believe it to be beneficial (and as a Catholic you must) how could you not do it, as the saints are holier than we are and therefore their prayers are more efficacious. So although you do not need to ask the Saints or Mary for help, you must believe they are capable of helping, and so not to ask them would be unwise. Is this correct?
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
This is inflammatory and does not address the concern raised by mtr01 and reiterated by st-felicity, particularly in light of a statement you made in a previous post, to wit:
In all good faith, I have no problem (personally) accepting that you are Catholic. Moreover, I feel that Catholics have a right to question the teaching of their Church with a view to understanding it (as opposed to looking for ways to undermine it). However, once a person claiming to be Catholic publishes views which contradict teachings of the Church, then challenging that person is legitimate and this is the reason why:
Even if only one person comes to this forum wanting to know the heart and soul of Catholicism, then that person deserves an unconfusing and accurate account of Catholic teachings. Reading some of your posts which contradict Catholic teaching and then going to your profile and reading that you are Catholic: that’s just confusing and that’s just wrong.
You have needs, yes. That presumably is why you started posting here. I am confident, when all is said and done, that many Catholics will be happy to respond to your needs graciously, once you articulate them clearly and once you are willing to communicate in good faith. Let us keep in mind, however, that other people have needs too, and some of those people may not have the benefit of your knowledge of Catholicism.
T
teresas1979
Guest
I agree that what I said may be construed as inflammatory but in conceding that you must concede that she said:
I have yet to have explained to me what falsehoods (a fancy way of calling me a liar) I have made. I have explained my position several times and so see nothing wrong with calling myself a Catholic and gather that you largely agree. In view of Catholic teaching, I think I have made it obvious that there is Church teaching I do not agree with. For someone to come here and think that what I say is what the Church teaches would be naive and ignorant to say the least.
I still do not know what “falsehoods” I have been accused of and so although I answered felicity with sarcasm she possibly doesn’t deserve, its odd you instinctively defend her even though she has called me out as a liar without showing where/how I have lied. What are these other falsehoods? If I called you a liar you would be upset especially when 1) there is no reason you can see why someone would think that and 2) they have not provided any instances of where you have committed said wrongdoing, just thrown mud at your name.
M
Mickey
Guest
So Xavier agrees that The Ever Virgin Mary is The Mother of God. It’s so good to see that he finally gets it! The rest is simple. Venerate the Mother God.
:clapping:
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Teresa, while I don’t think I would go so far as to call you “fallen-away”, and while I fully agree that anyone who is baptized Catholic is Catholic is Catholic (apologies to Gertrude Stein here), I also think that words, terminology, whatever are very important, and that, before people debate on a particular subject, they’d better be quite sure that their definitions of words agree.
You seem to have serious reservations about a particular area where you say that “Catholics” (and right here is an example of the difficulty with using a “word”, you say things like “many” Catholics, which is simply not enough information and not clear enough information) have a problem–“too much” emphasis on Mary.
Then again, what one person thinks is “too much” is another person’s “not enough”. You appear to think (and please correct me if I’m wrong) not just that it is the problem of some x number of Catholics who, according to a Bible study and your opinion place “too much” emphasis on Mary (and indirectly imply that this “takes away” from Jesus), but that this is something that affects all Catholics to a degree. So, what is “too much” emphasis on Mary? Just about everybody here would agree that making Mary “equal” to God is “too much”. . .but almost nobody would think that the vast majority of Catholics equate Mary with God.
So what you’ve done is set up a “strawman” argument where you say, “Catholics worship Mary and put too much emphasis on her thereby making her equal to or above God”. If this were a TRUE proposition, virtually everybody here would agree that this is not what Catholicism teaches and that those guilty should be instructed not to do it.
But it isn’t a true proposition. Even if every person in your parish (let’s assign it a number of 10,000 people) told you to your face that “I worship Mary more than God”, you could not possibly extrapolate that to “Catholics worship Mary”. All you could say is, “THESE PARTICULAR Catholics appear to worship Mary” and your action in this scenario would be to contact first your bishop and then the Confraternity for Christian Doctrine.
