Dealing with an effiminate son

[cargau]

I have 3 sons (and 2 daughters). We home school. My middle son 12 yo is effeminate, and while sheltered to a degree from the outside world, the gay label has been applied to him by some scouts and sadly his elder brother. I have banned his elder brother for a month from any computer use and I won’t stand for this talk in my home.

I also was somewhat effeminate growing up and questioned my own sexual identity in my teens and 20’s. My question to you is how can I make my son more manly, and not have him question his sexuality to the degree that I did.

He is not into sports - nor am I. He is doing well in school and is emotionally behind his peers. He still likes to play with toys and is nowhere near as mature as his older brother (13 yo).

We are working as a family on his physical fitness merit badge. I would appreciate any thoughts you can offer me.

What is the goal? If it is to do what is necessary to prevent him from becoming a homosexual, that is one thing. If it is to become a person who is comfortable in his skin, even as a homosexual, that is quite another.

Many of the responses involve a nurturing, accepting approach, yet some studies have found that homosexuality may result from a weak father figure or a dominant mother figure. Maybe your son needs you to take a lead and show him how to be a man.

Get some (name removed by moderator)ut from experienced Catholic counselers who have worked with sexual identity issues. Be open to a variety of possible approaches. The one constant he needs (and I am sure you know this), is that he must always be made to feel that he is unconditionally loved by his family.

 

[Actaeon]

My son’s name is Gabriel. I am hearing him being addressed by his peers (mainly scouts) as GAYbrel. Accent on the first syllable.

As an Eagle Scout, I will say with 100% certainty that this behavior being allowed to occur is a direct failure of the leadership of your sons’ troops (and a general lack of supervision, if the leadership doesn’t know about it).

The Boy Scouts is a formative organization, not a “hang out” or “socializing club” for teenagers to berate each other. I would speak to the Scoutmasters, and if they are unwilling or incapable of correcting this ugly behavior on the part of their “scouts”, then I would remove ALL of your children from that troop and place them somewhere that the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters take active roles in participating with the moral development of the scouts.

My 13 yo son who has attitude problems is doing this and I know it is deliberate and he gets severely punished for it. He has been banned from the computer for a month and has to write lines when I even think he is doing this. He has begun to refer to Gabriel as Brel, or “him”.

I had an attitude problem like this one time… one. My dad took me aside, explained what I was doing that was wrong, why it was wrong and then, and this is the part that sank it home, he said the magic words “I’m disappointed in you, I really expected my son to be above that”.

Never tried to walk down that line ever again.

I saw Gabriel playing football with the scouts and he was running like a girl with his arms flapping. This is what caused me to categorize his manner as effeminate.

I don’t know a single girl who actually runs like that… so you might be stereotyping just a bit (as I’m sure that gay guys who choose to run like that are, when they inaccurately think that women run like idiots).

Perhaps instead your son is fairly intellectual (even if emotionally still developing). I was the same way. Maybe instead of approaching it from the angle of “son, you run like a girl”, you could approach it from a matter of pragmatism: “Son, the way that you run isn’t very efficient”.

Then you could draw him some pictures explaining lever action and why it’s important to keep the elbows bent and tucked in (and hands LOOSELY balled into fists) in order to increase efficiency when you run. A good demonstration of this: have him try to run in place at one speed while swinging his arms at a different speed than his feet (it’s nearly impossible to do). From there you can explain how having tight, controlled arm swings is important to good running form and efficiency.

Now - getting to sports. I think there is great virtue in boys doing some form of physical manual labor and even something physical activity wise. It is just my gut feeling. We are starting to lift weights as a family and doing other physical exercise at night. I think Gabriel needs some sort of solitary physical activity - probably not a group sport like football, perhaps something like karate which my elder daughter is interested in.

Probably a good guess, and some sort of martial art is a good one. I tried team sports a few times in high school, and never really enjoyed them. Then I joined cross country and swim team, as well as taking classes in traditional Jiu-Jitsu. It was a much better fit.

I still don’t know jack-doody about sports like football, baseball, basketball, or especially soccer. I’ve observed enough to spout a few names, and every once in a while I’ll watch a game over some beers with the buddies. Ultimately, in the end, what you know about team sports is a relatively trivial aspect of life. I simply don’t have time for all that, and nor do a great many MANY men that I know… and even more important than that: basing manliness off of knowledge of team sports is a sick manipulation of the church’s teachings on theology of the body and what it means to be a man.

