Dealing with criticism in my parish community when discussing infertility treatment

[Viewer]

People have not abandoned her, it’s the other way around. They as a Catholic couple, have turned their backs on God. They understand what the Church teaches and they have decided to do otherwise. It’s like a couple who are not married but decide to live together. They have come out from the umbrella of God’s blessing by their own decision. Of course they can return to God’s plan and I hope they do. If I were their neighbor, I would shovel their walk or cut their grass if they were away, feed their cat or water their flowers. That would not change. They have changed their relationship with God.

Golly, it must be nice up on high on your big white horse looking down upon your lessers little miss Paladin.

Did you forget your Judge’s hammer for the kangaroo court here today?

 

[manualman]

Tanget, if I may:
Viewer,

I have an MD friend in general practice who did an OB rotation during medical residency. He received zero, zip, nada medical information or training on the subject of NFP. The medical field quite simply neglects the topic in favor of pill dependency. So when a doctor tells you it’s worthless, ask him how much education on the matter he really had. Probably nothing.

It’s not like it’s black magic. EVERY mammal makes distinct fertility symptoms that one can use the scientific method to learn to identify and track patterns for. This isn’t conceptually hard stuff. It takes discipline and consistency, but it’s not rocket science. Complexity for normally healthy women consists of having toilet paper, hands, normal vision/senses and being able to count to four (Billing’s method).

 

[manualman]

Golly, it must be nice up on high on your big white horse looking down upon your lessers little miss Paladin.

She essentially paraphrased what sin is and the effect it has on our soul. Perhaps it would have been humbler to admit to her own frequency of getting wet and needing to return to the umbrella, I suppose. But are you rejecting the catholic ideas of sin, forgiveness and Grace and asserting that those teachings are innately condescending?

 

[PennyinCanada]

As such I am going to just stand by my original advice, it’s only God you have to explain yourself to one day, so only worry about that.

You will never be alone UnCatholicBride, so whoever suggested that earlier on in this thread needs to pull their head out of their ***. I honestly do find myself wondering if that stick would be as far up your backside if it was yourself in such a difficulty. Until you are, show a little more consideration (and no, that does not always equate approval before you say that).

Yes, she will have eternity to ponder her choices.

I was the poster who said she is on her own. By her own decision to turn her back on God, she has come out from the umbrella of God’s blessing. This is what I stated that by being in mortal sin, and continuing in mortal sin, she has pushed God away. That makes me shiver for her. Your words to me were unkind, but that’s fine, what you said doesn’t bother me. To be clear, I have had a miscarriage and never conceived again, so I was indeed in her shoes. We did not choose to offend God in our married life and sexuality. But we all have free will and each of us will give an account for our lives. Sometimes we forget that in our daily grind, and I am glad to have CA here.

 

[Viewer]

Tanget, if I may:
Viewer,

I have an MD friend in general practice who did an OB rotation during medical residency. He received zero, zip, nada medical information or training on the subject of NFP. The medical field quite simply neglects the topic in favor of pill dependency. So when a doctor tells you it’s worthless, ask him how much education on the matter he really had. Probably nothing.

I did ask out of curiosity how he knew about the practice, and claimed to be a Catholic who had “converted” to Judaism, and had been taught NFP as part of his Catholic pre-cana for his first marriage (his second wife being Jewish).

He appeared to understand it better than I did, I certainly couldn’t quote all the cycles, biological terms and the sort off the top of my head.

It’s not like it’s black magic. EVERY mammal makes distinct fertility symptoms that one can use the scientific method to learn to identify and track patterns for. This isn’t conceptually hard stuff. It takes discipline and consistency, but it’s not rocket science. Complexity for normally healthy women consists of having toilet paper, hands, normal vision/senses and being able to count to four (Billing’s method).

Indeed, but to this day I can’t see where we went wrong with the tracking. It was suggested that since my wife has had so many complications during her pregnancies she may have “irregularities” in her cycle, hence she was fertile when she shouldn’t have been and vice versa.