There might be some people who have the wrong, repeat WRONG idea about Mary enough to make them equate her with God. But that isn’t what Catholicism teaches and it isn’t what the vast majority of Catholics do. . .and I think it’s disingenuous on your part to make the statements you do about “Marian excesses”.
If you do have concerns about a particular group of people, first talk to them, then talk to your priest, if necessary your bishop, and finally the CCD (i.e., Rome). But please don’t come on breathing flames about “Mariolatry among Catholics” as though this were some sort of dirty little secret among Catholics that you, brave soul, only wanted to bring to light and TREAT. If, I repeat IF, there is a problem with people you know, the sane, responsible, CATHOLIC action I have given you at the start of this paragraph. To do elsewise is neither Catholic nor Christian and will not address the carefully constructed “problem” that you have.
You seem to have serious reservations about a particular area where you say that “Catholics” (and right here is an example of the difficulty with using a “word”, you say things like “many” Catholics, which is simply not enough information and not clear enough information) have a problem–“too much” emphasis on Mary.
Then again, what one person thinks is “too much” is another person’s “not enough”. You appear to think (and please correct me if I’m wrong) not just that it is the problem of some x number of Catholics who, according to a Bible study and your opinion place “too much” emphasis on Mary (and indirectly imply that this “takes away” from Jesus), but that this is something that affects all Catholics to a degree. So, what is “too much” emphasis on Mary? Just about everybody here would agree that making Mary “equal” to God is “too much”. . .but almost nobody would think that the vast majority of Catholics equate Mary with God.
So what you’ve done is set up a “strawman” argument where you say, “Catholics worship Mary and put too much emphasis on her thereby making her equal to or above God”. If this were a TRUE proposition, virtually everybody here would agree that this is not what Catholicism teaches and that those guilty should be instructed not to do it.
But it isn’t a true proposition. Even if every person in your parish (let’s assign it a number of 10,000 people) told you to your face that “I worship Mary more than God”, you could not possibly extrapolate that to “Catholics worship Mary”. All you could say is, “THESE PARTICULAR Catholics appear to worship Mary” and your action in this scenario would be to contact first your bishop and then the Confraternity for Christian Doctrine.
There might be some people who have the wrong, repeat WRONG idea about Mary enough to make them equate her with God. But that isn’t what Catholicism teaches and it isn’t what the vast majority of Catholics do. . .and I think it’s disingenuous on your part to make the statements you do about “Marian excesses”.
If you do have concerns about a particular group of people, first talk to them, then talk to your priest, if necessary your bishop, and finally the CCD (i.e., Rome). But please don’t come on breathing flames about “Mariolatry among Catholics” as though this were some sort of dirty little secret among Catholics that you, brave soul, only wanted to bring to light and TREAT. If, I repeat IF, there is a problem with people you know, the sane, responsible, CATHOLIC action I have given you at the start of this paragraph. To do elsewise is neither Catholic nor Christian and will not address the carefully constructed “problem” that you have.
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
Whew, Tantum, that was luminous reasoning.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
The intercession of saints, though a sort of parrallel issue to this one (in some folk’s eyes anyway), is not really what this thread is meant to discuss. This is about the false iconclastic allegation that Catholics actually are idolators because of their images and statues.Howdy, people! I haven’t seen anyone mention intercessory prayers yet. My limited understanding of intercessory prayers means this: we ask Mary and the saints for intercession, which is praying to God on our behalf. We ask friends and family here on earth who haven’t died yet to pray for us, and we’re doing something comparable with those whom we can be confident that they’re in Heaven, worshipping God full-time for eternity. I hope someone can back me up, because I could’ve been clearer. God bless you all…happy Fish-day!
The intercession of saints sounds like an excelent topic for another thread here in the apologetics forum though. Post the new thread and we can rock on w/that too.
Pax vobiscum,
C
coralewis
Guest
Howdy, people! I haven’t seen anyone mention intercessory prayers yet. My limited understanding of intercessory prayers means this: we ask Mary and the saints for intercession, which is praying to God on our behalf. We ask friends and family here on earth who haven’t died yet to pray for us, and we’re doing something comparable with those whom we can be confident that they’re in Heaven, worshipping God full-time for eternity. I hope someone can back me up, because I could’ve been clearer. God bless you all…happy Fish-day!
