Dear Protestant: Where Did You Get Your Bible?

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi La,
You quoted writ that we live by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God, and I have been told He did not mouth canon, or that opacrypha is God breathed.

That is what I was getting at previous post.

Blessings

Greetings.

So all scripture is not God breathed 2 Tim 3:16?

Can you link me to where catholics are making such claims so i can better understand?

Thanks

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi La,

Not sure indulgences and prayer for dead sparked reformation. Certainly certain applications and presumptions of the aforementioned did, that did not exist 1000 years earlier.

Blessings

Johann Tetzel and his ilk sparked the reformation. They irritated Luther with their comments. Saying something like “when the coin in the coffer rings another soul in purgatory springs.”

In fact, i believe if the Church caves some on indulgences, Luther doesnt break.

Prayer for the dead dates before the Church existed.

 

[dawid]

Hi La,
You quoted writ that we live by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God, and I have been told He did not mouth canon, or that opacrypha is God breathed.

Hi benhur

Canon is the decision of those that He placed in authority as inspired by the holy Spirit.
The term apocrypha is often misunderstood and used to indicate uninspired works.

“Apocrypha” comes from the Greek word apokrypha [ajpovkrufo"], which means “things that are hidden, secret.”

Furthermore, Scripture also states of the early evangelists that those who hear you hear Me.

Regards
d

 

[dawid]

Not sure indulgences and prayer for dead sparked reformation. Certainly certain applications and presumptions of the aforementioned did, that did not exist 1000 years earlier.

Hi benhur

Concerning indulgences, I recommend the information on the subject - it refers to the Hebrew Scriptures as well - you may see it at: ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PRIMINDU.HTM

Concerning prayers for the dead - it is still Jewish practice and continued from the early Church.

Regards
d

 

[Dorothy]

Not sure indulgences and prayer for dead sparked reformation. Certainly certain applications and presumptions of the aforementioned did, that did not exist 1000 years earlier.

Blessings

I do know that there was corruption that had to be dealt with in the Church.

 

[benhur]

Greetings.

So all scripture is not God breathed 2 Tim 3:16?

Can you link me to where catholics are making such claims so i can better understand?

Thanks

Hi La,

Well we all should live by His word , and many believe scripture is most assuredly that "word’’, and beyond that, beware, even of just what is scripture and is not.

I was not saying Catholics say scripture is not breathed, but that scripture also has its equal assurance in its magisterium. That the magisterium must be also the "word "of God to live by. It goes further than canon, according to Catholics.

Blessings

 

[commenter]

Hi La,

Well we all should live by His word , and many believe scripture is most assuredly that "word’’, and beyond that, beware, even of just what is scripture and is not.

I was not saying Catholics say scripture is not breathed, but that scripture also has its equal assurance in its magisterium. That the magisterium must be also the "word "of God to live by. It goes further than canon, according to Catholics.

Blessings

Rather than comparing the 2 apples/oranges, better to describe the Magisterium as one teacher, teaching out of a textbook (the Bible). In Protestantism, there are many teachers teaching out of a textbook.

I don’t know that the textbook gets less “assurance” under a system with one teacher, than with many teachers. I know it gets complicated because both Catholics and Protestants inevitably are shaped somewhat by Tradition. But even then, you compare the one teacher interpreting tradition, with the many teachers interpreting tradition. (Even Christians who deny the authority of “Tradition” constantly affirm that the Bible must be “rightly divided” or properly understood in the right context, etc. All of which is tradition.)

But even so,
having one teacher teaching from the Scripture and interpreting tradition -

does not put Scripture lower than -

having many teachers teaching from Scripture and interpreting tradition.

You can’t understand the Magisterium without considering what other systems Protestants put in there to fill that function. What kinds of “assurance” do Protestants give those other things they substitute for the Magisterium?

 

[benhur]

Hi benhur

Concerning indulgences, I recommend the information on the subject - it refers to the Hebrew Scriptures as well - you may see it at: ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PRIMINDU.HTM

Concerning prayers for the dead - it is still Jewish practice and continued from the early Church.

Regards
d

Hi d,

The prayer for the dead Judaism has is much more restrained in scope than what is and has been practiced by “Catholics”.

Blessings

 

[dawid]

Hi d,

The prayer for the dead Judaism has is much more restrained in scope than what is and has been practiced by “Catholics”.

Blessings

Hi benhur

Jewish theology concerning the afterlife has not advanced as much as that of the Catholic Church. The Church has a theology and a practice which is practised,
The Jewish concept of God does not recognise a Trinity either.
One may consider that it is due to revelation and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Regards
d

 

[dawid]

Well we all should live by His word , and many believe scripture is most assuredly that "word’’, and beyond that, beware, even of just what is scripture and is not.

