Dealing with criticism in my parish community when discussing infertility treatment

[Rau]

You can never be certain how many embryos will be created. For all I know we could only end up with 2 fertilized embryos to transfer. Perhaps we could end up with 5. If we ended up with more than what is considered safe to transfer (2 is the max you should transfer to avoid the risks of a higher order multiple pregnancy) then the rest of the embryos would be frozen.

That’s not to say that we wouldn’t use them. That’s not to say that we wouldn’t be open to a subsequent pregnancy or pregnancies.

But once an embryo is created, the horse is out of the barn so to speak. If we were not in a position to raise an additional child/children, the decision to place a remaining embryo/embryos for adoption would be no different than a couple who had an unplanned pregnancy choosing to place the child for adoption.

So, is it fair to say that you are NOT planning to give away those babies beyond 2? Is it fair to say that you will aim to (over time) accept as many of the embryos as you are able, and bring them up? Able does not mean be “comfortable with”, it means accepting your responsibility to bring your children up as your own, to the extent possible for you? It means accepting that in all but the most exceptional circumstances, the children have a right to their biological parents, and you have a duty to deliver on that right.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

I have to say, and this is from somone who entered into this with a dislike of IVF I find Bride’s arguments to be the most compelling thus far.

Don’t get me wrong, I find the process itself more than enough to creep me out and I wary enough about the failure rates to not consider taking a u-turn.

Looking at things from strictly a “success rate” lens

A fertile couple has a 20% chance of conception leading to pregnancy in any given month with perfect timing of intercourse.

The national average success rate of pregnancy resulting from IVF is 46.2%

So if you were looking strictly at mitigating the risk of failing to achieve pregnancy outside of morals and finances, IVF would actually be the more efficient way to achieve pregnancy.

But that is neither here nor there.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Youre doing the right thing OP. You want to bring life into this world, do it. Its no one elses business. You arent doing anything wrong. Its what I would do if I had to. If people dont like it, then whatever.

With all due respect, claiming you know what the right thing is by presenting yourself as being fully capable of making a determination that NO wrong is being done in this case just because it is what you would do, may not be adequate for truly assessing the full moral implications of this case.

Just as a piece of practical advice to you. Why would you want to risk counseling others concerning very important moral decisions with little regard for what grave moral harm may result for both you and them?

Better perhaps to express your empathy with them in working out what to do but admit an easy answer is not what you can offer.

I suggest this article by someone who has seriously considered the issue as a neuroscientist, ethicist and theologian:

ncbcenter.org/page.aspx?pid=317

Also:

ncbcenter.org/page.aspx?pid=1167&txtSearch=Ivf

When the lives and moral well-being of others are at stake, off the cuff emotional assurances are easy to dash off but you won’t be present to back up that advice, nor will you have the power to determine any real moral consequences.

 

[Rau]

… Yet I don’t see anyone saying that a married couple placing a child for adoption is immoral.

It depends on the circumstances. Adopting out one’s children for personal convenience, as opposed to necessity, is an abrogation of personal responsibility, and is wrong.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

So, is it fair to say that you are NOT planning to give away those babies beyond 2? Is it fair to say that you will aim to (over time) accept as many of the embryos as you are able, and bring them up? Able does not mean be “comfortable with”, it means accepting your responsibility to bring your children up as your own, to the extent you are able? It means accepting that in all but the most exceptional circumstances, the children have a right to their biological parents, and you have a duty to deliver on that right.

Yes. Because I have precancerous changes to the lining of my uterus, the timeframe in which I have the ability to keep a uterus (and therefore transfer remaning embryos) is limited, but we are open to attempting to transfer as many of the frozen embryos as subsequent pregnancies will allow.

But if I end up having to have a hysterectomy due to continued changes to my uterus before we are able to attempt pregnancy with all frozen embryos, our decision would be to place remaining embryos with another infertile couple (Christian) vs leaving them frozen until the second coming of Christ.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

It depends on the circumstances. Adopting out one’s children for personal convenience, as opposed to necessity, is an abrogation of personal responsibility, and is wrong.