Perhaps it works for some such as yourself, but it just never worked for us

She essentially paraphrased what sin is and the effect it has on our soul. Perhaps it would have been humbler to admit to her own frequency of getting wet and needing to return to the umbrella, I suppose. But are you rejecting the catholic ideas of sin, forgiveness and Grace and asserting that those teachings are innately condescending?

Not at all, I reject the way it was phrased and put forward. As you mention yourself we all “get wet”, and a little more humility wouldn’t go amiss instead of presenting oneself as infallible or near to it.

 

[Viewer]

Yes, she will have eternity to ponder her choices.

I was the poster who said she is on her own. By her own decision to turn her back on God, she has come out from the umbrella of God’s blessing. This is what I stated that by being in mortal sin, and continuing in mortal sin, she has pushed God away. That makes me shiver for her. Your words to me were unkind, but that’s fine, what you said doesn’t bother me. To be clear, I have had a miscarriage and never conceived again, so I was indeed in her shoes. We did not choose to offend God in our married life and sexuality. But we all have free will and each of us will give an account for our lives. Sometimes we forget that in our daily grind, and I am glad to have CA here.

Yes, they were. I too could have chosen better words and I do apologize for my use of them. I am sorry to hear of your miscarriage, and clearly the issue is somewhat closer to home for you than myself (lacking a womb ) but I still don’t feel any of us can really call someone out to that extent. We clearly do not know all the factors in play and to pass judgement not knowing all of them (something only God knows) would be unwise.

Advise? Certainly, when done with consideration and in the right way. Preach damnation and make them feel utterly outcast? No, that only drives people further away.

 

[PennyinCanada]

Golly, it must be nice up on high on your big white horse looking down upon your lessers little miss Paladin.

Did you forget your Judge’s hammer for the kangaroo court here today?

Don’t be mean.

Is it being on a high horse to say that drinking and driving can be disastrous? It is a kindness although the alcoholic may swear and call you names, and proceed as usual.

 

[Viewer]

Don’t be mean.

Is it being on a high horse to say that drinking and driving can be disastrous? It is a kindness although the alcoholic may swear and call you names, and proceed as usual.

No, but when I try to pull one of my drunk friends from their cars my requests are always done with consideration, and for the greatest success it must always be done gently.

I doubt threatening them with or implying the wrath of god would do anything but agitate them.

 

[PennyinCanada]

Advise? Certainly. Preach damnation and make them feel utterly outcast? No.

I am not preaching damnation. They can return to God tomorrow, or 20 years, but I wanted to say plainly that they have left. It’s easy not to see that if they continue to go to Church on Sunday and receive the Eucharist.

When driving a car, there’s a ton of rules to learn. If a driver says, I’m so very tired of staying in this lane with the cars backed up for miles, and the other lanes are free, I’m taking those and I’ll be ahead much faster. Or these red lights are really slowing me down, I’m not paying them any attention. Well what happens is that the disaster happens pretty quickly and it doesn’t take much to realize that following the rules of the road are good for us. We don’t have that ‘benefit’ when we leave the teaching of the Church. We often see what our decisions brought us 40 years down the road. It’s a friend who says, “Don’t do that”.

 

[manualman]

Perhaps it works for some such as yourself, but it just never worked for us

Not at all, I reject the way it was phrased and put forward. As you mention yourself we all “get wet”, and a little more humility wouldn’t go amiss instead of presenting oneself as infallible or near to it.

Indeed NFP doesn’t work well for some. Sadly, a lot of that is because doctors are generally not trained to actually heal women with irregular cycles. Instead, they use brute chemical force (pill) to mask underlying problems in a lot of women. Places like Creighton University have done a lot towards improving the situation of such women, but the knowledge is not broadly distributed in the medical, even OB/GYN field. It’s easier and quicker for them to prescribe a pill at the end of a 20 minute consult, bill $200 and move on to the next 20 minute patient window than to do a lot of investigating to diagnose the problem and determine approaches to actually resolve the issue. PCOS is the biggest example of this.