 

[SMHW]

Now - getting to sports. I think there is great virtue in boys doing some form of physical manual labor and even something physical activity wise. It is just my gut feeling. We are starting to lift weights as a family and doing other physical exercise at night. I think Gabriel needs some sort of solitary physical activity - probably not a group sport like football, perhaps something like karate which my elder daughter is interested in.

My motivation on coming to you was how to handle how others are reacting to him and prevent him from getting a complex about his identity.

Karate or some form of the martial arts sounds like a good idea. Such activities are good for developing coordination and confidence.

The running with arms flapping seems like it could be a symptom of a lack of overall coordination. But I don’t know that I’d specifically call that an effeminate behavior because it’s not particularly appealing in girls either. I’d be looking into help for a girl who ran like that. I do think it’s likely to be perceived as a weakness by other children so definitely worth “correcting”.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Wow, I sure caused a firestorm here.

Thanks for all of your replies - I have read them all. I greatly appreciate your feedback.

My son’s name is Gabriel. I am hearing him being addressed by his peers (mainly scouts) as GAYbrel. Accent on the first syllable. My 13 yo son who has attitude problems is doing this and I know it is deliberate and he gets severely punished for it. He has been banned from the computer for a month and has to write lines when I even think he is doing this. He has begun to refer to Gabriel as Brel, or “him”.

I saw Gabriel playing football with the scouts and he was running like a girl with his arms flapping. This is what caused me to categorize his manner as effeminate.

Gabriel has asked me what sex was and I told him it his how people reproduce. As a family we have let our kids know that Daddy gives Mommy a special hug to have a baby. They all know the names of their genitalia and about eggs cells and sperm cells, but other than that we have been vague. I have started to have conversations with the 13 yo son about it. I basically asked him what he thought sex was and I realized he was very ignorant and I gave him a very brief overview of it without too many details.

He is now getting physically mature and I am ready to start to talk with him about the physical details of it within the context of theology of the body - BUT he is still very innocent so I will be leaving out a lot of details. I will basically be doing knowledge checks to see where he is maturity wise to see what he needs to know at his maturity level. I’ll definitely cover erections, wet dreams, and masturbation.

I will do this with Gabriel as well, but probably not for 2 years or more.

Now - getting to sports. I think there is great virtue in boys doing some form of physical manual labor and even something physical activity wise. It is just my gut feeling. We are starting to lift weights as a family and doing other physical exercise at night. I think Gabriel needs some sort of solitary physical activity - probably not a group sport like football, perhaps something like karate which my elder daughter is interested in.

My motivation on coming to you was how to handle how others are reacting to him and prevent him from getting a complex about his identity.

You have truly being wonderful - thanks again!

That’s IT??? He runs like a girl and his brother has been teasing him?



Oh, BTW, most girls don’t run that way either…

So it might well be more of a case of sibling rivalry and cruelty than anything real. If that is the ONLY thing that you can point to to label “effeminate,” then you don’t have a concern. It’s just boys being stupid, and if it were me, I’d probably do more than give the 13 year old lines to write.

 

[PhilliesFan]

Thanks guys - I think you are correct - it is not running like a girl - but rather being uncoordinated.

Actaeon - thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I will speak with the scout masters about this.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks guys - I think you are correct - it is not running like a girl - but rather being uncoordinated.

Actaeon - thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I will speak with the scout masters about this.

You make me laugh at a memory. When I was in graduate school, it was not the women graduate students who were awkward at throwing during the intramural softball games, but the Europeans! Of course many of them were fine athletes and even very macho guys, but the only games they had ever played that involved a ball were soccer or racket sports. None had ever played baseball, football, or any sport that required that kind of throwing motion!

 

[EasterJoy]

…I saw Gabriel playing football with the scouts and he was running like a girl with his arms flapping. This is what caused me to categorize his manner as effeminate…

…Now - getting to sports. I think there is great virtue in boys doing some form of physical manual labor and even something physical activity wise. It is just my gut feeling. We are starting to lift weights as a family and doing other physical exercise at night. I think Gabriel needs some sort of solitary physical activity - probably not a group sport like football, perhaps something like karate which my elder daughter is interested in.

My motivation on coming to you was how to handle how others are reacting to him and prevent him from getting a complex about his identity…

Decent running form and basic physical fitness has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Go watch a girls’ soccer game, and you’ll see what I mean. What used to be referred to as a “run like a girl” posture happens either because the runner is holding back or else lacks coordination between his or her arms and legs–usually the latter. They flap their arms because they don’t know what to do with them. Of course girls used to be conditioned that it was not “ladylike” to be too whole-hearted about their participation in sports, so some of them did used to run like that when they had enough coordination to do better, but since Title IX it is easy to see that this running style doesn’t come from true sexual dimorphism.