So then would it be wrong to suggest a woman choose adoption over abortion if the only reason for her abortion is that she does not want to raise a child?

 

[Peter_Plato]

I have to say, and this is from somone who entered into this with a dislike of IVF I find Bride’s arguments to be the most compelling thus far.

ncbcenter.org/page.aspx?pid=278

Excerpt:

When asked why IVF might be immoral, people will usually mention the extra embryos that are frozen or discarded. Such embryos are certainly a serious concern, but they are not the primary reason the Church insists the procedure is immoral. Even if IVF were done without making any extra embryos at all, this way of making babies would still be morally objectionable, because the procedure strikes at the very core and meaning of marital sexuality. It substitutes an act of laboratory manipulation for an act of bodily union between spouses. It turns procreation into production. IVF is really the flip-side of contraception: rather than trying to have sex without babies, we try to have babies without sex. Because many Americans have come to view sex largely in terms of recreation, ignoring its procreative orientation, they have lost touch with the grave violations that occur both in contraceptive sex and in making babies in test tubes.

Clearly, the moral violations that occur in IVF do not reflect upon the child, who is innocent. It is not the baby’s fault in any way. The child has no control over how he or she got here. Regardless of how a baby comes into the world, whether by IVF, whether by adultery, by pre-marital sex, or even by cloning, that baby is always a gift and a blessing. The problem with IVF is not with the child, but with a decision made by the parents concerning how to pursue the satisfaction of their own desire for a child. In other words, babies, even when very much desired, should not be brought into the world by making use of disordered means such as adultery, pre-marital sex, IVF, or cloning. They should be brought into the world only within that intimate love-giving moment of the marital embrace. Children are entitled to come into being as the fruit of a singular parental love that is uniquely manifested in the spousal moment of bodily surrender to each other. …

When we take this immoral step, others quickly follow, including the freezing or even the discarding of our own children, as if they were a form of medical waste. By making test tube babies, we first violate the sacred human act by which we hand on life. It is then but a short step to go further and violate the very life itself that we produce in the laboratory.

Is it not reasonable and right to insist, as the Church does, that new human life should be the fruit of married love, carried out through bodily self-giving between spouses, this act which allows each partner to enrich the other with the total gift of himself or herself? The marital act embodies spousal love directly, exclusively and authentically. Can we say the same for IVF, where the woman upsets her delicate hormonal cycles and subjects herself to repetitive injections with powerful drugs to make her body produce unnaturally large numbers of eggs, and where the man may be expected to go into a back room with salacious magazines and videos to “provide a sample”? Can we really say that IVF embodies spousal love in an authentic and exclusive way when a lab technician ends up being the causal agent of the pregnancy, instead of the spouses themselves through a sacred act proper to their married love? By any stretch, can we honestly believe that IVF is faithful to God’s design for marriage?

We sometimes tend to brush the ungainly and unsightly parts of the procedure under the rug and instead try to focus on the result, the baby, so as to mitigate the disturbing reality of what we are really engaging in. Some couples also may rest their approval for IVF on a perfunctory assumption, namely: “We have a right to a child when we get married, so any means, even IVF, should be okay.” But the deeper truth is that we never have a right to a baby. A child is not our property or our possession. Rather, a child is a gift, one we hope God will send us, one we stand ready and eager to receive, but certainly not an entitlement or a right for us. When we marry, we properly have a right to those beautiful, life-giving acts we call marital acts, which open us up to the mysterious divine spark at the heart of human love. Those remarkable marital acts are the only human acts appropriately ordered to engendering the incredible gift of new human life.

 

[Rau]

So then would it be wrong to suggest a woman choose adoption over abortion if the only reason for her abortion is that she does not want to raise a child?

Given the children exist, the right course is to bring up one’s own children whenever possible. And clearly adoption, pursued for the wrong reason (eg. Selfishness) is a lesser evil than abortion. Surely no one suggested otherwise?

I would be interested why, in your earlier posts, you initially forecast that excess embryos would be adopted out. Is this in anticipation of your future medical situation, in anticipation of future capacity to bring up a family of 3 or more children, or a preconceived view that a family of 2 children is where you’d like to be?