As for your point about Penny, she’s mostly right in concept if not balanced in regard to the fact that we’re ALL sinners. She’s wrong to take it on herself to judge their sins as mortal. Grave matter yes. Mortal, only God knows and judges for sure. We should be thankful that’s not our job, but an awful lot of us seem to want to take it on ourselves!

 

[PennyinCanada]

No, but when I try to pull one of my drunk friends from their cars my requests are always done with consideration, and for the greatest success it must always be done gently.

I doubt threatening them with or implying the wrath of god would do anything but agitate them.

You haven’t been very gentle with me.
Again, I have not threatened them or implied the wrath of God. Gosh, you are very busy putting words in my mouth.

Off to make supper. God bless you.

 

[hurtandhealing]

No, I used FertilityFriend. Same theory- charting basal body temperature and secondary fertility signs such as cervical mucous and OPK test strips to p(name removed by moderator)oint ovulation. Outside of E2 blood draws, it’s the only way to confirm if you’re ovulating.

And no, I did not see a NaPro doctor. I have, however, seen three of the top reproductive endocrinologists in the midwest along with a consult with two gynecological surgeons, who have all concurred that my tube is beyond surgical correction.

My husband also consulted with two urologists who specialize in male infertility to rule out structural abnormalities that could be causing his issues.

And we are open both to adopting embryos discarded by other IVF couples, as well as donating extra embryos after our family is complete. This may be a moot point if we only have a few embryos that make it to transfer stage.

I do hope you are off watching that first show. Please, please, watch Voices in the Desert. Unfortunately, you acknowledge Napro without trying it. Your simple description of Fertility Friend is NOT FertilityCare. Your “top” surgeons, do not have the knowledge, training, experience and expertise as the Napro Surgeons. You will see that in the Voices video or if you try to get some full healing from them. (And I do acknowledge that even with their expertise, you may not achieve a pregnancy.)

Full disclosure: my first Napro miracle occurred after over 10 years of infertility, over 3 years after my last surgery and over 2 years after we stopped all treatment. You see, we knew that we had the best treatment and that the BEST infertility specialist in the world (and I mean that in all sincerity - check out the stats). We accepted that God’s answer to all our prayers was, “no.”

Here is the amazing thing: God doesn’t always say yes or no. Lots of times, he says NOT RIGHT NOW!!!

(We are back to defined infertility and because we love and trust our Lord, that He wants us with Him more than we want that and that He will send ALL we need to be able to attain Heaven, we are sadly accepting that he is probably saying “no” again, with the quiet hope that one day, he will say “YES!”)

 

[Viewer]

You haven’t been very gentle with me.
Again, I have not threatened them or implied the wrath of God. Gosh, you are very busy putting words in my mouth.

Off to make supper. God bless you.

No, I haven’t and I do apologise.

Not directly, but your metaphor of being out from under the umbrella was quite implicit that the original poster was now an outcast.

I do wish you well Penny

PS: It may actually surprise you all but I do generally stand by the church’s teaching on IFV, but from my own situation regarding condoms I know there are many factors in play with any decision, my ignorance of which makes me reluctant to condemn.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

Any embryos you created during IVF are not orphans.

How so? The definition of an orphan is one who has been deprived of parental care.

So you have two options:

Either a frozen embryo is a human, and therefore a child- a child who has been deprived of parental care.

OR

a frozen embryo is not a human

if you are saying that a frozen embryo is not an orphan,
then you are saying an embryo is not a human this would mean that life does not begin at conception.

If you believe a frozen embryo is not an orphan, then you are saying an embryo is not a human. If an embryo is not human, then the destruction of an embryo is not murder.

If the destruction of an embryo is not murder, then there is no biblical justification to oppose abortion.

 

[johnnyc176]

it’s only God you have to explain yourself to one day, so only worry about that.

