Dealing with criticism in my parish community when discussing infertility treatment

[EasterJoy]

Actually I chose to not hide the truth from an unsympathetic audience. It’s not like I only told my Catholic friends of our struggles, it’s that I did not exclude my Catholic friends from the knowledge.

One thing you can’t automatically fault people for when they stick their nose into your business is a lack of sympathy. The most good-hearted helpful people are both the greatest offenders with regards to minding their own business and the biggest help when it comes to helping when no one else wants to bother.

The people who object when someone they care about is giving up Church teaching in times of great difficulty is that they care about their souls. They believe that moral teachings are there for our welfare, not that these are just rules put in place by some unfeeling bureaucracy somewhere.

Let us say you had cancer, and you decided that instead of doing what your doctor said, it was in your best interest to treat your problem some way that seemed better to you, and you announced this at your oncology clinic, to the other patients. If you announce to everyone at your fertility clinic that the doctors there are a bunch of quacks who don’t understand your case, for that matter, of course you’re going to get some discussion about your choice there, too!

I could go on, but you get the point. Your pastor is the physician of your soul. The Church is there to preach the ultimate in wellness and life. Your fellow parishioners are fellow patients who have put their lives in the hands of your pastors, too. Think of your choice that way, and you see that this isn’t about shame and it isn’t even about infertility. It is about the care of souls, and souls that are not individuals seeking care, but individuals seeking to join in a single life, the life of Christ, which is a moral life. You have been announcing a lack of trust concerning precisely that object of trust around which the community is ordered and into which they have placed their souls. You cannot realistically hope that you’re going to be left alone about such an announcement, not if the people listening are actually listening and do care about you.

Does that make sense?

 

[VivienneJ]

This thread has been in my mind off and on all day. Infertility is indeed a huge trial, I experienced it mildly, but my elder daughter is really having problems (4 grandchildren in my signature all belong to the younger daughter).

However, I keep thinking that if someone was planning to commit some action that was against the law, and their friends kept advising them not to do so and why, that person would hardly go to a site run by officers of the law and ask for advice on what to say when friends advised not to pursue said action. Not the best analogy, I know, but that is similar to what is happening here.

I also find it most unfortunate that the babies created through IVF are frequently referred to as ‘embryos’; I feel this makes it easier to regard them as ‘commodities’ rather than the babies they are.

 

[Viewer]

Indeed…It has one that I have been considering over the past few hours myself. I still find the concept of the procedure deeply unsettling and the reasons for standing against it but by the same token I do understand we are also called to challenge unjust laws.

It was less than a century ago that it would have been unthinkable to preform a mass in anything other than Latin, and God has not smote us for attending one in the vernacular. I honestly do find myself questioning now if we can ascribe infertility to “Gods will”.

Is it Gods will when a child is born without limbs or a cleft lip? Is it Gods will when a hemophiliac risks bleeding to death when they prick their finger on a thorn? Are these all the judgements of God, or are they malfunctions of nature we can work around?

I think this all bears consideration rather than automatic dismissal.

 

[KCT]

Whatever you do, good luck.

 

[TraderTif]

I do hope you are off watching that first show. Please, please, watch Voices in the Desert. Unfortunately, you acknowledge Napro without trying it. Your simple description of Fertility Friend is NOT FertilityCare. Your “top” surgeons, do not have the knowledge, training, experience and expertise as the Napro Surgeons. You will see that in the Voices video or if you try to get some full healing from them. (And I do acknowledge that even with their expertise, you may not achieve a pregnancy.)

Full disclosure: my first Napro miracle occurred after over 10 years of infertility, over 3 years after my last surgery and over 2 years after we stopped all treatment. You see, we knew that we had the best treatment and that the BEST infertility specialist in the world (and I mean that in all sincerity - check out the stats). We accepted that God’s answer to all our prayers was, “no.”

Here is the amazing thing: God doesn’t always say yes or no. Lots of times, he says NOT RIGHT NOW!!!

(We are back to defined infertility and because we love and trust our Lord, that He wants us with Him more than we want that and that He will send ALL we need to be able to attain Heaven, we are sadly accepting that he is probably saying “no” again, with the quiet hope that one day, he will say “YES!”)

Amen to that!!! I saw over a dozen different doctors, who all pretty much agreed that I’d never have children. (Especially as I hadn’t cycled in over a decade, and only 3 times in my whole life, by the time I was 30.)

I started seeing NaPro doctors a few years ago. And my husband and I are now expecting our second kid…(and we haven’t been married 2 years yet, lol)

Not that NaPro can fix everything - I have friends who have not had success - but you can’t know if you don’t try. (And it’s usually quite a bit cheaper than IVF)

 

[KCT]

Is it Gods will when a child is born without limbs or a cleft lip? Is it Gods will when a hemophiliac risks bleeding to death when they prick their finger on a thorn? Are these all the judgements of God, or are they malfunctions of nature we can work around?.

