Dave's Allegation That Catholics Are Idolators

[Ani_Ibi]

CreosMary:

Australia is still a free country the last time I checked

Not for long though. Canada just acquired some previously loved submarines from Britain. We’re sending them over to teach you guys how to play hockey whether you like it or not. D-oh! Am I off topic?

OK. Back on topic. Dave, you can only say that we are idolators if you see us doing the wave in Church. And, if you do come back saying that you have seen us doing the wave in Church, then we would have to inform you that you are wrong. Sorry, but that’s just the way it is.

 

[CreosMary]

From the very begining…’
“Let us make man in our own image” Gen
So dear Dave are we idols to ourselves?.
To look in the mirror, OMG!! I am worshiping an idol!!!???
God creates us in form, his beloved Son himself came in form of God/Man
Br CreosMary

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Lorarose:

Excellent point.
Who put that love of beauty in our hearts?
Why would He put that love of beauty in our hearts only to tell us not to make beautiful things?
Why would He be insulted when beautiful things are created to give Him honor and to remind us of Him?

I personally think it is VERY SILLY to believe that God, our heavenly Father, would want us to refrain from creating beauty!

How many parents here would scold their children for handing them a picture they drew?

Sacred Art:

1. The first printing press was when? Round about the time of Luther? That left a lot of Christians without Bibles for a few centuries. OK a lot of centuries.
2. And even if people could have Bibles, over 90% of the Church couldn’t read.
3. Sacred art was one means of teaching.
4. Sacred art was one means of praying, particularly on the part of the artist who struggled to use his or her gift to glorify God.

But oh nooooooo. Because buddy can read, because buddy has a Bible, then all us no-goodnik Catholics had to have had something wrong with us for not inventing the printing press sooner. It must have been a conspiracy to keep sola scriptura from the masses. Yes, that was what it was. A conspiracy. Why, just thinking about all those centuries without the printing press just fills a person up with righteousness indignation, doesn’t it?

D-OH!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

mercygate:

contemplatives tend to be reticent.

Ha! What a wry sense of humour you have.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

OhioBob:

I’ve seen Protestants kneeling next to their beds. They must worship mattresses!

Do you kneel or bow to tie your shoelaces? I bow. Does it make a difference, I wonder? Now that I think of it, I have bowed to take a turkey out of the oven. Oh, and there’s the dryer: the socks have to be taken out somehow. I guess this means I am in a lot of trouble, doesn’t it? :crying: I’ve tried to stop bowing and kneeling, but I just can’t help myself.

 

[kwitz]

Thanks Ani!! I’ve been looking for a reason to skip laundry and you’ve hooked me up with a great one.

Kris

 

[teresas1979]

Showing Mary on the cross instead of Jesus has to be pushing it, surely. Even most Catholics must agree that this is dangerous?

“When I see someone kneeling down in prayer in front of a this image, I do not assume they are worshipping the image. Just as I would not assume, if I were to see you bowing down in front of your bed in prayer, that you were worshipping your bed.” A very devout Catholic gave me this as an answer to the above image being used in prayer.

In reply I would have to say something like this: (NB some of this answer is my own thoughts, other parts were emailed to me by a friend).

"3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" Ex. 20.

Let’s keep it in full context: defining what gods and idolatry is.

The first thing we see is “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” What would make a god?

This would:

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. Ooookay…so, a graven image would be a god. What would be a graven image?

This would be:

“…or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:”

Anything that shows any likeness of:

1. that is in heaven above,
2. that is in the earth beneath,
3. that is in the water,
4. under the earth.

A graven image would be an image that would be in any likeness that is in any of these things.

Mary, was she in the earth? Yes

Is she in heaven? Yes.

So, when you make that image, it became a graven image…a god.

Now, what is idolatry? Let’s go back to Exodus and see. After the Bible defines what a graven image is, it further says:

*“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:”
*
When you bow before that graven image of Mary, you committed idolatry, thus worshipping another god according to the highest authority, God’s Word.

We don’t have to assume that they are worshipping. According to the Word of God, when we see someone do this, we KNOW that they are worshipping.

A bed is not made for worship…or in the likeness of anything. A bed is made for sleeping, thus if someone knelt down beside their bed to pray, it wouldn’t be worship.