Just make physical fitness a family thing, not something aimed particularly at your younger son. Your choice, kids, but you have to choose something. I think the American Academy of Pediatrics suggests 30-60 minutes of real exercise every day, but at least five days a week.

I’m not normally for encouraging bickering between siblings, but as for the teasing, let him know that sometimes bullies need to get it as well as they give it out before they knock it off: “My running style? Oh, yes, Parker, I’m sure that’s a great trial for you. You’re so sensitive to what everyone else thinks, I don’t know how you take it. I’ll make sure to act so as to make you proud in the future.” He may never say that, but do let him know that you don’t think it’s his business to worry about what embarrasses or impresses his “sensitive” brother.

 

[Norseman82]

Sometimes kids don’t get interested into sports until later.

And I understand the OP’s concern, because he doesn’t want his son to be harassed.

Kids around that age can be mean, and “gay” remarks are part of the meanness. They may not even be aware of the full implications of what “gay” is (they just learn that it is a way to be mean to someone else); they just want to gang up on someone they see as “weak”.

PhilliesFan, the “family weightlifting” is a good start, and it’s good that you reprimanded your older son for what he did. Perhaps a good “sentence” would be for him to do “mitt drills” with your 12 year old son.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

You make me laugh at a memory. When I was in graduate school, it was not the women graduate students who were awkward at throwing during the intramural softball games, but the Europeans! Of course many of them were fine athletes and even very macho guys, but the only games they had ever played that involved a ball were soccer or racket sports. None had ever played baseball, football, or any sport that required that kind of throwing motion!

I tried to teach football throwing to a German once…so true.
…Of course I look like an idiot playing soccer, too! Looks more like roller derby without the skates.

 

[Eleanor61]

I would agree with the eagle scout that this is a problem with troop leadership. My son in law is an eagle scout, now scoutmaster, and not only he, but the older scouts in leadership positions, would not allow this sort of name calling.
As for the name calling itself, while we would all agree it shouldn’t be tolerated, we all must remember from our school days that it goes on all the time, and many of us have had to learn to let it roll off us, having been teased for any number of flaws. Calling a kid “gay” is particularly insidious, and has become more so in our sexually charged culture, but it went on 40 years ago too.
I have two questions. First, does your son enjoy scouts? Second, is there something wrong with him beyond being immature and uncoordinated? My youngest is 13 and we have not gone into details about sex because he has a low IQ and is simply not ready, or sble to comprehend a lot of information. if he asks a question, we answer it. He is perfectly normal socially, though, so he has rules like “no wrestling with girls” (his best friend is a very pretty tomboy). He also has memorized the boy scout protocol for sexual abuse " recognize, resist, report". Have you gone over that with your son? It is very important. If a child has normal intelligence I think they need pretty solid sex education by 13.
My two eldest boys have zero interest in sports. They are both bookish nerds, computer game players, etc. Both have said that a basic knowledge of sports teams, popular players, news stories, controversies, etc. is indispensable socially. I would not discredit this idea.

 

[tomarin]

Decent running form and basic physical fitness has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Go watch a girls’ soccer game, and you’ll see what I mean. What used to be referred to as a “run like a girl” posture happens either because the runner is holding back or else lacks coordination between his or her arms and legs–usually the latter. They flap their arms because they don’t know what to do with them. Of course girls used to be conditioned that it was not “ladylike” to be too whole-hearted about their participation in sports, so some of them did used to run like that when they had enough coordination to do better, but since Title IX it is easy to see that this running style doesn’t come from true sexual dimorphism.

Just make physical fitness a family thing, not something aimed particularly at your younger son. Your choice, kids, but you have to choose something. I think the American Academy of Pediatrics suggests 30-60 minutes of real exercise every day, but at least five days a week.

I’m not normally for encouraging bickering between siblings, but as for the teasing, let him know that sometimes bullies need to get it as well as they give it out before they knock it off: “My running style? Oh, yes, Parker, I’m sure that’s a great trial for you. You’re so sensitive to what everyone else thinks, I don’t know how you take it. I’ll make sure to act so as to make you proud in the future.” He may never say that, but do let him know that you don’t think it’s his business to worry about what embarrasses or impresses his “sensitive” brother.

I also have been wondering about this assumption everyone is making that being coordinated and good at team sports = macho = hetero. Aren’t there professional athletes who are nevertheless gay (or at least rumored to be)?

 

[EasterJoy]

I also have been wondering about this assumption everyone is making that being coordinated and good at team sports = macho = hetero. Aren’t there professional athletes who are nevertheless gay (or at least rumored to be)?

