Dealing with criticism in my parish community when discussing infertility treatment

[april32010]

April

I disagree; Bride did not post here to “brag” she posted looking for comfort and understanding – not attacks. It is easy for some to point “the sharp end of the stick” at others without fully understanding what they are going through. It seems that a lot of people here read Bride’s post and the only thing they can focus on and shout about is “sin” not that there is a fellow Catholic that is scared / worried / and maybe depressed.

A question for you arpil – do you have kids?

If not how would you feel if you wanted and could not have?

And if you do have kids – then you are blessed – and why deprive another of the joy that you have. A bit selfish in my opinion. sin is selfish and encouraging sin is narcissistic

Winter

 

[Rau]

I am very sorry that you have chosen as a couple to come out from the umbrella of the blessing of God. You are on your own now.

NO! She is not on her own. We don’t abandon people. We will help however we can. Our path remains open and all are welcome to return to it.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

Leftover embryos? You might give your unborn children to another couple?

Absolutely. The last time I checked adoption is not against the teachings of the Catholic church.

Why leave our unborn children perpetually frozen when they could have the opportunity at life? If an embryo is a child, and Catholics support the adoption of children, then how could a Catholic in good conscience deny the chance of life with loving parents to an embryo? God calls us to defend the orphan (James 1:27).

 

[MJJean]

Religion aside, I don’t think it’s a good idea to be discussing your fertility treatments with such a wide audience. Medical things like that are complicated enough without going through the rumor mill. Furthermore, if they work you’ll be worried about judgement over IVF/multiple births/the money you spent/all the issues that go along with IVF. If they don’t work, you’ll be front and center while everyone is either feeling sorry for you or feeling grateful that IVF failed.

Some things should remain private. How babies are made is one of them, regardless of whether or not medical intervention is involved.

Pretty much what I was thinking.

OP, I am sorry for your fertility troubles. From the heart, really. I can’t imagine how difficult and painful this has been for you. But if you’re a Catholic and know the teachings of the Church you can’t be surprised by lecturing from other Catholics once you decided to make your decision to pursue IVF public knowledge.

From now on, I’d simply not talk about it and if someone else brings it up I would thank them for their care and concern and then tell that person my husband and I aren’t talking about it anymore.

Also, if the treatments are successful I would caution against telling anyone about the pregnancy until you are past the first trimester. I know it’s tempting to shout it from the rooftops, but the reality is miscarriage is common and you don’t want to give the congregation and fuel for the fire. Honestly, I wouldn’t tell anyone outside the family. I’d just let the baby belly inform them

 

[UnCatholicBride]

Pretty much what I was thinking.

OP, I am sorry for your fertility troubles. From the heart, really. I can’t imagine how difficult and painful this has been for you. But if you’re a Catholic and know the teachings of the Church you can’t be surprised by lecturing from other Catholics once you decided to make your decision to pursue IVF public knowledge.

From now on, I’d simply not talk about it and if someone else brings it up I would thank them for their care and concern and then tell that person my husband and I aren’t talking about it anymore.

Also, if the treatments are successful I would caution against telling anyone about the pregnancy until you are past the first trimester. I know it’s tempting to shout it from the rooftops, but the reality is miscarriage is common and you don’t want to give the congregation and fuel for the fire. Honestly, I wouldn’t tell anyone outside the family. I’d just let the baby belly inform them

You’re right. Miscarriage is common. Sure, the risk of pregnancy loss declines after 12 weeks, but you’re definitely not safe from loss. When we do become blessed with a pregnancy, we plan on sharing with those who we know we could turn to with any other loss. There definitely won’t be any “announcing” in a public way (such as social media, mention in cards, etc) until I’m showing.

 

[april32010]

I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

brag (brăg)
To talk boastfully

boast (bōst)
To speak of with excessive pride.

I don’t think that sharing my journey with infertility would fit either of those definitions. If you think it does, then anyone who shares their battle with cancer or any other illness would also be bragging.

your pride in deciding to commit a mortal sin and telling fellow parishioners and fellow Catholics on this forum and the attempts to defend this decision are indicative of excessive pride

 

[Cider]

Absolutely. The last time I checked adoption is not against the teachings of the Catholic church.

Why leave our unborn children perpetually frozen when they could have the opportunity at life? If an embryo is a child, and Catholics support the adoption of children, then how could a Catholic in good conscience deny the chance of life with loving parents to an embryo? God calls us to defend the orphan (James 1:27).

Any embryos you created during IVF are not orphans.

 

[KCT]

Absolutely. The last time I checked adoption is not against the teachings of the Catholic church.

