Dealing with criticism in my parish community when discussing infertility treatment

[Viewer]

sin has plenty of excuses

Yes, like not purposefully killing people. That seems like a pretty reasonable on to me.

Unless like I said, you advocate murder as a better option.

If anyone wants to keep on at me instead of addressing this topic, bring it to the PM’s.

 

[april32010]

Honestly, it’s not the “IVF is immoral” comments that I get. It’s the “Maybe God is telling you you’re not mean to be a parent” comments that I want to address. I’ve long since accepted the fact that there will always be a divide between Catholics who pursue ART and Catholics who will counsel us against the sin.

Perhaps “defend” was not the right word I was looking for. It’s more of needing to diffuse/redirect when well-intentioned folks take their comments too far.

you came expecting support for mortal sin , and we didn’t fall in line.i get it,but don’t expect everyone to console you about all the big mean Catholics attacking you for trumpeting your willful intent to commit mortal sin

 

[Winter_Warlock_1]

For those attacking Cider, I will pray for you all also, “that you remove the plank from your own eye before removing the speck from your neighbors”. Matthew 7:3

All Cider did is try to offer comfort to someone who is hurting / depressed / and scared – so and as he pointed out he knows what the Church teaches and he has made a choice to remain faithful to his vows and his wife. To live together – yet separate will cause harm to the marriage - and to tell someone “you have to live like that” is wrong.

Remain strong in faith Cider and may God bless you and your wife also.

Winter

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Yes, like not purposefully killing people. That seems like a pretty reasonable on to me.

Unless like I said, you advocate murder as a better option.

If anyone wants to keep on at me instead of addressing this topic, bring it to the PM’s.

He is advocating celibacy, which is not a sin. Nor is it a sin for you to deny your wife if a pregnancy would truly put her life at risk. What is a sin is using contraceptives to circumvent the difficulties in your life.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

Out of curiosity, is there a reason that you’re going the ART route, instead of, say, the NaPro Technology, or something along those lines, route??) Infertility stinks, for sure…

I’ve charted for all 5 years. I have annovulatory cycles, one damaged fallopian tube that cannot be surgically repaired, and a structurally malformed ovary. We’ve ruled out anything that can be “fixed” surgically.

Combine that with significant male factor infertility, and we’ve been told that the most successful route would be IVF with ICSI. I was not willing to go that far straight out of the gate. We’ve done medicated cycles with timed intercourse. We’ve done medicated cycles with IUI.

Because of motility and morphology issues with my husband, GIFT is not a realistic option- the success rates are significantly lower than IVF at an almost equal cost as IVF due to anesthesia and facility fees.

I don’t discredit NaPro- it’s a great option for women who have reparable issues or for those who are not dealing with significant male factor infertility. But NaPro techniques are not viable solutions for those dealing with complex IF issues.

 

[Cider]

sin has plenty of excuses

Boy is that the truth, and a defiant attitude also.

 

[april32010]

Bride,

I will pray that all works out for you and your husband.

But my view: it is no one elses concern what you are going through to conceive. she made it others concern by bragging about it and your view has no weight in regard to the teaching of the Church,and by affirming this decision you are encouraging sin God has granted us (people) the ability to heal / cure / repair and comfort each other. God tells us from the very beginning to be “Fruitful and Multiply”. I also view a lot of our ailments to be caused because of all the pollutants that we have thrown all over Gods world – not punishment from God.

There are those that believe that if we have an illness that we should just pray and if it is Gods will we will be cured. And in some cases that is so blessfully true. But we also have doctors that can do God’s will by healing us. And that is what you are doing. no,what her and husband are doing is committing a mortal sin

Remain strong in Faith and always trust in God.

Winter

 

[Rau]

NFP? Uh huh…We tried that with our first three children. Don’t get me wrong, I love them dearly and wouldn’t wish it any other way but all of them were conceived during “infertile” periods. We were practically tearing each others hair out reviewing everything for mistakes but there were none. I have become skeptical at very best of NFP and “infertile” times.

