Dealing with family who doesn't care for their kids

[KellyPalmer]

I don’t think it would be right to call CPS without first making any attempt to help. Although helping might be uncomfortable and have some negative consequences for you and your husband, that’s hardly a reason to blindside close family members by passing the buck to an overburdened system with severe problems of their own. If the family will not listen to reason, accept your help and work toward change, then by all means call CPS. But so far you’ve done nothing. We know they can change when they feel the seriousness of the issue as evidenced by their care of oldest.

 

[Xantippe]

“At which point I could forsee MIL and FIL starting a “witch-hunt” and asking people in the family point-blank if they were the ones who called. In which case, if me or my husband were asked directly if we made the call, obviously we could not lie as that would be a sin, and not giving an answer would make it obvious it was us. Last time CPS was called on them, the MIL and FIL were trying to figure out who it was. THe previous allegations were “unsafe living conditions” and the FIL was just like “Who are they to determine what’s safe and what’s not!” and defending Mr. and Mrs. X.”

That’s very unfortunate. If anything, though, it makes it more urgent to bring in CPS, since the family itself is capable of positive changes.

Get your husband on board and move forward in total agreement. “Family unity” is for the benefit of family members. It’s not an end in itself.

 

[Xantippe]

“But so far you’ve done nothing. We know they can change when they feel the seriousness of the issue as evidenced by their care of oldest.”

Their oldest is 7 and is presumably in the school system. That probably makes a difference–the parents’ knowing that the school is paying attention and noting signs of neglect. And bear in mind that by 7 years old, many kids are capable of a lot of personal care on their own (my 7 year old boy does his personal care with minimal reminders, keeps his room immaculate, puts away clean laundry and carries dirty laundry to the washer and fixes snacks and lunches for school). It may be that the 7-year-old has taken charge of herself and that the parents aren’t responsible for the positive changes the OP has seen in her.

Now that I think of it, training the big kids to take care of themselves and take charge at home may be a good move.

However, CPS does need to be involved. It may be an overburdened system, but if it isn’t there to help kids who are being left in nasty diapers, who is it for? For one thing, from the OP’s description, the family is probably incapable of managing the delousing on their own, which is a huge undertaking even for a well-functioning family with fewer kids. The lice alone would be a reason to contact CPS, because as long as the family has lice circulating, it’s going to be impractical for the extended family to help them.

 

[KellyPalmer]

“But so far you’ve done nothing. We know they can change when they feel the seriousness of the issue as evidenced by their care of oldest.”

Their oldest is 7 and is presumably in the school system. That probably makes a difference–the parents’ knowing that the school is paying attention and noting signs of neglect. And bear in mind that by 7 years old, many kids are capable of a lot of personal care on their own (my 7 year old boy does his personal care with minimal reminders, keeps his room immaculate, puts away clean laundry and carries dirty laundry to the washer and fixes snacks and lunches for school). It may be that the 7-year-old has taken charge of herself and that the parents aren’t responsible for the positive changes the OP has seen in her.

Now that I think of it, training the big kids to take care of themselves and take charge at home may be a good move.

However, CPS does need to be involved. It may be an overburdened system, but if it isn’t there to help kids who are being left in nasty diapers, who is it for? For one thing, from the OP’s description, the family is probably incapable of managing the delousing on their own, which is a huge undertaking even for a well-functioning family with fewer kids. The lice alone would be a reason to contact CPS, because as long as the family has lice circulating, it’s going to be impractical for the extended family to help them.

She specifically stated that the mother began taking care of the oldest after she was warned of the consequences. Additionally, no one has suggested turning a blind eye while kids sit in dirty diapers. CPS is not only over burdened but also with severe problems. I personally believe that as children of God, we shouldn’t shirk our responsibilities to our brothers and sisters in Christ simply b/c it’s not always easy and nice. I don’t like living in a society where families rarely help each other but rather rely on government which is overrun with corruption. It shouldn’t be a first resort when we see children in our families being neglected. We should try something, anything first. If such attempts fail, yes contact such agencies.