Common sense

 

[st_felicity]

teresas1979:

http://www.remnantofgod.org/marycross.jpg

The picture does not show Mary “on the cross,” she;s shown on a globe. The cross is behind her–Have you ever heard “to Jesus through Mary”?

Also, didn’t Jesus say “take up your cross and follow me”? Didn’t Mary bear a “cross” when she said yes to accepting the role God gave her in salvation history?

We don’t have to assume that they are worshipping. According to the Word of God, when we see someone do this, we KNOW that they are worshipping.

A bed is not made for worship…or in the likeness of anything. A bed is made for sleeping, thus if someone knelt down beside their bed to pray, it wouldn’t be worship.

Common sense

OKAY…so when bend down to dust the picture of my dead grandmother–

WHAT??? Well, she was on earth and now she’s in heaven and I’m serving the image by cleaning it…That’s not the same thing you’re saying? This whole line of thinking is silly.

 

[st_felicity]

kwitz:

Thanks Ani!! I’ve been looking for a reason to skip laundry and you’ve hooked me up with a great one.

Kris

Now you can skip dusting too!

 

[Genesis315]

I’m not sure where that picture is from, but Mary is not “on the cross” in that picture. She is clothed in the sun with the moon at her feet. Maybe I’m looking at it wrong, but she is not nailed to that cross.

The graven image thing is part of the first commandment, it goes with not making yourself any false gods. No Catholic worships pictures or statues as gods.

When you make an image, it doesn’t become a god. When you take a picture of your child, do you make him your god? When your child draws a picture of a cat, does he make it his god? No, it’s common sense. People worshipped the golden calf as a god. It didn’t represent some calf god that they worshipped. The statue itself was the god. That’s the classic example of what a graven image is.

If you think worshipping involves simply bending at the hip, you are missing the point. If bending at the hip is how you worship God, you are falling WAY, WAY short. I don’t think you can comprehend how Catholics worship God. If you think veneration of Mary is at the same level of worshipping God, your eyes have yet to be opened to how to really worship Him. The level we worship God must simply be too high for you to even imagine.

You seem to imply the veneration we give Mary is equal to the adoration that you give to Our Lord. I suggest you stop treating Him like a creature and start adoring Him like the one true God.

 

[st_felicity]

BTW–Real nice website where ya got that picture from…:nope: NOT

 

[teresas1979]

BTW–Real nice website where ya got that picture from…:nope: NOT!

The picture was sent to me by a Catholic priest so go ahead and be sarcastic and nasty about him if you want. I will pray for you. Which website is it from anyway? I have no idea - the picture was sent to me because he thinks there is Marian excess. I didn’t say she was nailed to the cross but she is shown as bearing the cross without Jesus. Surely this points away from Him?

And your anology with a photograph is not the same thing at all. You do not know if the picture is of someone now in Heaven. The picture was taken of someone before they could be in Heaven. The picture was taken for a reason other than prayer, statues are made for prayer purposes.

If you think worshipping involves simply bending at the hip, you are missing the point. If bending at the hip is how you worship God, you are falling WAY, WAY short. I don’t think you can comprehend how Catholics worship God. If you think veneration of Mary is at the same level of worshipping God, your eyes have yet to be opened to how to really worship Him. The level we worship God must simply be too high for you to even imagine.

You seem to imply the veneration we give Mary is equal to the adoration that you give to Our Lord. I suggest you stop treating Him like a creature and start adoring Him like the one true God.

What I posted was an argument to “kneeling in front of a statue” and so obviously it deals with that. To compare kneeling with other forms of worship is most unfair in this context as the argument was designed to address kneeling.

I know people personally who place Mary on a higher pedestal than the Lord and are not told they should no longer be Catholic when perhaps they should (if Marian excesses were addressed properly there would be less confusion).

As for how I worship the Lord - it is private to me and therefore not up for debate however I find it rude you do not know me and assume my methods of praising the Lord are lacking. If I worshipped publicly or made my methods public then I **would **expect comment on it but the thread is about idolatry and that is what is being discussed. Catholics publicly pray in front of statues and that is what the debate is about. I, on the other hand pray in private as I don’t need to make a public display of how wonderful I am to pray to God Almighty.