My wife is actually Orthodox, but far more liberal and “progressive” minded than myself.

And it is not a sin? Hrm, I remember being berated by a Catholic priest (relative of hers) for not giving into her “demands” often enough .

That’s right, I’m exercising my will to not leave my children without a mother. How dare I.

Obviously, they were conceived during fertile periods!

NFP, is more effective effective than condom use. Not my assessment, but I can find and send you a link of measured effectiveness of many contraceptive practices, as well as NFP, which reports just this result.

Viewer, you have good reason to avoid pregnancy, but you are choosing the most convenient means available to do that, and not even the most effective.

May I ask, do you subscribe to catholic teaching on contraception at all, or in certain circumstances?

 

[april32010]

For those attacking Cider, I will pray for you all also, “that you remove the plank from your own eye before removing the speck from your neighbors”. Matthew 7:3

All Cider did is try to offer comfort to someone who is hurting / depressed / and scared – so and as he pointed out he knows what the Church teaches and he has made a choice to remain faithful to his vows and his wife. he has made a choice to sinTo live together – yet separate will cause harm to the marriage - and to tell someone “you have to live like that” is wrong.

Remain strong in faith Cider and may God bless you and your wife also.

Winter

 

[Cider]

Honestly, it’s not the “IVF is immoral” comments that I get. It’s the “Maybe God is telling you you’re not mean to be a parent” comments that I want to address. I’ve long since accepted the fact that there will always be a divide between Catholics who pursue ART and Catholics who will counsel us against the sin.

Perhaps “defend” was not the right word I was looking for. It’s more of needing to diffuse/redirect when well-intentioned folks take their comments too far.

As someone who has suffered with infertility myself I hear you. People make stupid suppositions that they sometimes think are helpful. I once had someone close to me tell me that the baby must not have been normal anyway, as explanation for my miscarriage as if that was going to make me feel better.

Most people just don’t know what to say. They don’t. Because honestly, nothing they say is going to change what is happening or make it ok… It frankly sucks and that is all their is too it. What I did was limit discussing it to people that were able to just listen and sympathize without feeling the need to make sense of it all. I found that in my best friend from High School. Even if it’s only one person find them and if you have to remind them when you are just venting or just want a shoulder to cry on.

Next time someone asks when you guys will have kids just smile and say something vague. Whatever works for you. In Gods time. We’re working on it. Practice makes perfect. Or smile, ignore it and change the subject.

 

[Winter_Warlock_1]

April

I disagree; Bride did not post here to “brag” she posted looking for comfort and understanding – not attacks. It is easy for some to point “the sharp end of the stick” at others without fully understanding what they are going through. It seems that a lot of people here read Bride’s post and the only thing they can focus on and shout about is “sin” not that there is a fellow Catholic that is scared / worried / and maybe depressed.

A question for you arpil – do you have kids?

If not how would you feel if you wanted and could not have?

And if you do have kids – then you are blessed – and why deprive another of the joy that you have. A bit selfish in my opinion.

Winter

 

[Viewer]

Obviously, they were conceived during fertile periods!

NFP, is more effective effective than condom use. Not my assessment, but I can find and send you a link of measured effectiveness of many contraceptive practices, as well as NFP, which reports just this result.

Viewer, you have good reason to avoid pregnancy, but you are choosing the most convenient means available to do that, and not even the most effective.

May I ask, do you subscribe to catholic teaching on contraception at all, or in certain circumstances?

I’m not sure it’s the most convenient, certainly not the most effective but I am extremely doubtful of the effectiveness of NFP. The very nature of it leaves you open to having more children, something we certainly are not and we use multiple methods (Diaphram, Condoms, the Pill) that leave no room for being “open”.