 

[KellyPalmer]

Wow. I can’t believe anyone would suggest that lice is a reason to contact CPS. Or that lice is a reason not to help someone. Really? You do realize that most people deal with lice at some point in their lives, right? You can help someone with lice over the phone. You can help them get it cleared up. You can help them beyond that. Are CPS reps immune from lice? Why can they help but not us?

 

[Xantippe]

“Wow. I can’t believe anyone would suggest that lice is a reason to contact CPS. Or that lice is a reason not to help someone. Really? You do realize that most people deal with lice at some point in their lives, right? You can help someone with lice over the phone. You can help them get it cleared up. You can help them beyond that. Are CPS reps immune from lice? Why can they help but not us?”

The problem is that to do a complete delousing, each of the 5 children’s hair (and probably the parents’, too) needs to be gone through thoroughly with a nit comb at least several times, there needs to be chemical treatment to kill the live lice, and all of the bedding in the house needs to be washed in HOT water. This is a big deal. A mother who can’t keep dry diapers on her babies and finds occasional baths for the kids a big deal is not going to be up to this job (and particularly not with just phone consultations). Furthermore, if the extended family helps with this project, they would need buy-in from the family. The extended family would need to visit and basically take over for hours at a time to beat the lice. There’s no point in kinda sorta doing lice treatments. It has to be complete eradication to prevent recurrence. It’s certainly worth asking the parents for permission to start the process, but if the parents won’t allow the extended family to interfere to this degree, yes, it is necessary to call CPS. Having untreated lice will turn these children into pariahs. And no, as a head lice survivor myself (I got it from my sister who got it from her best friend, etc.), I would not socialize with a family with untreated lice or that was in the middle of the eradication process.

 

[Xantippe]

Note that the OP says, “Whenever help (in various aspects) has been offered, it has been turned down.” That’s why it may need to be CPS.

 

[KellyPalmer]

“Wow. I can’t believe anyone would suggest that lice is a reason to contact CPS. Or that lice is a reason not to help someone. Really? You do realize that most people deal with lice at some point in their lives, right? You can help someone with lice over the phone. You can help them get it cleared up. You can help them beyond that. Are CPS reps immune from lice? Why can they help but not us?”

The problem is that to do a complete delousing, each of the 5 children’s hair (and probably the parents’, too) needs to be gone through thoroughly with a nit comb at least several times, there needs to be chemical treatment to kill the live lice, and all of the bedding in the house needs to be washed in HOT water. This is a big deal. A mother who can’t keep dry diapers on her babies and finds occasional baths for the kids a big deal is not going to be up to this job (and particularly not with just phone consultations). Furthermore, if the extended family helps with this project, they would need buy-in from the family. The extended family would need to visit and basically take over for hours at a time to beat the lice. There’s no point in kinda sorta doing lice treatments. It has to be complete eradication to prevent recurrence. It’s certainly worth asking the parents for permission to start the process, but if the parents won’t allow the extended family to interfere to this degree, yes, it is necessary to call CPS. Having untreated lice will turn these children into pariahs. And no, as a head lice survivor myself (I got it from my sister who got it from her best friend, etc.), I would not socialize with a family with untreated lice or that was in the middle of the eradication process.

How many millions (at the very least) of times has lice spread through a house of families with 5+ kids? How many times has CPS had to be called in for such a thing? I mean, what an abuse of the system! I’m not saying it’s a cake walk but the idea that CPS needs to be called in because of lice is absolutely ridiculous. It happens to families every single day. Yes, everyone needs to be treated and it’s going to be work. CPS reps are not immune from lice so why should family shirk their responsibility to help each other just because they’d rather someone else get lice than themselves? And again, one need not be in physical contact with another person in order to help them so it’s basically a moot point regardless. It’s not that the mother “can’t” keep her kids in clean diapers, it’s that she doesn’t want to at the present. That can change with help.

 

[KellyPalmer]

Note that the OP says, “Whenever help (in various aspects) has been offered, it has been turned down.” That’s why it may need to be CPS.