Why leave our unborn children perpetually frozen when they could have the opportunity at life? If an embryo is a child, and Catholics support the adoption of children, then how could a Catholic in good conscience deny the chance of life with loving parents to an embryo? God calls us to defend the orphan (James 1:27).

I have 2 adopted cousins. They were from a family with 4 kids. One day the biological mom decided she couldn’t deal with four kids and chose 2 to give away. Those kids (now adults) had a tough time dealing with the fact that their mom did not want them.

Why would you not want all your kids? If God blesses you with them, why would you give them away?

 

[Rau]

Leftover embryos? You might give your unborn children to another couple?

That is a bit strange. If more than one child is produced by the procedure, would not the parents wish to implant each of the embryos (serially) and thus bring up all their children?

 

[Cider]

That is a bit strange. If more than one child is produced by the procedure, would not the parents wish to implant each of the embryos (serially) and thus bring up all their children?

Yet another sad side effect of IVF mentality. Once you remove God from the picture there is nothing left but you and want you want.

 

[hurtandhealing]

I’ve charted for all 5 years. I have annovulatory cycles, one damaged fallopian tube that cannot be surgically repaired, and a structurally malformed ovary. We’ve ruled out anything that can be “fixed” surgically.

Combine that with significant male factor infertility, and we’ve been told that the most successful route would be IVF with ICSI. I was not willing to go that far straight out of the gate. We’ve done medicated cycles with timed intercourse. We’ve done medicated cycles with IUI.

Because of motility and morphology issues with my husband, GIFT is not a realistic option- the success rates are significantly lower than IVF at an almost equal cost as IVF due to anesthesia and facility fees.

I don’t discredit NaPro- it’s a great option for women who have reparable issues or for those who are not dealing with significant male factor infertility. But NaPro techniques are not viable solutions for those dealing with complex IF issues.

Did you chart with FertilityCare? Did you actually go to www.popepaulvi.com? Unless you have been to Dr. Hilgers or one of his trained surgeons, you cannot know if you can be treated. (They do treat male infertility issues as well.)

Some interesting information is available at this time on EWTN which I recommend for everyone.

Tonight at 6:30pm Eastern: Echoes of our Choices
With infertility on the rise, many couples are not fully educated on all the issues and risks involved in reproductive assistance. Neonatologist Robin Pierucci and Dr. Tom Hilgers of NaPro Technology address the risks of in vitro fertilization.

Tonight at 10pm Eastern and Wednesday Jan 29 at 9:30pm Eastern: Voices in the Desert
The history and impact of Humanae Vitae on Dr. Thomas Hilgers and colleagues at the Pope Paul VI Institute, who developed new morally and medically superior treatments for infertility and a range of other women’s healthcare issues.

Wednesday, Jan 29 at 8pm Eastern: EWTN Live
Dr. and Mrs. Hilgers will be the guests.

(BTW other posters, she is not planning to give away her children but to implant unwanted children other parents have discarded.)

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It’s either that or my wife suffers death by pregnancy.

Are you advocating she dies? I thought purposefully killing someone was a mortal sin too, and impregnating her would be doing just that.

I have always wondered about this type of thinking. Birth control has a fail rate. Actually a high fail rate. So no matter what you are using, you risk getting pregnant. How can a husband know that there is a 2 percent chance he kills his wife every time they have sex and still declare that he loves her? Aren’t you really buying into a lie that will lead to death?

 

[Caroline723]

The last time I checked, artificial insemination has not created dead babies, as we have yet to even successfully have ONE fertilized embryo created in my uterus.

If and when we move on to IVF, we plan on adopting any leftover embryos to another infertile couple. We do not plan to leave any “frozen babies” behind- those that we are unable to safely transfer will be given the opportunity to be carried, birthed, and raised by another Christian family.

As to why I posted on CAF- I certainly know that I am not the only Catholic to pursue fertility treatment with ART. I simply wanted to hear how others have dealt with the community aspect of those decisions.

I am sympathetic to the suffering you have experienced in not being able to conceive naturally. I really am. I have a sister and a sister-in-law who are both infertile. My sister adopted two children from China. My sister-in-law is going to a Napro specialist to try to conceive by morally acceptable means. If she can’t, she will adopt.