 

[UnCatholicBride]

Given the children exist, the right course is to bring up one’s own children whenever possible. And clearly adoption, pursued for the wrong reason (eg. Selfishness) is a lesser evil than abortion. Surely no one suggested otherwise?

I would be interested why, in your earlier posts, you initially forecast that excess embryos would be adopted out. ** Is this in anticipation of your future medical situation**, in anticipation of future capacity to bring up a family of 3 or more children, or a preconceived view that a family of 2 children is where you’d like to be?

Due to the condition that I have, my only option is to be on birth control (or progesterone only induction of menses every 30 days) whenever I am not actively trying to conceive. And even then I still have a statistically significant liklihood of developing uterine cancer.

It’s not an easy pill to swallow that I’m most likely going to need a hysterectomy within the next 5 years.

Originally before infertility, my husband and I both hoped for a family of at least six children. Now we are praying for the opportunity to have any at all.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Yes. Because I have precancerous changes to the lining of my uterus, the timeframe in which I have the ability to keep a uterus (and therefore transfer remaning embryos) is limited, but we are open to attempting to transfer as many of the frozen embryos as subsequent pregnancies will allow.

But if I end up having to have a hysterectomy due to continued changes to my uterus before we are able to attempt pregnancy with all frozen embryos, our decision would be to place remaining embryos with another infertile couple (Christian) vs leaving them frozen until the second coming of Christ.

reflectionsofaparalytic.com/?p=6571

creativeminorityreport.com/2011/03/ivf-is-not-just-for-infertility-but.html

ncregister.com/site/article/orphaned-at-conception/

 

[marywarfield]

I did ask out of curiosity how he knew about the practice, and claimed to be a Catholic who had “converted” to Judaism, and had been taught NFP as part of his Catholic pre-cana for his first marriage (his second wife being Jewish).

He appeared to understand it better than I did, I certainly couldn’t quote all the cycles, biological terms and the sort off the top of my head.

Indeed, but to this day I can’t see where we went wrong with the tracking. It was suggested that since my wife has had so many complications during her pregnancies she may have “irregularities” in her cycle, hence she was fertile when she shouldn’t have been and vice versa.

Perhaps it works for some such as yourself, but it just never worked for us

Not at all, I reject the way it was phrased and put forward. As you mention yourself we all “get wet”, and a little more humility wouldn’t go amiss instead of presenting oneself as infallible or near to it.

No one is presenting themselves as infallible. They are presenting
the Church’s teachings as infallible. And just like was
earlier stated if you reject that you do it alone
because God will not force you to remain.

If I came on the forum and said hey after much
prayer I decided to abort because I really don’t
want kids and then complained about people
reminding me its a sin? You would probably
think I was a troll. Then if I announced that I was
publicly announcing my intention to abort on a catholic
forum and inside my own church because of
my humility? Lmao haha. No way!

I also suffered from infertility the first eight years
of my marriage. We stopped at using a mild
hormone stimulator known as Clomid. We did
that as there is way more grace and dignity in
being barren then there is in being a machine
with extra embryos being aborted etc. We had
already experienced two miscarriages and one
stillbirth.

We also could not adopt as our finances then
would not have passed muster.

For some reason a year after we gave up and
embraced our childless lifestyle I became pregnant.
We were then told (erroneously) that I had lupus
and other issues that would result in my death
and the child’s death snd were counseled to abort.
that was not an option. I had a healthy baby boy
and no problems except he was four weeks early.

I was told I should have my tubes tied because
although I was lucky this time a future pregnancy
would kill me. Failing that be celibate. Fortunately
my husband left the decision to me. I had a little girl
born at term but through a c section as I had a
stroke during labor.

After that I thanked God for one of each which was
actually one more than I had ever thought to have.

I didn’t get pregnant again which was probably
a good thing as I was now forty years old.

Point is it is NOT entirely in your hands or
the doctor’s hands- God still does obviously
have a day in these things. I used to make
the joke He created me so He could poke
fun at doctors.