God’s will can be direct (like creation) or permissive (permitting something).

So lack of limbs, illnesses and such are not a judgement. They are permitted for some reason. We just don’t always get to know why.

 

[Viewer]

So lack of limbs, illnesses and such are not a judgement. They are permitted for some reason. We just don’t always get to know why.

But if they are permitted as opposed to prevented that surely must imply one of two options, they are desirable or pleasing to the Lord in some manner, or merely a freak occurrence he doesn’t deign to intervene upon for unknown reasons.

I would prefer to think the latter, and if we run with that hypothesis are we not permitted to try and change it? Otherwise why do we bother with medicine at all, we would provide a prosthetic limb to a child with one leg surely?

If we run with the former theory we run into the rather more dark prospects of God not being fair, just or benevolent.

 

[on_the_hill]

But if they are permitted as opposed to prevented that surely must imply one of two options, they are desirable or pleasing to the Lord in some manner, or merely a freak occurrence he doesn’t deign to intervene upon for unknown reasons.

I would prefer to think the latter, and if we run with that hypothesis are we not permitted to try and change it? Otherwise why do we bother with medicine at all, we would provide a prosthetic limb to a child with one leg surely?

If we run with the former theory we run into the rather more dark prospects of God not being fair, just or benevolent.

I tend to agree with Viewer’s view.

I tend not to think that a tragedy is God’s Will, or that it is God’s design so that some future good may come of it.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

I also find it most unfortunate that the babies created through IVF are frequently referred to as ‘embryos’; I feel this makes it easier to regard them as ‘commodities’ rather than the babies they are.

Because once they’re implanted, that’s what they are- a human embryo.

Technically they’re a human blastocyst at the stage of development of transfer, but that’s just splicing hairs.

After 8 weeks of gestation they are a human fetus.

After 40 weeks of an uncomplicated pregnancy, it is a human newborn.

Just like you wouldn’t call an acorn an oak tree, a human zygote, blastocyst, or embryo is developmentally different than a baby. They’re all human, but they’re at different stages of growth.

Why call humans “infants, toddlers, preschoolers, teenagers, adults, or seniors?” It’s a description of a developmental level or age.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Just like you wouldn’t call an acorn an oak tree, a human zygote, blastocyst, or embryo is developmentally different than a baby. They’re all human, but they’re at different stages of growth.

Why call humans “infants, toddlers, preschoolers, teenagers, adults, or seniors?” It’s a description of a developmental level or age.

The problem here is that this “difference” is a semantic one that is used to devalue, unnecessarily, the life of the blastocyst or embryo as if it were of less value than a baby, when, in fact, it doesn’t.

If one last acorn remained on Earth, it would BE the last oak tree even in its potential form because it will become more than the last oak tree if treated properly. In fact, that acorn has within it the possibility of becoming all subsequent generations of oak trees if handled with due care. It is formally an “oak tree” because an oak tree cannot come about from any other form. It is the form a particular oak tree has at that stage of its existence. The entire life cycle is what constitutes that particular oak tree. It is nominally the “last” oak tree in acorn form.

Likewise, zygotes, blastocysts and embryos are all human beings in form and will become “infants, toddlers, preschoolers, teenagers, etc.” in time. At whatever point in time these are killed, that action kills the possibility of the infant, toddler, preschooler, etc., from ever being realized. It is killing all subsequent stages by terminating that human life at the prior stage.

That zygote, like the acorn, has within it the possibility of generations upon generations of new human beings.

It is a distinction without a difference.

 

[MJJean]

If you do proceed with IVF, and there are excess embryos that you are incapable of carrying - if that is our starting point - adoption may be the “best” available option. I don’t know whether processes for such ‘transactions’ even exist though. Thinking laterally, their is surrogacy, where another person carries the child for you. I hasten to add that I have no knowledge of the morality or legality of that - though I suspect someone will.

Surrogacy laws vary widely from state to state, so I can’t comment on what could happen if the OP tried a surrogate mother to carry her embryos for her. In some states, the surrogate has very little legal right to the baby. In others the surrogate has almost total legal rights and must legally give the child up for adoption to it’s biological parent(s) and could decide to keep the baby resulting in years of court battles.

As far as adopting out embryos, yes, it is done.

For example, I had a friend years ago who was born without eggs. Her uterus is fine, but she cannot conceive a baby of her own and if she wants to become pregnant and give birth she will have to seek out an egg donor and undergo IVF or adopt embryos. I have also known a man who did not produce sperm. If his wife wishes to become pregnant and give birth, they will have to seek out sperm donors or adopt embryos to be implanted. Of course, there is also the possibility of an infertile single woman of good character who is affluent enough to support herself and a baby that might be interested in adopting an embryo or two.