I think the issue is that the two great things that boys worry about from the time they start puberty until they find a woman who will have them (and sometimes well beyond that, even to the grave, unfortunately) is “can I compete with the other guys?” and “Am I gay?” At that stage in life, both questions are asked in the context of “will I be looked up to or will I be looked down upon?” It is easy at that age to think there is nothing in-between. They may hear there is a difference between humility and humiliation, but rarely do the immature ever see it…and most of us are immature at that age.

Consequently, guys can put an undue pressure on themselves and on every other guy to show through sports that they can compete and through any means available that they are heterosexual…but hey, sports works. Since we don’t pack off to war with the guys we grow up with, sports are the great tribe-maker among men.

Let’s face it: Most girls do not fear being a lesbian, and if they do the fear is nothing like the type of fear felt by a guy who fears failure at heterosexuality. (Note: failure at heterosexuality=homosexuality at this stage, which some guys never lose.) Girls worry about being able to attract a relationship, whether they are popular and whether males find them attractive.

There are some boys, however, who deal with the fear of competing badly by simply staying out of the arena. That is too bad, not because competition is such a great thing but because no one has ever found himself by living according to his fears. Reject sports, fine, but not because you’re afraid you might try for something grand and fall short. That’s a small life.

 

[benjohnson]

As someone who grew up being rather nerdy, I wish someone would have pulled me aside and gave me some coping skills:

Engage in friendly chit chat - it leads to significant conversations and friendships.
Dress normally - people do form opinions based on how you look.
Learn to exercise - a clean and healthily body helps your mind stay clean.

Stuff like that… I hope to be able to have such conversations with my children if the need arises tailored to their ‘deficiencies’ and I commend the OP for not sweeping this under the rug.

 

[SMHW]

I also have been wondering about this assumption everyone is making that being coordinated and good at team sports = macho = hetero. Aren’t there professional athletes who are nevertheless gay (or at least rumored to be)?

Because words like effeminate and gay are such charged words that have both social and moral implications we sometimes loose sight of the what I think the underlying problem is. I think you would get Cesar Milan and Dr. James Dobson to agree on this: People and animals care about who is toughest. In my opinion (and I think that of many others) physical and social awkwardness is naturally viewed as weakness. The weak are typically preyed upon by outsiders or ostracized by “the pack”.

Well, when “the pack” is a bunch of children or young teens then adults need to step in and do two things. First, the adults had better already have established that they are tougher than any of the young people. They need to establish that they “own” the right to determine how members of the group are ranked and treated. Secondly, the adults need to do what they can to see that the individuals in the group can succeed as best as they can. If a group member has a correctable flaw then it should be corrected as best as possible. Awkwardness can usually be corrected. Likewise, bullying can be corrected.

 

[styrgwillidar]

…
Well, when “the pack” is a bunch of children or young teens then adults need to step in and do two things. First, the adults had better already have established that they are tougher than any of the young people. They need to establish that they “own” the right to determine how members of the group are ranked and treated. Secondly, the adults need to do what they can to see that the individuals in the group can succeed as best as they can. If a group member has a correctable flaw then it should be corrected as best as possible. Awkwardness can usually be corrected. Likewise, bullying can be corrected.

Exactly. Boys will rank each other, they will accept the weaker but are constantly assessing status. And they’ll use multiple means of establishing it… how folks respond to stress, teasing, etc. Will they accept their place in the pack? Do they understand/respect my place in the pack? Most importantly---- (and you see this in siblings) how do they respond to stress, can I spin them up easily? Over what points are they sensitive? It’s common to base nicknames (usually insulting to some degree) based on the person’s given name either first or last. There were obvious nicknames based on my last name I heard constantly growing up. Ever hear Johnny Cash’s “A Boy Named Sue?” I’m not saying it’s right, I’m saying it’s reality.

(Note most military training does this. It takes in the new recruits and puts them through intense physical and mental testing. That normally includes the DI berating them and usually creating rather unflattering nicknames. That isn’t done for fun, or tradition. Again, it is about how individuals will respond to stress, how easily do they blow up? Can they control themselves? And ultimately, can I trust them when things are going wrong? How much confidence do they have in themselves-- confident people tend to be competent. Having experienced the joy that is the oversight and guidance by a USMC DI, most of it is about getting a real vice inflated opinion of yourself. Hitting the limits to know your own shortcomings and being able to take pride in your real achievements and understanding yourself better. True confidence.)