There is no shame in infertility, loss of children
or barrenness. A person can live a beautifully
holy and dignified life with all three.
But once you depart from the Church’s teachings?
The dignity is gone, you get what you want
maybe but definately NOT what is best in the
long run.

 

[Rau]

Due to the condition that I have, my only option is to be on birth control (or progesterone only induction of menses every 30 days) whenever I am not actively trying to conceive. And even then I still have a statistically significant liklihood of developing uterine cancer.

It’s not an easy pill to swallow that I’m most likely going to need a hysterectomy within the next 5 years.

Originally before infertility, my husband and I both hoped for a family of at least six children. Now we are praying for the opportunity to have any at all.

OK, thanks for being forthcoming. And thanks for the good grace and civility with which you’ve participated on this thread, notwithstanding nearly no responses to your initial query (though I guess you know you’re asking the wrong people), and nearly no one being on-side with your course of action.

If you do proceed with IVF, and there are excess embryos that you are incapable of carrying - if that is our starting point - adoption may be the “best” available option. I don’t know whether processes for such ‘transactions’ even exist though. Thinking laterally, their is surrogacy, where another person carries the child for you. I hasten to add that I have no knowledge of the morality or legality of that - though I suspect someone will. I know Catholic ethicists have studied these issues.

I do hope you will consider and pray for guidance on the merits of adopting a child in need of parents, in preference to creating children in need of parents.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

Religion aside, I don’t think it’s a good idea to be discussing your fertility treatments with such a wide audience. Medical things like that are complicated enough without going through the rumor mill. Furthermore, if they work you’ll be worried about judgement over IVF/multiple births/the money you spent/all the issues that go along with IVF. If they don’t work, you’ll be front and center while everyone is either feeling sorry for you or feeling grateful that IVF failed.

Some things should remain private. How babies are made is one of them, regardless of whether or not medical intervention is involved.

Clearly you and your husband have made your minds up. I don’t think it was prudent to share with a wide audience such a personal and nuanced thing. Now that the cat is out of the bag, my only suggestion would be to not bring it up anymore. If someone else does thank them for their concern, be polite but don’t give further information either way, then change subject when appropriate. Hopefully parish members will let it drop or assume that you have changed your mind.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

Clearly you and your husband have made your minds up. I don’t think it was prudent to share with a wide audience such a personal and nuanced thing. Now that the cat is out of the bag, my only suggestion would be to not bring it up anymore. If someone else does thank them for their concern, be polite but don’t give further information either way, then change subject when appropriate. Hopefully parish members will let it drop or assume that you have changed your mind.

And why not? Again, there is no shame in having a disorder or disease. It would be no different than sharing a cancer diagnosis.

 

[EasterJoy]

And why not? Again, there is no shame in having a disorder or disease. It would be no different than sharing a cancer diagnosis.

You aren’t under the impression that people with cancer don’t have to weather all sorts of insensitive remarks? Do you think that no one ever blames a cancer victim for behaviors that were risk factors for cancer? Or that they don’t get a hundred suggestions for what they unknowingly did to get their cancer? Or that they don’t have things still being blamed on their chemo treatment for years afterward? (Forgot our appointment? Must be chemo brain…)

You’ve found here just how well “I don’t want to talk about my decision” works. If you don’t want to talk about your objection to the teachings of the Catholic Church, don’t go into a group of people who are gathered precisely in order to learn and adhere to and encourage each other to keep the teachings of the Catholic Church and announce your intentions. The predictable results are not what you want.

 

[bstorm]

Dear Bride,

I do understand where you are coming from. I really do. The pain of infertility can be a very difficult cross to bear. But each one of us suffers. This is your cross to bear, just as other people have theirs. Oftentimes, by trying to avoid bearing our crosses we create even bigger problems, heavier crosses to bear. You are in the process of creating your own heavy crosses right now. You think that IUI or IVF will solve your problems and heal your pain. And maybe, temporarily, they might. You might receive the child you long for. But there is always a price to pay. The Church does not have all these guidelines about what is moral and immoral out of some perverse need to torture infertile people. Those teachings are our guideposts - they are there to keep us from making our life more difficult than it already is and help us to reach heaven. Embrace your cross and do not be afraid - God loves you and will take care of you. Return to Him.