If the OP is going to go through with this anyway and ends up being unable to carry her embryos due to hysterectomy, then I think giving them to an infertile couple is a kind and loving choice for both the embryo and the childless couple.

I was raised without my biological father. I knew two things all through my formative years. 1) my mother passionately wanted me and 2) my father (the man who raised me) chose to raise me and love me with no genetic link required. I met my bio father. I felt nothing for him. It was my daddy who kicked my butt when I needed it, taught me to ride a bike, bandaged up my skinned knees, evicted monsters under the bed and in the closet, scared away boys with bad intentions, took me to buy my first formal dress, taught me how to cook and clean, how to change a tire, and even how to disable an attacker. A lot more than shared genetic code goes into being a real parent.

Embryos that get implanted may be raised without their bio parents, but they will know that the parents who raised them wanted them enough to go to extreme measures to have them, loved them, raised them, and taught them what they need to know to become decent adult humans. That counts for more than some people will ever understand.

If the OP were to adopt out “extra embryos” and personally chose the couples those embryos went to she can explain to them that she had to have a hysterectomy due to cancer. So, the future children can know they were loved and wanted by not only their bio parents (who were unable to have them) but also by their adoptive parents.

 

[CarolNoel]

No one is presenting themselves as infallible. They are presenting
the Church’s teachings as infallible. And just like was
earlier stated if you reject that you do it alone
because God will not force you to remain.

If I came on the forum and said hey after much
prayer I decided to abort because I really don’t
want kids and then complained about people
reminding me its a sin? You would probably
think I was a troll. Then if I announced that I was
publicly announcing my intention to abort on a catholic
forum and inside my own church because of
my humility? Lmao haha. No way!

I also suffered from infertility the first eight years
of my marriage. We stopped at using a mild
hormone stimulator known as Clomid. We did
that as there is way more grace and dignity in
being barren then there is in being a machine
with extra embryos being aborted etc. We had
already experienced two miscarriages and one
stillbirth.

We also could not adopt as our finances then
would not have passed muster.

For some reason a year after we gave up and
embraced our childless lifestyle I became pregnant.
We were then told (erroneously) that I had lupus
and other issues that would result in my death
and the child’s death snd were counseled to abort.
that was not an option. I had a healthy baby boy
and no problems except he was four weeks early.

I was told I should have my tubes tied because
although I was lucky this time a future pregnancy
would kill me. Failing that be celibate. Fortunately
my husband left the decision to me. I had a little girl
born at term but through a c section as I had a
stroke during labor.

After that I thanked God for one of each which was
actually one more than I had ever thought to have.

I didn’t get pregnant again which was probably
a good thing as I was now forty years old.

Point is it is NOT entirely in your hands or
the doctor’s hands- God still does obviously
have a day in these things. I used to make
the joke He created me so He could poke
fun at doctors.

There is no shame in infertility, loss of children
or barrenness. A person can live a beautifully
holy and dignified life with all three.
But once you depart from the Church’s teachings?
The dignity is gone, you get what you want
maybe but definately NOT what is best in the
long run.

Inspiring story. Thanks for sharing and God Bless you and your family.

 

[Mayita30]

Because once they’re implanted, that’s what they are- a human embryo.

Technically they’re a human blastocyst at the stage of development of transfer, but that’s just splicing hairs.

After 8 weeks of gestation they are a human fetus.

After 40 weeks of an uncomplicated pregnancy, it is a human newborn.

Just like you wouldn’t call an acorn an oak tree, a human zygote, blastocyst, or embryo is developmentally different than a baby. They’re all human, but they’re at different stages of growth.

Why call humans “infants, toddlers, preschoolers, teenagers, adults, or seniors?” It’s a description of a developmental level or age.

This kind of reasoning is what pro-abortionist use. IT IS NOT A BABY ! It is just a mass of cells… call it whatever name you want. It is still a LIFE !!

Dear Op, I know that this is a great trial for you and I wish you luck in having kids. I also want to remind you that you are not the only one with trials. I myself have my have my own. I am undergoing an annulment but I am not announcing it to the whole world. I just keep quiet about it. I too want to find someone to love and HAVE KIDS but I choose to wait and follow the Church’s rule. I choose to wait for an annulment before going into another relationship and I just pray that God will one day bless me with a good husband and kids.

OP, you are not the only one struggling with this. My mom gave birth to me after 8
yrs of trying. I also have a friend who was married for 10 years , she never became pregnant so she decided to adopt a baby girl . Guess what happened next. One year after adopting her baby girl , she became pregnant naturally at 43 years old and today she has 2 beautiful baby girls.

I suggest you keep your struggles to yourself. It is between you and God. Not all people will be sincere in giving you advices . May God bless you and I pray that you wil be granted strength in this journey.