Has your kid ever seen the movie “The Iron Giant?” Or “The Sandlot”? The message in “The Iron Giant” is- you are who you choose to be. Not how other people define you, see you, or label you. Good message for your kid right now. He will be who he chooses to be- he is not what others call him or see him as. “The Sandlot” is about a new kid moving into a neighborhood and fitting in. It’s not about succeeding at sports although it’s centered on baseball, the main character isn’t a good player but he participates and it leads to life-long friendships.

But I think your best bet is guiding him towards those things he enjoys and can be good at, whether it’s music, art, dance, individual sports, mechanical activities like woodworking, automobile work etc. I had a friend growing up who was a tremendous artist- never thought of him as gay or effeminate- just wished I’d had his talent. Girls tend to like musicians. I played the flute in band in high school, I got to sit with some very pretty girls but I took a lot of #$% over it. Oddly, mostly from a girl playing clarinet who questioned my sexuality and got some of her male friends to try and hassle me. (Two of whom had the bad luck to have a couple of my friends/teammates from football wander by just as they cornered me to attempt to administer a beating).

I guess my point here is your son needs to understand he is never going to be able to control other’s opinions/perception of him, he can only control his own opinion of himself. If he modifies his behavior or actions ONLY to please others than he has handed over control of his life to others. Sorry, I don’t see that as masculine.

 

[EasterJoy]

Because words like effeminate and gay are such charged words that have both social and moral implications we sometimes loose sight of the what I think the underlying problem is. I think you would get Cesar Milan and Dr. James Dobson to agree on this: People and animals care about who is toughest. In my opinion (and I think that of many others) physical and social awkwardness is naturally viewed as weakness. The weak are typically preyed upon by outsiders or ostracized by “the pack”.

Well, when “the pack” is a bunch of children or young teens then adults need to step in and do two things. First, the adults had better already have established that they are tougher than any of the young people. They need to establish that they “own” the right to determine how members of the group are ranked and treated. Secondly, the adults need to do what they can to see that the individuals in the group can succeed as best as they can. If a group member has a correctable flaw then it should be corrected as best as possible. Awkwardness can usually be corrected. Likewise, bullying can be corrected.

I think, too, that adults need to do what Joey Harrington’s father did, which was to encourage the idea that it is the mark of the most able to be able to captain the least able to do more than anyone else thought possible. In other words, the adults don’t just nip bad behavior in the bud, but set up the ideal that lifting up those who are struggling to the dignity of real contribution as one of the marks that show a young man to be the best of the best. Young men who shrink from that challenge, OTOH, are lesser in the group. They are encouraged to step up and do better.

The OPs older son might need to realize that he’s not making a very good showing of himself. The best older brothers, after all, protect the vulnerable ones in their family and bring them along, acting as coaches, as it were, instead of taking the lazy man’s job of pretending superiority by merely being a sniper.

There are many great quotes by Theodore Roosevelt concerning how worthless mere critics are, compared to those who are willing to go out and do things. In Roosevelt’s world view, even when those who attempt do not succeed they do far better than those who pretend that they accomplish anything by mere criticism of those who try.

 

[styrgwillidar]

…There are many great quotes by Theodore Roosevelt concerning how worthless mere critics are, compared to those who are willing to go out and do things. In Roosevelt’s world view, even when those who attempt do not succeed they do far better than those who pretend that they accomplish anything by mere criticism of those who try.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.- Theodore Roosevelt”

I have this quote in my ‘Notable Quotables’ file and it is in fact posted on my 14 yr old son’s door.

 

[Cat]

I also have been wondering about this assumption everyone is making that being coordinated and good at team sports = macho = hetero. Aren’t there professional athletes who are nevertheless gay (or at least rumored to be)?

There is a difference between being “gay” and being effeminate. Heterosexual men can be effeminate; we see this all the time in the figure skating world.

The Bible condemns both homosexuality and effeminacy separately.

 

[tomarin]

There is a difference between being “gay” and being effeminate. Heterosexual men can be effeminate; we see this all the time in the figure skating world.

The Bible condemns both homosexuality and effeminacy separately.

Exactly. And that’s precisely why I’m fairly certain there are gay professional athletes who appear entirely manly. I think it may have been an open secret among NHL insiders that Mark Messier was one?

Just out of curiosity, where does the Bible condemn effeminacy in men?

 

[The_Bucket]

I think, too, that adults need to do what Joey Harrington’s father did, which was to encourage the idea that it is the mark of the most able to be able to captain the least able to do more than anyone else thought possible.

Joey Harrington was an awful quarterback. I wouldn’t follow his example, at least not when it comes to throwing a football. Or leading a team for that matter.