As to the teaching itself…I see the need for it (clearly if we don’t reproduce there will be fewer Catholics) but as to it’s viability I remain neutral. Although myself and my wife employ it primarrily on grounds of her health, many of the families with great numbers of children I know of are in dire straights financially. Two have lost their homes in fact.

Do I see the reasoning behind it as an ideal? Absolutely. Do I think it can be employed universally?..No.

Edit: +1 for Winter-Warlocks thought provoking and compassionate posts so far.

 

[Cider]

For those attacking Cider, I will pray for you all also, “that you remove the plank from your own eye before removing the speck from your neighbors”. Matthew 7:3

All Cider did is try to offer comfort to someone who is hurting / depressed / and scared – so and as he pointed out he knows what the Church teaches and he has made a choice to remain faithful to his vows and his wife. To live together – yet separate will cause harm to the marriage - and to tell someone “you have to live like that” is wrong.

Remain strong in faith Cider and may God bless you and your wife also.

Winter

I think you are confusing me with someone else?

By the way, I’m female.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

she made it others concern by **bragging **about it

I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

brag (brăg)
To talk boastfully

boast (bōst)
To speak of with excessive pride.

I don’t think that sharing my journey with infertility would fit either of those definitions. If you think it does, then anyone who shares their battle with cancer or any other illness would also be bragging.

 

[Winter_Warlock_1]

well spoken Bride.

 

[Winter_Warlock_1]

Cider,

Yes I confused you with Viewer.

Oops

 

[Viewer]

well spoken Bride.

And thank you Winter, your thoughts are appreciated

 

[PennyinCanada]

and not using the Catholic Condom.

What are you referring to?

It’s a very odd decision to come on a Catholic forum and ask such a question.
You have the option of adoption.
You have the option of fostering.
You have the option of coaching extra curricular activities and making yourself more available for good works and volunteering.
You have the option of being submissive to the will of God in this matter and not pursuing methods forbidden by the Church. In being submissive to God, you will gain great merit for yourself, your marriage, and the entire world.

Please don’t go up for Communion while pursuing this path. It’s like an unmarried couple living together and the parish knows. It would give scandal and it would bring condemnation upon yourself, as stated in scripture, for receiving the Lord unworthily while in unrepentant sin.

I am very sorry that you have chosen as a couple to come out from the umbrella of the blessing of God. You are on your own now.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes- the reason most people don’t talk about loss or infertility is because of the insensitive comments of others. There is NO shame in grief. There is NO shame in mourning a child you have lost. There is NO shame in the reality that not everyone gets pregnant at the drop of a hat.

The ONLY way that there will ever be cultural change when it comes to how people speak with/to/about those struggling with pregnancy loss and infertility is if we stop hiding in the shadows. It’s not gossip when you are the one speaking about it. It’s not gossip when you make it know that you are OK with answering questions. It’s not gossip when you invite the conversation.

I want to stick to the original question–how to keep parishioners from lecturing you about not following some Church teaching or other–and not go any further into your decision, because you were very clear about not wanting any advice about that.

With all due respect, I do not think you are talking about a cultural change. I think you’re talking about changing human nature. Since sex ceased to be a taboo subject, people have done nothing but talk about it. Has this kept people from making insensitive comments or butting in where they were not invited? No. Has it kept people from gossiping about the sex lives of others? No. The same goes for every personal topic I can think of. I cannot think of a single exception!

If you do not want unsolicited advice, disclose less. If you have to, tell people that they have crossed a boundary and that you need to set some particular topic in the range of taboo in order to preserve the friendship. I don’t see any help for that. If you don’t like what people let fly out of their mouths, don’t try to retrain their thinking. Ask that they stop talking.

 

[KCT]

If and when we move on to IVF, we plan on adopting any leftover embryos to another infertile couple. We do not plan to leave any “frozen babies” behind- those that we are unable to safely transfer will be given the opportunity to be carried, birthed, and raised by another Christian family.

Leftover embryos? You might give your unborn children to another couple?