“Help” is a broad term. I assume she meant donations type of help based on the context. When I use the term help, I’m talking about helping them take proper care of their children which would include setting those terms, giving them tools/ideas on how to do so and letting them know what the consequences of not doing so will be. I mean, here we have a woman literally plotting to have her close family member’s children taken away without even so much as once talking to her about the problems she believes this family has. By her own account, these parents are happy and believe that their situation is a good one. Why would you not try to talk to your own close family about this before deciding where her children will be placed within the family as you ponder calling CPS on them?

Additionally, she has stated that CPS has already been called and nothing was done. So in the same sense, CPS has been offered and turned down already as well.

We already know with certainty that all “help” has not been turned down by this family as the OP stated, "MIL had a talk with Mrs.X about keeping the 7 year old clean at school so she wasn’t teased or picked on at school. Since then, Mrs.X has done a decent job of keeping the 7 year old “clean” (cleaner anyway). So, we know Mrs. X CAN do it- but apparently she only thinks so has to because of school."

^Helping worked.

Also, keep in mind that there are two (at least) different situations going on here. Here is another quote from the OP, "Others in the family wish someone would say something but no one wants to be the one to do it. In the past the family has talked to them about being irresponsible, especially in regards to money, but never about the parenting which is honestly by biggest concern."

The family has attempted to help them on matters of money but no one wants to step up and help by talking to them about their parenting. I’m saying do so instead of passing the buck to a system with major flaws. Family should help family whenever possible, not just when it’s easy or convenient.

 

[masondoggy]

How many millions (at the very least) of times has lice spread through a house of families with 5+ kids? How many times has CPS had to be called in for such a thing? I mean, what an abuse of the system! I’m not saying it’s a cake walk but the idea that CPS needs to be called in because of lice is absolutely ridiculous. It happens to families every single day. Yes, everyone needs to be treated and it’s going to be work. CPS reps are not immune from lice so why should family shirk their responsibility to help each other just because they’d rather someone else get lice than themselves? And again, one need not be in physical contact with another person in order to help them so it’s basically a moot point regardless. It’s not that the mother “can’t” keep her kids in clean diapers, it’s that she doesn’t want to at the present. That can change with help.

There’s a HUGE difference between a family that gets lice and takes the steps to handle the problem and a family that gets lice and the parents are too lazy and ignorant to give a darn and even try to handle the problem. The latter family, YES, does warrant a call to CPS. No child should have to live with lice on their head because mom’s too lazy to treat it. That is parental neglect pure and simple.

Yes, it may help a situation like this if the whole family stuck together and put pressure on these parents to shape up and give them the assistance necessary to do it but the OP has made it pretty clear that this family is not going to do that. She is an in-law, it’s completely out of her hands to make this family do what they should. As far as I’m concerned, those kids need help and if their grandparents and aunts and uncles refuse to step in and get them out of the hellish situation they’re in, the OP has a moral obligation to do whatever she can to help them by getting CPS involved.

 

[Dasi4747]

I know everyone here wants what’s best for the children. I think everyone has valid points, which is what makes everything so difficult.

When I say “help” I mean that we have offered services and advice. Not donations. I’ve also given Mrs. X several parenting books to read.

I do agree that it could be selfishness holding me back- I do not want to have to deal with the lice situation. I had it as a child once (we got it from a friend who always had recurring lice and stopped telling us when she had it and passed it to us) and it was a nightmare. It’s not easy to remove lice. I know it took several treatments of the whole house over probably a course of several months.That is why I’m confident that Mr. and Mrs. X aren’t going to easily get rid of it. I agree that may be selfish and wrong. But if I’m having to deal with my own family’s lice then that takes away from the time I could spend helping them. I think physical, in person help is the only answer with Mrs. X. I think I would have to go over to her house (or her to mine) and physically show her what she should be doing. Having dealt with Mr. and Mrs. X for years, I want to point out that a simple phone call reminding them to do this or that is not going to make them actually do it. They will still make their own choices. Unless they are under extreme pressure, usually with you sitting right there, when they are alone in the their own home (even with someone on the other line of the phone) they just simply aren’t going to do it.

