If that were true, everyone would believe in the Real Presence and the Holy Sacrifice. They may recognize the words maybe but that’s about it. As far as readings go, most can’t remember the readings five minutes after they’re given, unfortunately. Personally, I found one of the readings really difficult to follow one day last week. Too many proper names. I definitely needed a missal.
Sorry bro, I don’t live in the US, I live in Canada. And all government documents are in English and French. And in areas known for high concentration of other immigrants, there is also to provide at least basic instruction in different native languages as well, which includes Chinese, Hindi and Arabic, more if needed.
Perhaps. But I have a step brother who happens to be a court translator. (English/Polish/Spanish). He slips in his translations, the guy gets 5 years. And who gives perfect translations? Plain and simple, courts and jurors just don’t like to deal with translators.
Not necessarily. One can understand what is being said without believing it. The position of the Church on the Real Presence and is really quite clear. Even every Protestant I knew understood what the Catholic Church teaches on this.
Robert Actually the reverse seems true. Prior to Vatican II dioceses were growing not shrinking and vocations right along with them. Some say the decline is not related. But IMO there should be an equal opportunity for the EF and then we’ll see if is is related or not. Like it or not far too many Bishops are dragging their feet for whatever reason.
Luckily, the Mass won’t be on-the-spot translated like what happens in courts. Like I said, here in Canada all legal documents are in two language, plus further efforts to translate into more language to accomodate majority of new immigrants. These are carefully done, and we know the same is done with the Liturgy.Perhaps. But I have a step brother who happens to be a court translator. (English/Polish/Spanish). He slips in his translations, the guy gets 5 years. And who gives perfect translations? Plain and simple, courts and jurors just don’t like to deal with translators.
Sorry, I didn’t realize you were in Canada. I should make a habit of realizing my audience could be anywhere in the world.
We can’t blame solely everything on Vatican II. I don’t have the stats, but can we conclusively say Vatican II is to blame for the decline? Or was Vatican II a response to an imminent decline? I’m more inclined to believe the latter. The world is so much different today than it was 50, 60, 70 years ago. There’s so much pressure for people to leave Catholicism. From the agressive evangelization of Evangelicals, Pentecostals and non-Denoms, to the rise of modern ideas with leads more into atheism, to the variable sense of morality which leads people to reject the Church for the purpose of following their own needs and wants. Today many leave the faith not because of the form of Mass, but because they feel an all-male clergy is anti-women, because they were divorced and want to re-marry, or because they have same-sex partners whom they can marry in another church. What has those got to do with Vatican II? Nothing.
Robert IMO- half the problems associated with the afforementioned tension come from that pervasive attitude of who is or isnt the " Better Catholic. " I have been a Catholic my entire life and since i was born in 1956 - that is for quite some time. In all that time - I have come to understand that how good a Catholic you are is between GOD and you. Just as acts of kindness can be witnessed so can acts of bad example. And if opinion is formulated only on those things witnessed and the truth is actually different the llimitations of Man are then evident. Scripture says Judge not lest ye be judged for a reason. But GOD Judges us not only on Deeds but on hidden Thoughts and hidden Words as well , according to an infinitely just criteria. Therefore , none of us really knows how good a Catholic the other person is. Now the Church can canonize a Saint and thus give us an example to follow - but that is the Churches perrogative not ours as laity. Therefore - when the Church gives us theological points in Doctrine to learn or philosophical points of View or a Saints life to emulate - it is always with the greatest of good in mind the salvation of souls. . Therefore , no one should ever be offended if a person is speaking about things they disagree with are doing so with this same intention. At the end of the day , the Truth stands on its own merit. the fruits are what they are. And a man must come to the realization that he is flawed and must rely on coorperating with the Grace GOD sends and to do that which GOD guides and directs him to do. If all Catholics offer a Morning offering / Noon and evening prayers and pray the Holy Rosary daily , Practise love of GOD and Neighbor in all things - do penances of suffering and offering sacrifices and fastings avoid temptations and partake of the Sacraments then they are a good Catholic. And each Catholic who examines their conscience at the very least daily applying all of his thoughts words and deeds to that criteria - and finding little to report as bad is a good Catholic. Sorry , But I always cringe when I hear a Catholic say “That person is a good Catholic” Maybe they give good example or maybe you admire what they stand for but the sooner we get away from judging our neighbor even in what consider " a good way " - the sooner the tensions between the factions will cease. There is no shortcut to being a good Catholic. If properly catechised - we all should know what it takes. Let us pray that tolerance prevail and that the Seven gifts of the Holy Spirit be our Guide to what is GOD’S Will in this matter.