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
But?
If you are going to concede something, then concede it. A mere ‘fair enough’ or ‘point taken’ is sufficient. The word ‘but’ negates what you are conceding.
Again inflammatory. Suggesting that you have posted falsehoods and calling you a liar are two entirely different things, both in reason and in law. I am not aware of any posts calling you a liar. Moreover, if I were aware, do not doubt that I would report it to the mods.
Let me specify.
- For purposes of discussion between yourself and those whom I know to have a strong grounding in Catholic teaching (including myself): yes, I agree. No harm in calling yourself Catholic.
- For purposes of your posting material which both contradicts Catholic teaching and which is able to be read by those who have little or no ground in Catholic teaching: I have a problem with that. I have explained what I believe the problem to be. The solution I see as either one of the following or both:
b) add a qualifier to ‘Catholic’ on your profile. Something comfortable for you (and others) maybe along the lines of ‘Questioning Catholic,’ ‘Doubting Catholic,’ whatever.
That’s an unwarranted attribution. We cannot say with any certainty how much preparation visitors bring to this board. For all we know, children may be lurking on their parent’s computer. People (regardless of their age or preparation) who are quite vulnerable may be lurking here. There’s is nothing untoward with you having issues with the Catholic Church. Let us also keep in mind those who come here in desparate straights who want and need the straight goods on Catholicism.
Point taken.
I did not defend her. I supported what she was saying. There is a difference between a person and what that person says. As for any instincts I may have: there is no profit in attempting to judge invisible aspects of my being. What I say is sufficient for discussion.
Perhaps st_felicity will be kind enough to specify.
S
SFH
Guest
Just because Catholics use images of God and the Saints in their worship does not make them idolators.
God commanded two graven images of angels to be placed over the Mercy Seat on top of the Ark of the Covenant. When the Israelite people bowed down before the Ark, they certainly weren’t worshiping the angels. They were worshiping the God enthroned upon the Mercy Seat.
God commanded Moses to make a brazen serpent. When the Israelite people looked to the serpent to be healed, they weren’t worshiping the serpent (though they did fall into that sin later).
Solomon’s temple contained two giant carved images of angels and raised panels of lions and angels and the Glory of God filled the temple.
Catholics do not worship statues; they don’t even pray to them. Catholics pray to the God or people the statues represent.
I dare say you probably have a picture of your wife and children in your wallet, but that doesn’t mean you worship them. Many a soldier on our battlefield has kissed his wife’s picture and tucked it close to his heart; he doesn’t love the picture, he loves his wife. Well, we Catholics love God and the saints. And among the saints, we especially love Our Blessed Mother.
Catholics also make statues and pictures of the saints to remind us of their virtues and help us try to imitate them. Remember the old phrase a picture’s worth a thousand words? Well sometimes, a crucifix or a painting can speak to the heart and bring a sinner back to God more effectively than the words of the Bible by themselves.
Now, why not go straight to God? Why ask the saints to intercede? Well, St. Paul asked his fellow Christians to pray for him. Esther asked the people to pray for her before she went before the king. When a Catholic prays to the saints, he’s just asking them to pray for him like St. Paul and Esther asked the faithful to pray for them.
God commanded two graven images of angels to be placed over the Mercy Seat on top of the Ark of the Covenant. When the Israelite people bowed down before the Ark, they certainly weren’t worshiping the angels. They were worshiping the God enthroned upon the Mercy Seat.
God commanded Moses to make a brazen serpent. When the Israelite people looked to the serpent to be healed, they weren’t worshiping the serpent (though they did fall into that sin later).
Solomon’s temple contained two giant carved images of angels and raised panels of lions and angels and the Glory of God filled the temple.
Catholics do not worship statues; they don’t even pray to them. Catholics pray to the God or people the statues represent.
I dare say you probably have a picture of your wife and children in your wallet, but that doesn’t mean you worship them. Many a soldier on our battlefield has kissed his wife’s picture and tucked it close to his heart; he doesn’t love the picture, he loves his wife. Well, we Catholics love God and the saints. And among the saints, we especially love Our Blessed Mother.