Maybe I am misunderstanding but I have seen this stated a few times in this thread by Catholics. Usually said like ‘it’s between me and God.’ As if Jesus and His Church are separate. You are aware that the teachings of the Church are the teachings of Jesus?

 

[Rau]

How so? The definition of an orphan is one who has been deprived of parental care.

So you have two options:

Either a frozen embryo is a human, and therefore a child- a child who has been deprived of parental care.

OR

a frozen embryo is not a human

if you are saying that a frozen embryo is not an orphan,
then you are saying an embryo is not a human this would mean that life does not begin at conception.

If you believe a frozen embryo is not an orphan, then you are saying an embryo is not a human. If an embryo is not human, then the destruction of an embryo is not murder.

If the destruction of an embryo is not murder, then there is no biblical justification to oppose abortion.

I think the point may be that the “unused” embryos are still your children. Why do you not want to bring them up too?

 

[UnCatholicBride]

I do hope you are off watching that first show. Please, please, watch Voices in the Desert. Unfortunately, you acknowledge Napro without trying it. Your simple description of Fertility Friend is NOT FertilityCare. Your “top” surgeons, do not have the knowledge, training, experience and expertise as the Napro Surgeons.

How is Fertility Friend any different than Fertility Care (Creighton model).

Creighton Model: Based solely on menstrual patterns and cervical mucous consistency, based on the assumption that the consistency of cervical mucous (stretchy like eggwhites) indicates a woman’s ovulation. This consistency of cervical mucous is caused by the spike of lutenizing hormone LH just prior to ovulation.

Using the creighton model, you can time bloodwork and ultrasounds more accurately to monitor hormonal changes that may indicate infertility issues.

Fertility friend: uses basal body temperature and the assumption that after ovulation there is a temperature spike, with secondary fertility signs such as the presence of fertile (eggwhite/stretchy) cervical mucous and OPK sticks used to predict imminent ovulation as the temperature spike is only seen after ovulation.

Using basal body temperature and the secondary fertility signs, doctors can time bloodwork and ultrasounds more accurately to monitor hormonal changes that may indicate infertility issues.

 

[KCT]

How so? The definition of an orphan is one who has been deprived of parental care.

So you have two options:

Either a frozen embryo is a human, and therefore a child- a child who has been deprived of parental care. .

A child. Not a commodity to be created in a lab and extras given away.

If you’re real and not a troll, think of how those lab made and given away children will feel when they learn of their creation.

Yes, adoption is wonderful and generous, but it does not make up for being unwanted by you.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

I think the point may be that the “unused” embryos are still your children. Why do you not want to bring them up too?

So then would it be immoral for a woman to place an unplanned child she was not prepared (financially, emotionally, or for any other reason) for adoption?

If it’s immoral for a woman to place a child for adoption, then protesting abortions by stating that adoption is a loving alternative would be leading someone to sin.

 

[Viewer]

Maybe I am misunderstanding but I have seen this stated a few times in this thread by Catholics. Usually said like ‘it’s between me and God.’ As if Jesus and His Church are separate. You are aware that the teachings of the Church are the teachings of Jesus?

I’m…Pretty certain Jesus didn’t roll up by an IVF clinic during his sojourn on earth and share his opinions on it.

The teachings we have from the church are what we have inferred from related topics and the decisions of the magisterium. While I am in agreement on the matter this is the same institution that took until 1965 to outlaw slavery, so unless you suggest our saviour approved of it for almost 2000 years then took a u-turn…

The Church teaches Jesus teachings, but in regards to slavery and usury it clearly is capable of developing its understanding of them. Perhaps in time the current view will evolve also and IFV will come to be seen as a cure to a disease, or remain as it is. I think the latter but I am open to the concept that I could be wrong.

It’s not the Pope who is going to be examining your case on judgement day, it is God. So yes…His opinion is a priority, and we’ve clearly buggered up working out what that means before. (cough Torture being used by Benedictine inquisitors hack)