I’m not disagreeing. But this was true before the Latin was suppressed too, even if everyone wasn’t a Latin scholar back then. Sometimes we understand things in different ways. Mathematical truths of π and base e, for example. Saying that you understand something and to what degree is really a personal judgement.
Robert: I call your attention to what I actually said. I quote: " Some say the decline is not related. But IMO there should be an equal opportunity for the EF and then we’ll see if is is related or not." Therefore I didnt take a position one way or the other. Certainly the timing of the decline is dubious. It would seem that you agree that a decline has taken place. Mass attendance in Europe is a small fraction of what it once was. Where I live in the Midwest we see diocese after diocese consolidating and or closing. When the POPE decided to allow the EF globally - one cannot assume that he had this in mind as perhaps one of several responses to that decline. Since the Bishops have been slow to act and since the EF has been limited - how then are we to know if it will in fact have a measureable affect on stemming that decline? That would be my point.
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We can see how painfully the Church had to do that with the English alone, which in my opinion is a very butchered and rapidly deteriorating language. I just heard a term on the radio, “legally drunk.” Do you know how misinterpreted that could be if I translated it literally into another language? One would think it’s legal to get drunk and could set his own set of laws with such translations, even if I could claim they were “carefully” done.
I know there’s a decline because I know a lot of former Catholics who are now Protestants. I do not think the EF could have helped keep them in the faith one way or another. Nor do I believe the EF can change anything about people who believes in divorce and remarriage, artificial contraception, abortion, same-sex marriage, embryonic stem cell research, etc. Many leave the faith because the Church has a firm position on morality that they do not agree on, not because of the format of Mass. I know traditionalists are very particular about the form of Mass, but in my experience most people are just not that concerned about it as much as traditionalists are. For them, a Mass is a Mass, there is no difference. I can’t say this is true for all but just in my experience with other people.
Its not like everyone can understand Latin outright. They have to translate it by themselves into something they can understand. Would you rather have people rely on Church approved translations or personal translations?
Well I completely disagree with everything you just said. First and foremost - embracing immorality has everything to do with falling away from the Faith. When was the last time you heard a Hellfire and Brimstone Sermon from a OF Pulpit? The simple fact is - discipline is practised and learned and morality must be taught and reinforced from the Pulpit. I see a total lack of discipline in the OF which is one of the reasons I avoid it. To me it has everything to do with why people fall away. If a person isnt disciplined in religion then they are not disciplined in life IMO. Pretty soon , its all about what THEY believe or what THEY want and less about the gravity of sin and what GOD wants. People who believe in divorce and remarriage, artificial contraception, abortion, same-sex marriage, embryonic stem cell research, Women Priests and all the other things these people demand are not doing so to please Almighty GOD - they are doing what they do to please themselves. If we allow them to show that same example to our Youth growing up right now and we consent to those same Sins we are no better as Catholics.
And a very good point it is. However, it seems that the majority of our Bishops & many of our posters here…are unwilling to give it that equal opportunity. I’d say that our hierarchy is very afraid of the TLM.
Robert: I totally agree. I dont know why either. The Pope isnt. Maybe they should follow.
Not necessary. We’re not talking major documents, we’re talking simple prayers. When you “learned” the Our Father in its cadences and syllables, did you understand it the same way you do today? Of course not. I memorized the Latin Credo when I was still in grade school, though I took no Latin classes till I was in high school. The understanding become automatic and fluourished because I was exposed to it all the time. Maybe it’s the way they teach it these days, but I don’t see much better understanding of the Mass today than 50 years ago. I just don’t agree with the “since it’s in my language, I can now understand it” stuff anymore than if I were to tell you π was approximately 3.141593 and now you completely understand exactly what π was. You may THINK you understand it but you wouldn’t have a clue as to what it represents.
