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Spiller
Guest
Whoa… What he said!
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japhy
Guest
I think we’re interpreting 284 & 288 differently. 284 says that clerics are to wear garb according to norms and customs. 288 says that permanent deacons are not bound to those norms and customs. Thus, a permanent deacon is not obligated to wear such garb.
Also, see this article.
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
Thank you Deacon John, I appreciate your authoritative response. Well said and well documented.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Spiller
Guest
One must be very careful. Interpreting Church documentation without the required training can really lead to some problems. That’s why it’s nice to have bonafide experts on the matter. I’ll defer to deacon and canonist cameron_lansing and his thorough comments above.
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japhy
Guest
As will I. I was writing my response as he was writing his.
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LRThunder
Guest
I think it depends on the diocese.
In my diocese, transitional deacons wear the collar, but permanent deacons don’t. I know, because we have a transitional deacon right now at my parish and a permanent deacon. The permanent deacon is a school teacher and is a coach of a couple of school teams.
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JReducation
Guest
It’s not that the mass is less solemn, the GIRM is referring to those days that are solemnities. Not everyday is a solemnity, some are feasts, memorials or ordinary days in the liturgical calendar.
JR
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jmdsc
Guest
Per your request…
ADA Heirlooms, Inc. - Texas
Aquinas and More - Colorado
Chappell Threads - Pennsylvania
These are just a few that do custom work for reasonable prices.
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Spiller
Guest
That makes no sense at all…
There are reasons why daily Masses often do not use gold vestments or gem-encrusted sacred vessels or incense.
One of the biggest is to “reserve” ways to make solemnities within the Church more solemn.
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EasterJoy
Guest
Only one thing is necessary. Mary has chosen the better part, and shall not be deprived of it …
“As for clothes, why be concerned? Learn a lesson from way the wild flowers grow. They do not work, they do not spin. Yet not even Solomon in all his splendor was arrayed like one of these. If God can clothe in such splendor the grass of the field, which blooms today and is thrown on the fire tomorrow, will he not provide for you, O weak in faith! …Seek first his kingship over you, his way of holiness, and all these things will be given you besides.” (Matt. 6:28-30,33)
Do not get me wrong. St. Martha is a saint. Making vestments is a holy pursuit. Nevertheless, I would rather that we who sew concern ourselves with such things…and not with worry.
As for the clergy, them pursue fidelity to their ministries, which none of us can do for them. Let them pursue holiness. Holiness is always the primary adornment needed by a Christian, but especially the clergy. We can take care of the clerical clothing, and in doing so have the blessing of showing our affection for that holiness.
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belgianwaffles9
Guest
It’s not that the mass is less solemn, the GIRM is referring to those days that are solemnities. Not everyday is a solemnity, some are feasts, memorials or ordinary days in the liturgical calendar.
JR
Both of those points were discussed in the first few pages. You guys are right, absolutely. Those are both good explanations, which I accept. Personally, were I a deacon, I’d prefer to always wear a dalmatic. In a perfect world, I’d have a variety to choose frome, of varying degrees of solemnity. Its not a perfect world, and I accept that.
Good resources. I would also suspect that Custom Sewing by Peggy would be reasonbly priced, but her website posts no prices. I also suspect most of the cheaper “companies” are actually “run-out-of-home” businesses, in addition to convents. These are not likely to have websites, and require quite a bit of scouting. I’ve seen some news articles about groups like that, so I’ll keep my eyes open. I know they exist.
Mostly just aesthetics. Its a bit plain. I tend to like vestments with more decoration. Not necesarily crazy amounts of jewels and ornamentation, but i like patterns and damask, for example.
For example, one of my favorite solemn mass sets is a Requiem set made by Luzar. Its very simple, yet I like the design very much.
One thing i dislike about the dalmatic in the BIG picture you posted is that it doesnt have the traditional ‘H’ shaped design on the back. Not all dalmatics i like have it, but many do. A few pages back you posted a picture of a dalmatic that did have that design, and i liked it very much. So our tastes arent completely out of sync.
