Dealing with gays

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Before I say this let me say this… I have family members that are homosexual and lesbian, and by that I mean “actively” so. They are in fact good people. I’m sure they have sins. Who doesn’t. Nonetheless, I’ve met quite a few evil heterosexuals in my life. None of my family members that are homosexual or lesbian are evil people.

That said…
Obviously it’s going to be tough in this day and age to oppose gay marriage. However, one thing Catholics can do is to oppose homophobia. That’s right. You can still oppose homophobia while opposing homosexual acts. Remember, the Catechism teaches there is nothing wrong with being a homosexual. You just can’t practice homosexual acts. High schools these days are tough with all the bullies calling homosexuals “faggots” and “dykes.” This doesn’t just happen in high school either unfortunately. I think as Catholics, we should strive to fight homophobic bullying while maintaining an opposition towards homosexual marriage. Such an announcement from the Catholic Church would bring light to Catholic communities all over the US.

This is a little off-topic, but supporting gay marriage outside of the Catholic Church is NOT ok for Catholics to do, right? I mean it wouldn’t make sense since two homosexuals marrying is considered a homosexual act…
The Church and Popes (although I loved John Paul II) remind me more of American politicians than Jesus Christ.

For one thing, Jesus would say something that would tick off entire crowds and leave his disciples and Apostles dumbfounded.

On a side note: we discussed something similar to the Surgeon General’s “Call To Action” report in an STD class I take in school. I objected to the report as too much politics, philosophy (and poor philosophy at that), and social science rather than being just a hard (natural) science report.

The professor (Ph.D. in laboratory science) conceded that the Call To Action is largely political and that my accusations were correct.

Like the Catholic Church the Call To Action is extraordinarily concerned with the feelings of homosexuals and how the rest of society needs to assimilate them into society. All the while you hear little to nothing from them about drug addicts. The Call To Action in fact was totally silent on that point even though IV drug users make up a significant portion of HIV cases and other STD cases. More importantly, males that are both IV drug users and engage in male-on-male sex are even at greater odds of contracting HIV.

Yet… LOL the Call To Action waxes on about how we in society need to accept lesbians, bisexuals, transgender people to reduce the spread of STDs and HIV. It goes on the bemoan the fact homosexuals commit suicide.

Drug addicts and alcoholics commit suicide all the time. No one cares. They acquire STDs all the time. Again, no one (or few at least) care.

From a raw natural science stand point attempting to reduce the spread of STDs and HIV I asked why the Call To Action was intentionally silent on this population, whilst simultaneously condemning abortion and staunchly supporting abortion (a philosophical contradiction, not a tautology)? My question was rhetorical. I already knew the answer. Drug addicts don’t have lobbyists and political clout.

As my professor noted the Surgeon General’s office–such as with the issue of abortion–was and does try to appeal to two opposing sides so they can reach a middle ground to work together. So, that office is trying to appeal to the Catholic Church and liberal feminists and gay advocates all at the same time.

I said all that to say this:

I have a couple questions. Is it morally fine to be a pedophile so long as you don’t have sex with kids? Is it okay to be sexually aroused by the thoughts of chopping people up and eating them so long as you never do it?

How can Jesus statements be right that a man is guilty in his heart of adultery if he lusts after a married woman even if he does not have any sexual contact with her?

I live in a world of politics (e.g., Hilary Clinton opposed to blaspheming the Virgin Mary but publicly supports publicly funded art exhibitions hosting such blaspheme due to the sacredness of U.S. politics and duality) and I get tired of hearing it. The sales pitches keep coming.

I want to hear reality. What’s really going on. What’s true at it’s roots.

I’m not a politician. Hilary Clinton and the Pope are going to tell you something totally different about homosexuality or about a woman demanding to engage violent men in violent hand-to-hand combat than I will tell you. Because I’m going to get down to the roots and reality of the possibility of getting your teeth knocked out your mouth. Of having to put your dentures on before you go on a date. But then I’ve been punched around by some big men. One of them being my ex-con uncle who can be damn near Satanic. Mainly when he’s high on crack. But his violence is real, not show boating, and direct. It’s not a violence appropriate for day time television. No television.

HIV I suspect is as real and unPC in its violence too. It cares nothing about politics. You can send all the lobbyists to Washington you want. Scream it expresses itself in too real of terms you’re willing to accept.

So, I really don’t buy into this political rhetoric that it’s okay to be gay as long as you don’t play. If it is then maybe it’s okay for me to lust in my heart after a woman (though I have millions of times).
 
So, I really don’t buy into this political rhetoric that it’s okay to be gay as long as you don’t play. If it is then maybe it’s okay for me to lust in my heart after a woman (though I have millions of times).
A desire or a temptation is not the same morally as taking pleasure in the temptation.
 
A desire or a temptation is not the same morally as taking pleasure in the temptation.
If I was a pedophile–which I’m not thank God–what good is this kind of Catholicism to me? I might as well become Buddhist. Then again… some Buddhists just think homosexuality is a result of karma due to some aspect of your previous life. I think at least. I know the Buddhists of Thailand feel that way about transsexuals [1].