The point I was trying to make is that a statue is **designed **to be prayed to, whilst all the other things people have mentioned have a different purpose. If you have to resort to attacking other people’s methods of worship and make ridiculous comparisons of statues to bed clothes then there is no point in coming here with a well constructed (although highly controversial) opinion

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I know people personally who place Mary on a higher pedestal than the Lord and are not told they should no longer be Catholic when perhaps they should (if Marian excesses were addressed properly there would be less confusion).

Excuse me, but just how do you “know” that these people “place Mary on a higher pedestal than the Lord?” Do they go around and tell you, “forget about Jesus, Mary does all the work?” Do you know their every waking thought and action and somehow are able to “tote” up “Mary thoughts” versus “Jesus thoughts” and, oh golly gee, Mrs. X thought about Mary 20 times and Jesus only 19!!! Obviously Mrs X is no Catholic, and obviously she’s worshipping Mary instead!

And this "are not told they should no longer be Catholic when perhaps they should "? Say what now? Since when were you appointed, or anyone else, to tell another person what faith they “should”, or “shouldn’t” be, on the basis of what you “think” they are?

Somehow, did you miss the fact (known these last 2000 years) that honor of Mary LEADS to worship of GOD?

Since when did the Catholic faith become iconoclastic? This error of yours on “Marian excesses” was roundly rebutted 1300 years ago, but, as is the case with so many errors, it “resurfaces” every generation or so. We were warned of this by St. Paul (I honor him, too. . .how horrible! with a little plaster statue and celebration of his feasts). Of course, I only honor him because of his work for and faith in Christ Jesus, not because he–Paul–was equal to or ABOVE Jesus. I honor St. Joseph, too–even named my son Joseph and he has a little statue of Joseph. My girls have statues of their patron saints. I have a painting of MY patron saint. We celebrate feastdays. But why? Because we honor our saints for their WORK FOR and FAITH IN CHRIST JESUS. Not because we think they are equal to or above GOD.

So what is this problem so many seem to have with Mary? She is not just the Mother of God, she’s the Mother of all of us. If God honored her by allowing His Son to be born of her, I’d think that the rest of us could follow His example. After all, He honored her for bearing Christ Jesus, and being His Mother, by awarding her a crown in heaven (cf. St. Paul). He didn’t just sweep her aside like a broken test tube. I have to think, sometimes, that cries of “Marian idolatry” are just so much sour grapes from people who are so caught up in doing what they THINK God wants that they ignore His own words and teachings on the subject itself.

 

[Axion]

"3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;" Ex. 20.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. Ooookay…so, a graven image would be a god. What would be a graven image?

This would be:

“…or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:”

A graven image would be an image that would be in any likeness that is in any of these things.

So when the Jews were commanded by God to place two Golden images of angels on to the Ark of the Covenant, He was ordering them to make graven images/idols was He?

The answer of course is NO. God hates idols. So we can take one thing from that, and that is that religious images are not idols.

God tells us clearly in the commandments what idols are: they are images of FALSE GODS.

So, when you make that image, it became a graven image…a god.

Did the angels on the Ark, or any of the many other angels and images in the temple become gods?

Now, what is idolatry? Let’s go back to Exodus and see:

“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:”

When you bow before that graven image of Mary, you committed idolatry, thus worshipping another god according to the highest authority, God’s Word.

We don’t have to assume that they are worshipping. According to the Word of God, when we see someone do this, we KNOW that they are worshipping…

Common sense

Sorry. Nonsense.

If we bow in front of something we are worshipping that thing?

So protestants worship the crosses and lecterns they kneel in front of?

Protestants worship their pastors??

Thousands of people worship the Flag, the Queen, the Duke, or the Prince of Wales???

In fact this standard fundamentalist protestant argument, which you present here, is destroyed by the fact that the Israelites not only bowed before the ark and its golden statues, they also sprinkled it with incense and sacrificial blood. Were they all idolaters?

Is God a God of confusion, irrational, inconsistent? He would have to be, if He commanded against religious images one minute and commanded them the next.

THEREFORE your (and mohammed’s) interpretation of the commandment as referring to any religious image, rather than idols of false gods (Apostolic interpretation), is quite clearly wrong.