I will say that when I said previously no one has said anything about the parenting…I may have misspoken a little. When family is around their family, if we smell poopy diapers, we often remind them to change them. If their kid is screaming in the other room, people will tell them “hey, your kid is crying.” But thats basically it as far as the brothers and sisters. I also see this less and less as people in the family have basically just given up. No one has ever been so blunt as to come right out and say “Hey, you aren’t doing your job as parents” but enough comments and hints have been made that most regular people would take the hint. MIL is the most helpful. MIL has done quite a bit in guiding Mrs. X (like with the 7 year old in school) to help her. MIL has to walk Mrs. X through things like a baby. She has told me this. MIL says you can’t just tell Mrs. X to give her children a bath. You have to actually walk her through the steps of what to do. I have noticed this when I have helped her. Often her kids are over dressed and sweating. I will say something like “He feels hot” and she does nothing. Last time I said “He is hot. Maybe take off his pants…I did that with our baby because it’s hot in here.” I was shocked a few minutes later when she had actually done it. The same with diaper changes. If you say “I think they need a diaper change” nothing will happen. But if you are more forceful (“Go change their diaper. They are poopy” It’s more likely to yield a positive result. I think one of the problems is it that we don’t talk to other people this way normally. It seems condescending and so it’s hard for people to do it. To other people, it would seem rude to talk to someone like that. So people have to step out of their comfort zone.

I think the only reason Mrs.X listened to MIL about the 7 year old in school was because the child was able to express herself about being picked on. When they heard this directly from their child they wanted to do better. The problem is that the other children are too young to speak up for themselves (although regular people would pay attention to their body language etc as communication). The children are used to it and don’t know any other way of life, and can’t speak up.

I’m not sure how I feel about helping the older kids learn to care for themselves. It seems that just gives Mr and Mrs X an easy out and doesnt help the little ones. I already feel bad for the oldest. She has a lot of responsibility put on her already. She is basically the mother to the other children. THere are lots of stories where the 7 year old is put in charge and then punished when its too much for her. I’m all about children helping out in the family but what they expect of the 7 year old is more than they do themselves. So I’m hesitant to do show the older ones how to do things, because then they would probably be expected to help the younger ones, and when they don’t do it right would get in trouble.

I’m really torn between going directly to Mr and Mrs X and calling CPS. I think MIL would be upset about CPS and would think family should help directly first. But if we tried talking to them and offering help, I also see this problem: Mr. X has an anger and authority issue. I could see if we started talking, as soon as the topic was known, he would get angry and tune out to anything we tried to say and wouldn’t listen. And again…I don’t think they would be like “Oh sure, come on over to our house and show us how to raise our kids”. So I think calling CPS could potentially be more effective. Even though nothing happened the first time CPS was called, I think it’s because they thought it was a fluke. They thought it was so absurd anyone would call, that they assumed it was Mrs. X’s family who called, because Mrs. X’s mother will get angry and try to be vindictive. While it’s a possibility, I don’t think that’s what happened. Anyone would have been well within their rights to call CPS. Maybe if more and more complaints and calls are coming in, they would starting thinking “maybe we are doing something wrong if people keep calling”. I don’t know- I could be wrong. In fact, now that I think about it, I wonder if it was someone else in the family that called the first time and is keeping quiet about it.

I’m glad people are still sharing their opinions on the subject. It’s only helping me think harder about the pros and cons of each option. Thanks everyone!

 

[Xantippe]

“I do agree that it could be selfishness holding me back- I do not want to have to deal with the lice situation.”

If your family gets head lice, you’ll be doing nothing but getting rid of them for weeks. That doesn’t help anybody.

“I’m not sure how I feel about helping the older kids learn to care for themselves. It seems that just gives Mr and Mrs X an easy out and doesnt help the little ones. I already feel bad for the oldest. She has a lot of responsibility put on her already. She is basically the mother to the other children. THere are lots of stories where the 7 year old is put in charge and then punished when its too much for her.”

That’s very unfortunate. It may be OK, though, if you stick to age appropriate stuff, like teaching the big kids about good nutrition, basic meal preparation and hygiene. The 7-year-old may be very close to being able to give her mother pointers at the grocery store with regard to food purchases (I have a 7-year-old like that myself). You may want to be a little nosy about the food at their house and supply any obvious deficiencies, perhaps making a point of selling the big kids on particular exotic food products like fruits and vegetables. (I know you’re financially struggling, so this may be difficult for you.) From your vivid description of Mrs. X, I have a very easy time imagining her filling her grocery cart with Slim Jims and Little Debbies.