I have posted a picture of the dalmatic from the requiem set i like, the other dalmatic picture you posted earlier, as well as a smaller picture of a dalmatic of the same design as in the BIG picture, for comparisson. I like the first two alot, the third not at all:
luzarvestments.co.uk/hms_files/Ref%202817a.jpgThe requiem one I like very much
http://www.matthewfsheehan.net/Disp...tImages/dt_WD6941AWV-DALMATIC-TAPESTRY.jpgthe one you posted which i also like
http://www.mckaychurchgoods.com/bvd842.jpgsimilar to the design from your BIG picture, which I don’t like so much.
Hopefully these pictures help show the kind of designs i, personally like. Theres always some room for disagreement in matters aesthetic.
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THurifer2
Guest
Still not seeing where the local ordinary can forbid a permanent deacon from wearing Clerical attire.
Permanent deacons are Clerics why can’t they wear clerical attire?
I know of MANY situations where it is useful. Prison Ministry comes to mind.
I have seen deacons on EWTN wearing their collars in formal situations.
I am not referring to deacons running around all the time wearing collars like the other clerics…Just in situations of Formality…and not even on Sundays at coffee and rolls or even church meetings.
Just CERTAIN instances.
Every Deacon I know has a Roman Collar. They RARELY wear them but they do “every once in awhile”
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Brendan
Guest
And the USCCB seemed to claim authority under 284 to approve particular law that seems to permit deacons to wear cassocks at their own discretion.
One of the things that I learned in my Canon Law clasess ( Deacon Cameron, that was from Dr. Ed Peters, you are probably familiar with him), is that Canon Law means what it says. Don’
t ignore was is there and don’t infer what ins’t there ( that is just about a quote from Dr. Peters)
If that is the case, I cannot see how one can infer that the bishops do not mean deacons when they say ‘clerics’.
usccb.org/norms/284.htm
One of the things that I learned in my Canon Law clasess ( Deacon Cameron, that was from Dr. Ed Peters, you are probably familiar with him), is that Canon Law means what it says. Don’
t ignore was is there and don’t infer what ins’t there ( that is just about a quote from Dr. Peters)
If that is the case, I cannot see how one can infer that the bishops do not mean deacons when they say ‘clerics’.
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cameron_lansing
Guest
Brendan,
I can see the particular and interesting issue which you present as you consider the narrowed phrase, “The use of the cassock is at the discretion of the cleric.”
There appears to be an ambiguity here. It is obvious that other parts of this complementary norm treat the obligation to prescribed liturgical vesture by clerics, state that priests are usually to be attired in black suit and Roman collar outside liturgical functions, and that religious clerics follow the proper law of their institutes or societies. So now we are left to examine the little slice about cassocks.
This matter highlights the need to understand the scope of a law by reading its text with care (canon 17) and to take note of how later legislation affects former legislation (canon 20). Let us see if these points may assist in our understanding of this issue.
- As you wisely note from Dr. Peters, we should not ignore what is in the text, so we should begin with the actual text of the complementary norm. Here canon 17 provides that “Ecclesiastical laws must be understood in accord with the proper meaning of the words considered in their text and context. If the meaning remains doubtful and obscure, recourse must be made to parallel passages, if there are such, to the purpose and the circumstances of the law, and to the mind of the legislator.”
1a. Here the NCCB; USCCB begins by stating that it “hereby decrees that without prejudice to the provisions of canon 288.”
1c. If someone can present a reason to reach a contrary conclusion, then we would have to consider that, of course.
- Canon 20 says that: “A later law abrogates, or derogates from, an earlier law it if it states so expressly, is directly contrary to it, or completely re-orders the entire matter of the earlier law. . . .” Let us also consider this in the event we might have a lingering doubt about ecclesiastical attire for permanent deacons being subject only to the complementary norm.
2b. However, the USCCB then issued the Directory on the Permanent Diaconate in 2004 after the complementary legislation and it also received the recognitio of the Holy See. Therefore, it expressess the particular law of this episcopal conference on the matter regarding permanent deacons. That is why I cited from it, lest we ignore what the later particular law says. The directory is the most current one.