 

[on_the_hill]

This kind of reasoning is what pro-abortionist use. IT IS NOT A BABY ! It is just a mass of cells… call it whatever name you want. It is still a LIFE !!

Right, it’s still a human life. No one is debating that, and we shouldn’t avoid using the word fetus, blastocyst, whatever, just because the “other side” might use it to its advantage. It’s just a matter of what to call it. Nothing wrong with human embryo, human zygote.

My brother and SIL went through the adoption process. I never asked any details as to whether or not they considered alternatives such as IVF, so I don’t know what all went into their decision.

I guess I wonder what would happen if a single human egg were fertilized by human sperm, and that single egg implanted in the uterus of the woman from whence the egg came. Would that be Catholically o.k.?

Is the objection that more than one egg is fertilized, and the extras are likely to be killed either in the lab or after implantation if too many begin to grow and develop?

 

[hsmomforlife]

NFP? Uh huh…We tried that with our first three children. Don’t get me wrong, I love them dearly and wouldn’t wish it any other way but all of them were conceived during “infertile” periods. We were practically tearing each others hair out reviewing everything for mistakes but there were none. I have become skeptical at very best of NFP and “infertile” times.

My wife is actually Orthodox, but far more liberal and “progressive” minded than myself.

And it is not a sin? Hrm, I remember being berated by a Catholic priest (relative of hers) for not giving into her “demands” often enough .

That’s right, I’m exercising my will to not leave my children without a mother. How dare I.

Wow, I know that if I knew that getting pregnant could kill me…I really wouldn’t want to pursue the very act that could get me pregnant and leave my children without their mother and leave my husband to raise my three kids alone. That would be a SERIOUS mood killer for me…

 

[bstorm]

Right, it’s still a human life. No one is debating that, and we shouldn’t avoid using the word fetus, blastocyst, whatever, just because the “other side” might use it to its advantage. It’s just a matter of what to call it. Nothing wrong with human embryo, human zygote.

My brother and SIL went through the adoption process. I never asked any details as to whether or not they considered alternatives such as IVF, so I don’t know what all went into their decision.

I guess I wonder what would happen if a single human egg were fertilized by human sperm, and that single egg implanted in the uterus of the woman from whence the egg came. Would that be Catholically o.k.?

Is the objection that more than one egg is fertilized, and the extras are likely to be killed either in the lab or after implantation if too many begin to grow and develop?

The objection is that the new life is created out of the context of the marital union.

In today’s society people want to have everything and they want it now. IVF, IUI, contraception - all those things reduce children to some material good that can be had or not depending on what I want or do not want at the moment. They are fundamentally wrong and selfish.

Life is hard and everyone has some kind of suffering to deal with. Infertility is a great suffering and the temptation to do the wrong thing is great, especially since the rest of the society does not see anything wrong with ART and actually presents it as a good solution. Infertility, fertility, means only business in this society. Being Catholic and following the teachings of the Church is hard. As I am reading all of this discussion these are the words of Gospel that keep coming to me:

“Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel will save it. What profit is there for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life?
What could one give in exchange for his life?" (Mark 8, 34-37)

“Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your selves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.” (Matthew 11, 28-30)

 

[Viewer]

“Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and that of the gospel will save it. What profit is there for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life?
What could one give in exchange for his life?" (Mark 8, 34-37)

“Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your selves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.” (Matthew 11, 28-30)

But there is a clear distinction in self denial, and not all of it is good.

When someone decides to give up drinking to help fund their childrens college fund, this is a form of self sacrifice for a greater good.

When someone decides to beat themselves with a whip for fun, this is not carrying a cross, but something far more disturbing.

It is one thing to endure ones lot, but it is another to deliberately seek out and willingly inflict it upon oneself. Not trying to better your lot is inflicting it upon yourself by wallowing in self pity.

 

[on_the_hill]

Not trying to better your lot is inflicting it upon yourself by wallowing in self pity.

Or, as my dad’s doctor once told him, “Stop martyring yourself.”

 

[Viewer]

Or, as my dad’s doctor once told him, “Stop martyring yourself.”

Bingo

 

[on_the_hill]

The objection is that the new life is created out of the context of the marital union.

O.k., I can see that part of it. However, their marital embrace is uniative, their intent is ordered toward procreation. They are not violating either of those principles.

• all those things reduce children to some material good that can be had or not depending on what I want or do not want at the moment.

I doubt wholeheartedly that a couple going through IVF views their children as any more of a material good than a couple going through adoption or a couple conceiving on their own. I have yet to meet a person who says, “I didn’t want children. I had children because it’s what God wants.” Can you imagine growing up with parents who didn’t want you? Of course, *I *wanted children. My wife wanted children.

Granted, there are people who have children for selfish reasons.