God bless you!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Does Mrs. X have a low IQ? Has she used drugs in the past, or does she still? Or drink a lot? I would lean toward the low IQ, from your description. Or perhaps simply terminally immature?

 

[KellyPalmer]

There’s a HUGE difference between a family that gets lice and takes the steps to handle the problem and a family that gets lice and the parents are too lazy and ignorant to give a darn and even try to handle the problem. The latter family, YES, does warrant a call to CPS. No child should have to live with lice on their head because mom’s too lazy to treat it. That is parental neglect pure and simple.

Yes, it may help a situation like this if the whole family stuck together and put pressure on these parents to shape up and give them the assistance necessary to do it but the OP has made it pretty clear that this family is not going to do that. She is an in-law, it’s completely out of her hands to make this family do what they should. As far as I’m concerned, those kids need help and if their grandparents and aunts and uncles refuse to step in and get them out of the hellish situation they’re in, the OP has a moral obligation to do whatever she can to help them by getting CPS involved.

There is a huge difference but somehow you have more information than has been provided in this thread. We have no idea what steps, if any, this family has taken towards ridding themselves of the lice. You’ve seen to have concluded your judgement on this family and convicted them even with the OP has not provided us with this information. You’ve made your decision about this family. I have not. Do they have issues that need worked on? Yes. But I don’t know the full story.

 

[KellyPalmer]

If your family gets head lice, you’ll be doing nothing but getting rid of them for weeks. That doesn’t help anybody.

Again, she doesn’t have to expose herself to the lice in order to help them. But if this is your angle, then why do you think it’s ok for the CPS workers and the CPS worker’s families to have to do nothing but get rid of their lice for weeks instead of the OP?

 

[KellyPalmer]

I know everyone here wants what’s best for the children. I think everyone has valid points, which is what makes everything so difficult.

When I say “help” I mean that we have offered services and advice. Not donations. I’ve also given Mrs. X several parenting books to read.

I do agree that it could be selfishness holding me back- I do not want to have to deal with the lice situation. I had it as a child once (we got it from a friend who always had recurring lice and stopped telling us when she had it and passed it to us) and it was a nightmare. It’s not easy to remove lice. I know it took several treatments of the whole house over probably a course of several months.That is why I’m confident that Mr. and Mrs. X aren’t going to easily get rid of it. I agree that may be selfish and wrong. But if I’m having to deal with my own family’s lice then that takes away from the time I could spend helping them. I think physical, in person help is the only answer with Mrs. X. I think I would have to go over to her house (or her to mine) and physically show her what she should be doing. Having dealt with Mr. and Mrs. X for years, I want to point out that a simple phone call reminding them to do this or that is not going to make them actually do it. They will still make their own choices. Unless they are under extreme pressure, usually with you sitting right there, when they are alone in the their own home (even with someone on the other line of the phone) they just simply aren’t going to do it.

I will say that when I said previously no one has said anything about the parenting…I may have misspoken a little. When family is around their family, if we smell poopy diapers, we often remind them to change them. If their kid is screaming in the other room, people will tell them “hey, your kid is crying.” But thats basically it as far as the brothers and sisters. I also see this less and less as people in the family have basically just given up. No one has ever been so blunt as to come right out and say “Hey, you aren’t doing your job as parents” but enough comments and hints have been made that most regular people would take the hint. MIL is the most helpful. MIL has done quite a bit in guiding Mrs. X (like with the 7 year old in school) to help her. MIL has to walk Mrs. X through things like a baby. She has told me this. MIL says you can’t just tell Mrs. X to give her children a bath. You have to actually walk her through the steps of what to do. I have noticed this when I have helped her. Often her kids are over dressed and sweating. I will say something like “He feels hot” and she does nothing. Last time I said “He is hot. Maybe take off his pants…I did that with our baby because it’s hot in here.” I was shocked a few minutes later when she had actually done it. The same with diaper changes. If you say “I think they need a diaper change” nothing will happen. But if you are more forceful (“Go change their diaper. They are poopy” It’s more likely to yield a positive result. I think one of the problems is it that we don’t talk to other people this way normally. It seems condescending and so it’s hard for people to do it. To other people, it would seem rude to talk to someone like that. So people have to step out of their comfort zone.