I think if we cut through the obfuscation heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality are the taking of pleasure in temptations. I really doubt any biologist or anthropologist would believe otherwise. Supposedly, our sex drive is what drives our whole reproductive success as a species. So, I’m having trouble understanding how one can be a homosexual or a heterosexual pedophile and not take pleasure (sexual arousal) within the objects that morphologically and phenotypically “turn them on”?

But I’ll leave the politicking to the Church leadership. On a positive note, I think politics is where Catholicism bests Evangelical Protestantism, with Rome’s sophisticated and well schooled diplomatic corps.

I’m not bashing homosexuals. I’m not bashing heterosexual pedophiles either. But they might ask themselves why it is they have the attractions they do. But I suppose that inquiry is sealed once its become dogmatic doctrine “that one is born that way.” Or what we call biological determinism or genetic determinism. Either way it is deterministic.

The body does have deterministic qualities to it. Chemical operations in and out of the cells of the body are deterministic. The physics behind the fluid movement through the veins and tubes of the body are deterministic. But I don’t buy into the conception that from that the thoughts produced in the brain are deterministic to the extent they can never be altered. This sounds like the claim in neuroscience that free will is an illusion.
  1. beautifulboxer.com/
 
If I was a pedophile–which I’m not thank God–what good is this kind of Catholicism to me? I might as well become Buddhist. Then again… some Buddhists just think homosexuality is a result of karma due to some aspect of your previous life. I think at least. I know the Buddhists of Thailand feel that way about transsexuals [1].

I think if we cut through the obfuscation heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality are the taking of pleasure in temptations. I really doubt any biologist or anthropologist would believe otherwise. Supposedly, our sex drive is what drives our whole reproductive success as a species. So, I’m having trouble understanding how one can be a homosexual or a heterosexual pedophile and not take pleasure (sexual arousal) within the objects that morphologically and phenotypically “turn them on”?

But I’ll leave the politicking to the Church leadership. On a positive note, I think politics is where Catholicism bests Evangelical Protestantism, with Rome’s sophisticated and well schooled diplomatic corps.

I’m not bashing homosexuals. I’m not bashing heterosexual pedophiles either. But they might ask themselves why it is they have the attractions they do. But I suppose that inquiry is sealed once its become dogmatic doctrine “that one is born that way.” Or what we call biological determinism or genetic determinism. Either way it is deterministic.

**The body does have deterministic qualities to it. Chemical operations in and out of the cells of the body are deterministic. The physics behind the fluid movement through the veins and tubes of the body are deterministic. But I don’t buy into the conception that from that the thoughts produced in the brain are deterministic to the extent they can never be altered. This sounds like the claim in neuroscience that free will is an illusion.
**
  1. beautifulboxer.com/
Certain temptations being much more likely in a given person than in other people doesn’t mean free will is an illusion, they still have the choice to act or not on those temptations.
 
Like I said, renounced his duty to God. His duty as a Catholic priest was to live and preach the Catholic faith. Rather than remain true to his faith and offer his troubles to God, as all Catholics are called to do, He chose to abandon his position and his faith in favor of a “church” that allowed him to indulged in his sexual urges. What about this does not say “abandoning his faith” to you?

You approach the Bible like a protestant. There is no “tearing apart” because it’s not up to the individual. God entrusted the Bible to the Church, to be interpreted by the clergy through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Belief in personal interpretation is the reason we have 40k protestant denominations floating about all claiming to know better than one another, all of which are operating without (or with lesser) guiding from the Holy Spirit.

Newsflash! Laypeople can study scripture and have as much access to resources for interpreting scripture as clergy. Just among women religious there are many more advanced degrees in theology than among bishops. And look at what the nuns are saying. Are they heretics?

See what light? Any light not derived from God is not a light you want to be seeing, let alone following. And what do you mean banned from being priests? O don’t know where you derived this misconception, but you are definitely mistaken. ** Sexually active** homosexuals cannot become priests, just like sexually active heterosexual cannot become priests. Similarly, a gay person who desires to become a priest but refuses to teach or live the Church’s moral standards in terms of homosexuality cannot become a priest. It’s not because they’re gay, it’s because they’re a heretic…
Perhaps you were not aware that psychological testing is done on all seminary applicants to discover homosexuality, or even more directly, would-be seminarians are asked if they are homosexual (or even if they think they might be.) All affirmatives are rejected.

The Church is protecting herself from future lawsuits, but in doing so she is falling prey to the fallacy that a homosexual identity = pedophilia.
 
That’s the reality that he couldn’t deny any longer. **He had to be true to himself **
Luke 9:23: "Then he said to them all: "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. "

(Bold mine in both cases)
 
The problem with this, and part of what the Church is fighting, is that it relegates the concept of marriage to… well… nothing. If all that is required is for two people to want to be in a marriage, for either tax or sexual reasons, what logical reason do you have to prevent me from, say, marrying my brother so we can get a tax break?

One you remove the necessary aspect of marriage, being the procreation and raising of children, there is no logical point at which you can say “no, that’s enough”

What about three people who want to get married? Why is their love any less than the gays? What about four? five? What about a group marriage (swingers), what about a man and a young girl? After all, their love is love to (according to them, and who are you to say otherwise, since there’s no longer a valid definition of appropriate love).