 

[teresas1979]

Excuse me, but just how do you “know” that these people “place Mary on a higher pedestal than the Lord?” Do they go around and tell you, “forget about Jesus, Mary does all the work?”

Yes I have been told that - truly - there are people who receive the Eucharist every week and pretend to be good Catholics in terms of attending Mass who will tell anyone and everyone who listens how much greater Mary was than Jesus. I have seen it many times with my own eyes and am amazed you haven’t - it was the first thing that led to my questioning Catholicism.

The priest I mentioned knows all the ins and outs of this which is why he is determined to confront Marian excesses. I have been to Lourdes where some people say that Mary will save their souls and if you say what about Jesus they will say no He cannot reach God for you, only Mary. There are websites on the internet teaching that Mary is the way to salvation and while you will all just say that person is not really Catholic no-one has told them that.

 

[teresas1979]

If we bow in front of something we are worshipping that thing?

That is not what I said but if you need to take one line out of context of my argument to try and refute it you are not really winning are you? I had hoped someone would try and come up with a better way to refute this.

What I failed to point out is that this has been my view in the past and Im now looking for a reason why I should no longer believe it. Maybe if people stopped being so defensive and making ridiculous arguments based on laundry and dusting you could show someone why what you are doing is not idolatry. And saying that bowing does not equal worship will not cut it as that is common sense in the same way as something which **has been created with the sole purpose of being prayed to **could be viewed as an idol.

 

[Genesis315]

I didn’t say she was nailed to the cross but she is shown as bearing the cross without

she’s not bearing the cross in the picture

The point I was trying to make is that a statue is **designed **to be prayed to, whilst all the other things people have mentioned have a different purpose. If you have to resort to attacking other people’s methods of worship and make ridiculous comparisons of statues to bed clothes then there is no point in coming here with a well constructed (although highly controversial) opinion

Statutes are not designed to be prayed to. We pray to (not worship) the people they represent. We do not pray to the statue.

As for how I worship the Lord - it is private to me and therefore not up for debate however I find it rude you do not know me and assume my methods of praising the Lord are lacking

Well, you must be comparing our “worshipping” Mary with something. And since you say you only worship God, I assume you are comparing how we venerate Mary with how you worship God. And since you say we “worship” Mary in place of God, it follows that you obviously see us giving the same attention to Mary that you give to God. Since we are merely venerating Mary as one of God’s creatures, it follows that you are giving that same attention to the Lord. See my point?

 

[st_felicity]

teresas1979:

The picture was sent to me by a Catholic priest so go ahead and be sarcastic and nasty about him if you want. I will pray for you. Which website is it from anyway? I have no idea -

Bull…the pic you posted has the link attached to it–how do you think I knew where you got it from? And about the prayers–thank you–and I will do likewise for you.

 

[teresas1979]

Well, you must be comparing our “worshipping” Mary with something. And since you say you only worship God, I assume you are comparing how we venerate Mary with how you worship God. And since you say we “worship” Mary in place of God, it follows that you obviously see us giving the same attention to Mary that you give to God. Since we are merely venerating Mary as one of God’s creatures, it follows that you are giving the same attention to the Lord. See my point?

No I don’t see your point. The worship given to Mary is attested to by many (see some of my other posts) and it doesn’t compare to the praise I give to the Lord. But how I worship is still not the issue. The issue is idolatry. I didn’t say you worship Mary in place of God, I said she is worshipped as an equal to God (which by many she is). IMO the honour given to Mary is not nearly enough if she is truly deserving of the praise many attribute to her in the same way as the praise offered to Gos is lacking.

That is not a criticism, we are human and unable to give God the glory He deserves. But unlike what you are infering of yourself, I haven’t claimed to give ‘sufficient’ attention to the Lord. How I worship is between myself and the Lord and he knows my sincerity and the depths of my praise. To suggest that I worship the Lord as a creature is ignorant to say the least and speaks volumes of how Catholics view other christians

 

[mtr01]

teresas1979:

To suggest that I worship the Lord as a creature is ignorant to say the least and speaks volumes of how Catholics view other christians

I find your indignation quite uncompelling, Teresa. Aren’t you doing the same thing by claiming Catholics worship Mary, posting pictures as “proof” of your point, all the while admitting you are a fallen Catholic who hasn’t been an active member of the Church for some time?