^had to snip b/c it was too long…

I would recommend taking it to prayer. I would probably talk to my Priest or a Nun to get counsel before taking such a huge step to call CPS on my own family without even talking to them first. I would encourage you to talk to them first but hey, I’m just one woman on the internet and I don’t have the whole story so take my advice for what it’s worth. I’m genuinely confused b/c there are some contradictions about what help has been offered and what they have been talked to about.

 

[Dasi4747]

She doesn’t use drugs or drink (to my knowledge). I would think she has low IQ. Her parents did not care for their children either. She is the smartest of her family, sadly. She did not experience good parenting and doesn’t have that to draw on. She recognizes her side of the family doesn’t care for their children (she complains of her sisters not taking care of their children) yet she fails to make the connection she does the same exact things with her own children.

It’s just a horrible vicious cycle…children are all different so it’s hard to say with any certainty, but her children also seem behind developmentally, or may have low IQ as well. It just doesn’t seem like anyone is “home” when you look at them. While some of it may be genetic, I think it’s a lot the environment they are raised in as well. There doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of one-on-one time and attention with the kids. If you sit down and actually give the children attention and play with them, they light up. They don’t seem to get enough physical attention either. I think they are so used to not being touched they are actually scared if you try and touch/hold them. I’m not talking about being shy (my son is shy- he will curl up into me when strangers are around) but not knowing how to react to touch. They have seemed terrified when I have tried to hold them and comfort them when they were crying (while I was babysitting) or change their diapers. My godchild has actually started saying “Ma Ma” around me several times when I would start giving her just any kind of attention. Other than that I don’t think I’ve heard her say really any coherent words (and she’s now 3).

How do you help someone with low IQ???

 

[Xantippe]

“We have no idea what steps, if any, this family has taken towards ridding themselves of the lice.”

I think (based on what the OP has described) that betting that the parents have dealt effectively with the lice infestation would be a real long shot. I’m not being judgy–that’s just what the probabilities are. These are not effective people.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

How do you help someone with low IQ???

You have already experienced some of it. You have to be explicit and direct. Like you are when you say “Go change Baby X’s diaper!” and not just “maybe the baby needs a diaper change.”

You have to show - “Here’s how I wash Suzie’s hair. It keeps the tangles out.” Then demonstrate on Girl X. Dig in your diaper bag and show the brand of ointment that you buy that works.

If she really has a low IQ (and your first descriptions of her sounded like that) than she has to be shown and taught the way you would break something down for a child. For example, when you are teaching children their chores you don’t just say, “sweep the floor”; you show them how to get in the corners, how to sweep in one direction, how to get the dirt in the dustpan.

Sounds like she needs the same type of help. A parenting book or a link to a website just isn’t going to be enough. She has probably never erad any of the books you gave her.

Seems like MIL is doing the best to help her so far. even if you do have to walk her through the steps. It may be uncorfortable for you for a brief time, but if it helps the kids to be better cared for it is worth it.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

For the lice, it may be worth it to go over there on the weekend when your husband is home with your kids.

Slather your own hair with conditioner and put it up in a shower cap and then a hat. Wear old clothes.

At their house, first start wash loads of bedding and then put all the extra bedding and soft toys in black trash bags that are tied shut. If the stay in the bags for a week or two, the nits will die.

Start bathing kids and washing their hair - you do one and Mrs X does one side by side so she can copy you. Then do the nit combing. Since most of the kids aren’t school age yet, she should also just cut their hair short. For the older girl, at least trim it to above her shoulders.

Hopefully once she’s gone through the treatments once with you, she’ll know how to do them and then you can just reminder her. I have had lice as an adult and I can assure you, if she gets them she will want them out of her house FAST!

Get Mr. X to vacuum the floors and couches while you two are washing kids. At least the house will be cleaner at the end of this!

Once you get home, take a shower and wash the clothes you wore over there right away.