Your infertility is not some sign that God does not wish you to have children, as some people like to tell infertiles without thinking. Does God wish for paraplegics not to walk or for blind not to see? Does God wish for certain people to have cancer? I certainly do not believe so. Infertility is a disease. Sometimes it can be treated, sometimes it cannot. Why it happened to you or me or to anybody else nobody knows. But it certainly is not God’s doing or his will. We might never understand why - it is the mystery of suffering. (I personally blame this on Adam and Eve. )

 

[on_the_hill]

And why not? Again, there is no shame in having a disorder or disease. It would be no different than sharing a cancer diagnosis.

Yeah…but…you didn’t pick a particularly sympathetic audience to share with.

I mean, there’s been a whole lot of finger-pointing and cries of “Sinner! Sinner!” throughout this thread, which, frankly, I hope non-Catholics don’t read.

But at the same time, the rule book says you broke the rules. Do with it what you will. Everyone’s got to make their own decisions.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

Yeah…but…**.you didn’t pick a particularly sympathetic audience to share with. **

I mean, there’s been a whole lot of finger-pointing and cries of “Sinner! Sinner!” throughout this thread, which, frankly, I hope non-Catholics don’t read.

But at the same time, the rule book says you broke the rules. Do with it what you will. Everyone’s got to make their own decisions.

Actually I chose to not hide the truth from an unsympathetic audience. It’s not like I only told my Catholic friends of our struggles, it’s that I did not exclude my Catholic friends from the knowledge.

 

[on_the_hill]

Actually I chose to not hide the truth from an unsympathetic audience. It’s not like I only told my Catholic friends of our struggles, it’s that I did not exclude my Catholic friends from the knowledge.

I was thinking more along the lines of CAF.

 

[gardenswithkids]

And why not? Again, there is no shame in having a disorder or disease. It would be no different than sharing a cancer diagnosis.

There’s nothing wrong with sharing that you struggle with infertility, but what you are sharing with people doesn’t stop there. You are sharing that you think the Church teachings are wrong and that you do not follow them. If you share that in Catholic settings, people may remind you of the Church teachings.

As EasterJoy mentioned, plenty of people have heard insensitive remarks from other people when they shared a medical diagnosis. People make all kinds of insensitive comments about family size too—and not just those who struggle with infertility. You probably won’t ever be in the position of announcing your fourth, fifth, sixth pregnancy or beyond, but believe me, people can be quite rude to families in that situation too!

I feel a great sympathy for people who struggle with infertility. I feel like those of us who follow the Church teachings and who accept all the children God has planned for us have much in common. Some faithful Catholics accept zero and that helped me to accept eight.

Knowing an infertile couple helped me greatly at one point in my struggles with the Church teachings. That (non-Catholic) couple went on to adopt through international adoption, but before that they did try IVF several times. They spent thousands and thousands on infertility treatments and those treatments were never successful. Realizing how much they valued pregnancy and fertility helped me accept my own fertility. Infertile couples bear a special cross as they remind us that we can’t plan everything about our families and that fertility, pregnancy and children are blessings that we should not take for granted.

You do not have to hide your struggle with infertility. You do not have to suffer silently after miscarriage. But please do not openly promote that you think the Church is wrong and expect Catholics to sit back and say nothing! It may tempt others who struggle with infertility to follow you instead of following the Church.

The Church teachings are difficult. I know. Infertility is not easy, but frankly fertility isn’t always easy either. People readily medicate fertility away, surgically cut working reproductive organs or put latex and chemicals between themselves and their sexual partners to prevent reproduction because many people don’t really see the value of fertility the way you do now. You have what many people want, and they take contraceptions and have surgery to make themselves infertile. The Church–and infertile couples who desire babies–remind us that fertility, pregnancy and children are blessings.

I am very sorry that you are struggling with this cross, but like you say, there is no shame in infertility. Our society needs good Catholics in families of all sizes. Prayers for you in your struggle. May God grant you and your husband grace to follow Church teachings.