To re-quote it in part, norm 12 in chapter 2 says “The Code of Canon Law does not oblige permanent deacons to wear an ecclesiastical garb. because they are more prominent and active in secular professions and society, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops specifies that permanent deacons should resemble the lay faithful in dress and matters of lifestyle. Each ordinary should, however, determine and promulgate any exceptions to this law, as well as specify the appropriate clerical attire.”
2c. As a latter law, the Directory would have reordered any possible treatment of the ecclesiastical attire of permanent deacons, if one were inclined to have seen it , in the complementary norm. It both “specifies” and gives a reason (more prominent and active in secular professions and society. We should not neglect the point that each ordinary can determined and promulgate exceptions to it.
2d. If someone can present a reason to reach a contrary conclusion, then we would have to consider that, of course.
Perhaps I am missing something and always welcome illumination.
But again for general purposes, I reiterate the distinctions between the general obligation of clerics expressed in canon 284 (and see canon 669), the exemption of permanent deacons from the obligation unless particular law would oblige them to it (canon 288), and the assertion of a privilege. These are different categories.
What has yet to be established in my mind is the existence of a privilege for deacons to wear ecclesiastical attire on the basis of an exemption from obligation.
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Spiller
Guest
[Edited] read what our visiting deacon and canonist has written. It’s rather lucid and rigorous.
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THurifer2
Guest
I asked my Parish Priest who is a canonist (and against Perm deacons wearing collars). He said it is likely that a bishop CAN forbid a deacon from wearing a collar but it is unlikely that one would. He mentioned that the directive from L.A. was not an order but a recommendation. My diocese the BIshop allows the cleric to wear clerical garb which is the norm in the Universal Church.
A deacon friend of mine who belongs to the confraternity of Catholic Clergy (the one headed by John Trigilio) said that there is no likely written rule anywhere that forbids deacons wearing collars…including Los Angeles.
I plan on wearing my Clerical Collar in prison ministry only…as requested by the Chaplain of the prison who is a protestant. (he recognizes that clerics should wear clerical garb in “his House”
A deacon friend of mine who belongs to the confraternity of Catholic Clergy (the one headed by John Trigilio) said that there is no likely written rule anywhere that forbids deacons wearing collars…including Los Angeles.
I plan on wearing my Clerical Collar in prison ministry only…as requested by the Chaplain of the prison who is a protestant. (he recognizes that clerics should wear clerical garb in “his House”
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JReducation
Guest
The cut on the green one is more commonly used by Eastern Catholics They wear the closed sleeves and the slit on the sides, so do transitional deacons in some monastic orders. The monastic dalmatic looks like a chasuable (sp?) but has a straight cut at the bottom. It’s almost like a poncho. The collar is wide to allow the capuche to sit over the outside of teh dalmatic.
JR
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JReducation
Guest
As the Canonist quoted, the Church prefers that permanent deacons merge into the daily life of the lay world and the use of the collar is reserved for ministry
The only men who I have seen who wear a Roman collar as a daily form of dress are priests and religioius brothers. That’s because the collar replaces the cassock or cassock, depending on what they would traditionally wear.
JR
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plato3
Guest
Deacon Ed -You are right on about how the practice varies. My last pastor did not insist on me wearing a dalmatic at any time. I had one ordination white dalmatic that I wore for the Easter Vigil and Easter. That all changed about a year and a half ago. The new priest insisted that the deacon always wear a dalmatic at any Mass-weekday or weekend. A family from the parish donated a couple of dalmatics and my pastor bought a couple, so that I would have all the colors. They can be very expensive. I have 2 made in Poland that are light and inexpensive. Any vestments not bought by the deacon himself stay in the church, so it is a good investment for the parish. Only visitors or new parishioners call me Father. Our parish community knows that only my children can call me Father.
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
I just wish my pastor would allow us to wear dalmatics. The parish is 6 years old and we wore then once. That was when the Archbishop was here to dedicate and consecrate our new worship center. They have not been worn since. We have heard all kind of “excuses” at many different parishes. It distracts and confuses the people. They don’t know who the priest is. And on and on. Give me a break. Simply say you don’t want the deacon to wear them. but put the lame excuses to rest.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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