There are so many arguments against in vitro:

1. There are loads of children out there in need of parents. Did you hear about Davion Only, the 15 year old boy in Florida born to a mother in jail, who spent his entire life shuffling between foster homes, and finally stood up in a church and begged for someone to adopt him? You do not need to do someone immoral and unnatural in order to be a parent. When you prayed, did you ever consider that the good that God brings from the evil of infertility is that this population can take care of those children without parents? Did you consider whether you are called to that?
2. Children conceived by in vitro are statistically more likely to get cancer, have asthma and other respiratory issues, and have developmental delays. More than half of them spent their first weeks or months in a NICU. Honestly, you would chance that suffering on another person, just so you can have a flesh and blood child? Have you been to a NICU and seen those babies, with tubes down their throats, and needles in their limbs?
3. Because it’s so expensive, doctors usually implant several embryos, and then abort the extras if they all implant. Are you prepared to do that, or to have multiples? And if you have multiples, you do realize that what I described in 2) is all the more likely?
4. You are going to donate your extra embryos to other couples? I assume that you are doing in vitro instead of adoption because you and your husband want a biological child. Do you realize that you are taking away from those “extra embryos” a life with biological parents? It’s so important for you, but not so important for them?

I agree that there could be more support for couples struggling with fertility, with miscarriages, etc. Like this couple:

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2542212/Mother-shares-heartbreaking-photos-baby-miscarried-19-weeks.html

There is a great quote by Iyanla Vanzant:
“The voice I had accepted as Divine Guidance was actually the voice of my ego leading me right into destruction.” Like someone else said, feeling “peace” isn’t a reliable indication that you are acting morally. Peace is a virtue of the conscience. If your moral compass is not set properly, it is not your conscience but your ego that is sending those peace signals.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

Did you chart with FertilityCare? Did you actually go to www.popepaulvi.com? Unless you have been to Dr. Hilgers or one of his trained surgeons, you cannot know if you can be treated. (They do treat male infertility issues as well.)

(BTW other posters, she is not planning to give away her children but to implant unwanted children other parents have discarded.)

No, I used FertilityFriend. Same theory- charting basal body temperature and secondary fertility signs such as cervical mucous and OPK test strips to p(name removed by moderator)oint ovulation. Outside of E2 blood draws, it’s the only way to confirm if you’re ovulating.

And no, I did not see a NaPro doctor. I have, however, seen three of the top reproductive endocrinologists in the midwest along with a consult with two gynecological surgeons, who have all concurred that my tube is beyond surgical correction.

My husband also consulted with two urologists who specialize in male infertility to rule out structural abnormalities that could be causing his issues.

And we are open both to adopting embryos discarded by other IVF couples, as well as donating extra embryos after our family is complete. This may be a moot point if we only have a few embryos that make it to transfer stage.

I am sympathetic to the suffering you have experienced in not being able to conceive naturally. I really am. I have a sister and a sister-in-law who are both infertile. My sister adopted two children from China. My sister-in-law is going to a Napro specialist to try to conceive by morally acceptable means. If she can’t, she will adopt.

There are so many arguments against in vitro:

1. There are loads of children out there in need of parents. Did you hear about Davion Only, the 15 year old boy in Florida born to a mother in jail, who spent his entire life shuffling between foster homes, and finally stood up in a church and begged for someone to adopt him? You do not need to do someone immoral and unnatural in order to be a parent. When you prayed, did you ever consider that the good that God brings from the evil of infertility is that this population can take care of those children without parents? Did you consider whether you are called to that? We have. And at this time we have not felt called to adopt
2. Children conceived by in vitro are statistically more likely to get cancerthe link between IVF and BWS has not been confirmed, and actually several studies have refuted this with larger cohort studies, have asthma and other respiratory issues they have not determined if it is causal or correlative. The risk is actually higher in ALL births to women of subpar fertility, regardless of method of conception, and have developmental delays. Tge risk was negated when the researchers looked only at single births, suggesting the risk of developmental delays is linked with a multiple gestation pregnancy More than half of them spent their first weeks or months in a NICU. again, this is only when looking at multiple births. The risk of NICU stay is not statistically significant in singleton IVF babies than the general population
3. Because it’s so expensive, doctors usually implant several embryos, and then abort the extras if they all implant. Are you prepared to do that, or to have multiples? And if you have multiples, you do realize that what I described in 2) is all the more likely? We are only willing to transfer two embryos to reduce the risk of a higher order multiple pregnancy

You are going to donate your extra embryos to other couples? I assume that you are doing in vitro instead of adoption because you and your husband want a biological child. Do you realize that you are taking away from those “extra embryos” a life with biological parents? It’s so important for you, but not so important for them? Because the difference for the child is to have a life with non-biological parents vs no life at all.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The OP mistakenly believes she is a martyr for other Catholics that have the same anti christ values.

This is not heroic. Not unselfish, and certainly not holy or from God. Willful disobedience when you know the issue and the teaching is about as close to hell as one can get.

How to deal with the criticism? Take it, let it transform your heart to Him. Refrain from receiving Him in the Eucharist because not only are you in potential mortal sin but you are certainly not in communion with the Church. And for Petes sake, stop scandalizing others by talking about your sin and then being upset when they don’t wish to eat the apple you are offering!!!