No, that may sound idyllic, but it does not hold up under scrutiny or logic. Once you remove procreation from marriage, there is no longer a point at which you can rightfully claim, “no, that’s wrong; that’s not marriage.”

In addition, all those benefits these people are (incorrectly) claiming they have a right to, were instituted to ensure that a parent would be able to continue raising their child should the other parent die. Since gays cannot have children, they have no right to those benefits. And don’t even get started on gays adopting, which is an abomination against the child, who does have a right to a mother and a father. To demand the right to adopt is a selfish demand, denying the child what is rightfully theirs.

One last little thing, you talk about unalienable rights. If you look in the Constitution, Marriage is not one of these rights, period. That is because the founding fathers understood that marriage is not something as petty and unimportant as a right. It is a duty, it is an obligation, and it is the foundation of a proper society.
Civil government has a vested interest and responsibility in protecting its citizens. I think a good case can be made that there is a probability of harm in the case of children “marrying.”

Many marriages do not have the possibility for procreation, so that cannot be said to be an a priori requirement for marriage.

The possibilities for children hoping for adoption include being raised in institutions or in unstable foster homes (unstable because foster children often must move from one to another after relatively short times). Is it your contention that these possible fates are preferable to living in a single-family, stable environment with parents who want to share their lives and resources with these children forever?

It is not the case in our culture, but elsewhere even in the 21st century, it is considered great charity for a man to take multiple wives, women who might otherwise be homeless and have no benefactor in patriarchal cultures.

At least from a civil standpoint, laws are made to prohibit freedom only because there might be some harm. The harm of same sex marriage seems to exist only as a starting point for the slippery slope argument. In fact, each of those options might well be proposed, but lawmakers will have to rule on them using the rule of potential harm, and I expect that in some of those cases, it won’t be hard to show potential harm.
 
Certain temptations being much more likely in a given person than in other people doesn’t mean free will is an illusion, they still have the choice to act or not on those temptations.
Assuming you are a married man, do you call it a temptation to make love to your wife? Some religious people would claim it’s a religious duty!
The problem lies in the options that the Church lays out for people who find themselves attracted only to persons of the same sex. They may remain celibate or they may marry someone of the opposite sex to whom they are not physically attracted.
The church has always maintained that celibacy is a divinely-given gift, for the sake of the Kingdom, not to be commanded by mortals.
Marriage with a person to whom one is not attracted would seem to be doomed.
So is there really an option? If we want to use semantics, we could say that homosexuals should practice continence, but who would we be fooling?
Then we talk about chastity, but isn’t a sexual relationship within marriage considered chastity?
So the Church offers lifetime continence and the isolation that attends that, without the grace of celibacy, or it offers fornication.
That’s charity?
 
Perhaps you were not aware that psychological testing is done on all seminary applicants to discover homosexuality, or even more directly, would-be seminarians are asked if they are homosexual (or even if they think they might be.) All affirmatives are rejected.

The Church is protecting herself from future lawsuits, but in doing so she is falling prey to the fallacy that a homosexual identity = pedophilia.
That is not true. The Church has decided that a man with a deep-seated sexual attraction to other men is not a good candidate for priesthood. That has nothing to do with pedophilia. The Church needs strong, healthy men as priests. Homosexuality is a cross, not a sin. But it is disordered and adds a burden to a man’s abilty to live out the Gospel as a priest.
 
If I was a pedophile–which I’m not thank God–what good is this kind of Catholicism to me? I might as well become Buddhist. Then again… some Buddhists just think homosexuality is a result of karma due to some aspect of your previous life. I think at least. I know the Buddhists of Thailand feel that way about transsexuals [1].

I think if we cut through the obfuscation heterosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality are the taking of pleasure in temptations. I really doubt any biologist or anthropologist would believe otherwise. Supposedly, our sex drive is what drives our whole reproductive success as a species. So, I’m having trouble understanding how one can be a homosexual or a heterosexual pedophile and not take pleasure (sexual arousal) within the objects that morphologically and phenotypically “turn them on”?

But I’ll leave the politicking to the Church leadership. On a positive note, I think politics is where Catholicism bests Evangelical Protestantism, with Rome’s sophisticated and well schooled diplomatic corps.

I’m not bashing homosexuals. I’m not bashing heterosexual pedophiles either. But they might ask themselves why it is they have the attractions they do. But I suppose that inquiry is sealed once its become dogmatic doctrine “that one is born that way.” Or what we call biological determinism or genetic determinism. Either way it is deterministic.

The body does have deterministic qualities to it. Chemical operations in and out of the cells of the body are deterministic. The physics behind the fluid movement through the veins and tubes of the body are deterministic. But I don’t buy into the conception that from that the thoughts produced in the brain are deterministic to the extent they can never be altered. This sounds like the claim in neuroscience that free will is an illusion.
  1. beautifulboxer.com/
I do not follow your position at all? Does ever desire that comes into your mind mean it is good and should be entertained simply because it appears?
 
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