Catholics also make statues and pictures of the saints to remind us of their virtues and help us try to imitate them. Remember the old phrase a picture’s worth a thousand words? Well sometimes, a crucifix or a painting can speak to the heart and bring a sinner back to God more effectively than the words of the Bible by themselves.
Now, why not go straight to God? Why ask the saints to intercede? Well, St. Paul asked his fellow Christians to pray for him. Esther asked the people to pray for her before she went before the king. When a Catholic prays to the saints, he’s just asking them to pray for him like St. Paul and Esther asked the faithful to pray for them.
S
st_felicity
Guest
Hi all–Wow…lot’s going on since I had to vacate for a while–sorry, I had to work…
ALRIGHT…let me say 1st…I certainly can understand NON-Catholics who have terrible ideas about what Catholicism is all about–I tend to be pretty patient with them…AND I have some patience for poorly catechized Catholics (but less so than for Non-Catholics)…BUT have a very low tolerance for people who claim to be Catholic, but espouse a wholly UN-Catholic point of view. APPARENTLY, you, teresas1979, are a poorly catechized Catholic rather than the UN-Catholic I assumed you were based on the info in your profile–NOTICE, I referenced it in an earlier post, and also NOTICE someone suggested you put a qualifyer in there so that we might avoid exactly this kind of thing…
Now–With this new point of view–I don’t feel so hostile toward you, but I do still question your assertion that the picture…http://www.remnantofgod.org/marycross.jpg...was sent to you by a priest…When I responded to your post with that picture in it the first time–the link to the picture also showed up. I have checked it again, but now the link has been removed–how, I don’t know. Believe me or don’t, but I stand by my assertion–otherwise, how would I have found that exact picture (and so quickly too!) at remnantofgod.org/ ? on the page called Catholics worship Mary. I certainly do not visit such rubbish myself.
THAT (the claim a priest sent it to you) is the falshood to which I referred. Granted–I have no proof and I (guess) a priest could have been checking out anti-catholic websites and just thought it would be a good pic to send you…
ALRIGHT…let me say 1st…I certainly can understand NON-Catholics who have terrible ideas about what Catholicism is all about–I tend to be pretty patient with them…AND I have some patience for poorly catechized Catholics (but less so than for Non-Catholics)…BUT have a very low tolerance for people who claim to be Catholic, but espouse a wholly UN-Catholic point of view. APPARENTLY, you, teresas1979, are a poorly catechized Catholic rather than the UN-Catholic I assumed you were based on the info in your profile–NOTICE, I referenced it in an earlier post, and also NOTICE someone suggested you put a qualifyer in there so that we might avoid exactly this kind of thing…
Now–With this new point of view–I don’t feel so hostile toward you, but I do still question your assertion that the picture…http://www.remnantofgod.org/marycross.jpg...was sent to you by a priest…When I responded to your post with that picture in it the first time–the link to the picture also showed up. I have checked it again, but now the link has been removed–how, I don’t know. Believe me or don’t, but I stand by my assertion–otherwise, how would I have found that exact picture (and so quickly too!) at remnantofgod.org/ ? on the page called Catholics worship Mary. I certainly do not visit such rubbish myself.
THAT (the claim a priest sent it to you) is the falshood to which I referred. Granted–I have no proof and I (guess) a priest could have been checking out anti-catholic websites and just thought it would be a good pic to send you…
S
st_felicity
Guest
…anyway…this is off topic and it’s clear the thread worked itself out…I am sorry I was reactionary. I will be more cautious (or try to be…). And Ali–thank you for defending…I mean NOT defending me in my absence…
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Isn’t it amazing what all people who WANT to find things to allege about the Catholic Church CAN find and run wild with?
Felicity, relax…we all get wild from time to time, and with all the crazy stuff that get alleged against us sometimes it’s hard not to go off.
All of us have to realize that most of this is either ignorance or willful misrepresentation.
Pax vobiscum,
Felicity, relax…we all get wild from time to time, and with all the crazy stuff that get alleged against us sometimes it’s hard not to go off.
All of us have to realize that most of this is either ignorance or willful misrepresentation.
Pax vobiscum,
- Status