 

[april32010]

thanks HD,

 

[Viewer]

I have always wondered about this type of thinking. Birth control has a fail rate. Actually a high fail rate. So no matter what you are using, you risk getting pregnant. How can a husband know that there is a 2 percent chance he kills his wife every time they have sex and still declare that he loves her? Aren’t you really buying into a lie that will lead to death?

I go by what the highly qualified medical practitioner told me during my wife’s stay in hospital. As such I do believe what I was told, and have taken all of the reccomened steps suggested to avoid it (one of them was to “throw that NFP bull**** out of the window, it’s all funded by biblethumpers and doesn’t work” [his words]).

I think when it comes to medicine and preserving life he knows an awful lot more than I ever will.

As to the original topic…I can’t imagine how difficult it must be to not be able to have a child (biologically) of your own. Adoption is a potential option, but I know it is something not everyone can “wrap their head around” so to speak (my own wife for instance, I have always wanted to adopt at least one child but she fears she wouldn’t feel the same affection for it as our own). I also know in some places it has very strict standards for who can adopt a child (someone on minimum wage for instance where I live would never qualify) but this is not the case everywhere.

As such I am going to just stand by my original advice, it’s only God you have to explain yourself to one day, so only worry about that.

You will never be alone UnCatholicBride, so whoever suggested that earlier on in this thread needs to pull their head out of their ***. I honestly do find myself wondering if that stick would be as far up your backside if it was yourself in such a difficulty. Until you are, show a little more consideration (and no, that does not always equate approval before you say that).

 

[manualman]

Infertility is a crushing pain and miscarriage is even harder. It’s great that the OP wishes to reach out to help and support fellow people suffering similar burdens. Kudos for great intentions. I don’t mean to slam you, but there’s no getting around the fact that in spite of good intentions, you’ve walked off the cliff and are encouraging others to follow you.

Sadly, Americans are suckers for believing that good intentions justify nearly anything. They don’t. If with the best of intentions and loving concern, I give a sick loved one a medicine that I THINK will cure their symptoms but is actually rat poison, they still die. My good intentions do nothing to alleviate the effects of the poison. So it is with sin.

It’s not the fault of most people today that we moderns are clueless about the gift of procreation and the complex way in which it is profoundly woven into the tapestry of love and sexual intimacy. We’ve been trained from youth by the culture we live in to see children as optional accessories that women can choose to have and choose to raise (or not) with a significant other. Our culture sees procreation as a CHOICE of our WILL, not as a gift from God subtly built into our natures. As such, we see no danger of chopping apart the fragile and beautiful bonds that connect marriage, intimacy, fidelity, sacrifice, etc.

We are Americans and we will have what we want and do what it takes to get it. Then we’re surprised that our culture falls apart. Shocked at rampant divorce, promiscuity, unwed pregnancy, serial marriages, subreplacement family sizes, STDs and so on. These things ALL come from a refusal to understand human sexuality as an integrated ecosystem of things mutually dependent on each other. We try to divide the whole into the parts and wonder why everything turns into a mess.

IVF and AI reduce procreation to a mere technological procedure, instead of a gift given by God. Like it or not, the mindset willing to do these things necessarily adopts a view of human nature and genesis that is materialists and beneath the dignity of mankind created in God’s likeness. Easy for me to say with three kids (and Viewer, that’s 13 years with ZERO surprise pregnancies and zero contraceptive use. And zero people accusing me of being a contraceptive user…) The OP has my sympathies and I’d never be blunt like this in casual conversation, but if she’s leading a nominally catholic ministry for those suffering infertility issues, she’s hurting them at least as much as she’s helping.

 

[april32010]

I go by what the highly qualified medical practitioner told me during my wife’s stay in hospital. As such I do believe what I was told, and have taken all of the reccomened steps suggested to avoid it (one of them was to “throw that NFP bull**** out of the window, it’s all funded by biblethumpers and doesn’t work” [his words]).any doctor that would say this is incompetent

As such I am going to just stand by my original advice, it’s only God you have to explain yourself to one day, so only worry about that. yes,someone who ignores the teaching of his Church will have a lot of explaining to do

 

[PennyinCanada]

NO! She is not on her own. We don’t abandon people. We will help however we can. Our path remains open and all are welcome to return to it.

People have not abandoned her, it’s the other way around. They as a Catholic couple, have turned their backs on God. They understand what the Church teaches and they have decided to do otherwise. It’s like a couple who are not married but decide to live together. They have come out from the umbrella of God’s blessing by their own decision. Of course they can return to God’s plan and I hope they do. If I were their neighbor, I would shovel their walk or cut their grass if they were away, feed their cat or water their flowers. That would not change. They have changed their relationship with God.