I was not saying Catholics say scripture is not breathed, but that scripture also has its equal assurance in its magisterium. That the magisterium must be also the "word "of God to live by. It goes further than canon, according to Catholics.

Hi benhur

It is not the Church’s “saying”, but Doctrine that Scripture is the Word of God.

Jesus did confer authority on His apostles to “bind and loose” on earth. He assured us too that the Holy Spirit would be with us.

It is with that Divinely-conferred authority that the canon of Scripture and other issues of Doctrine were defined.

The office of that authority is the Magisterium under the leadership of Peter’s successor, the bishop of Rome.

Doctrine would therefore be inspired by God.

So, to return to the initial point, Doctrine has to be in line with Scripture.

Regards
d

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi La,

Well we all should live by His word , and many believe scripture is most assuredly that "word’’, and beyond that, beware, even of just what is scripture and is not.

I was not saying Catholics say scripture is not breathed, but that scripture also has its equal assurance in its magisterium. That the magisterium must be also the "word "of God to live by. It goes further than canon, according to Catholics.

Blessings

Hi Ben

I understand what you’re saying now.

I dont want to stray off topic, but doesn’t every important document need to be properly interpreted in order for the author’s message to be conveyed? The constitution is much smaller in size, was written in English and is fairly recent (in the context of eternity, anyhow) and we still need the supreme court for proper interpretation.

 

[benhur]

Hi Ben

I understand what you’re saying now.

I dont want to stray off topic, but doesn’t every important document need to be properly interpreted in order for the author’s message to be conveyed? The constitution is much smaller in size, was written in English and is fairly recent (in the context of eternity, anyhow) and we still need the supreme court for proper interpretation.

Hi La,

OK. I would add that the Supreme Court interprets laws to see if they be constitutional. In that they may interpret intent of the Constitution, but outside of proper or improper. That is, laws come and go , but no guarantee of proper or improper “interpretation”. Both sides have same paper and history to look at, but with different “methodologies”.

Blessings

 

[dawid]

Hi benhur

That example is not quite relevant with respect to the teaching authority of the Church.
The Holy Spirit inspires the Church in its interpretation when an important aspect of doctrine must be decided.
That is not the case with the laws of men.

Regards
d

 

[rcwitness]

Even still… citizens are subject to the judgments of the Supreme Court. It is Supreme, in that it possess higher authority over each state.

Likewise, Christians are sudject to the highest court within the Church. And this court has similar jurisdiction… only the jurisdiction of the Church is not physical borders, but the body of believers.

The Church of God is not without law and order. It is not without government. This government is not a democracy, but a Monarchy, with a king who has ascended. We are left a steward, and stewards, and even all are stewards to some degree.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi La,

OK. I would add that the Supreme Court interprets laws to see if they be constitutional. In that they may interpret intent of the Constitution, but outside of proper or improper. That is, laws come and go , but no guarantee of proper or improper “interpretation”. Both sides have same paper and history to look at, but with different “methodologies”.

Blessings

Even still… citizens are subject to the judgments of the Supreme Court. It is Supreme, in that it possess higher authority over each state.

Likewise, Christians are sudject to the highest court within the Church. And this court has similar jurisdiction… only the jurisdiction of the Church is not physical borders, but the body of believers.

The Church of God is not without law and order. It is not without government. This government is not a democracy, but a Monarchy, with a king who has ascended. We are left a steward, and stewards, and even all are stewards to some degree.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Nice work

 

[Peter_J]

Even still… citizens are subject to the judgments of the Supreme Court.

Jesus, too, made an analogy with worldly authority. But then he added “It must not be so with you.”

 

[rcwitness]

Jesus, too, made an analogy with worldly authority. But then he added “It must not be so with you.”

Luke 22
A dispute also arose among them, which of them was to be regarded as the greatest. And he said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and those in authority over them are called benefactors. But not so with you; rather let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves. For which is the greater, one who sits at table, or one who serves? Is it not the one who sits at table? But I am among you as one who serves.

“You are those who have continued with me in my trials; as my Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.” And he said to him, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” He said, “I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, until you three times deny that you know me.”

 

[benhur]

Hi benhur

That example is not quite relevant with respect to the teaching authority of the Church.
The Holy Spirit inspires the Church in its interpretation when an important aspect of doctrine must be decided.
That is not the case with the laws of men.

Regards
d

Hi d,

Yes a bit different. Yet any church worth its salt interprets via Holy Spirit guidance. Just different “methodologies”

Blessings.

 

[benhur]

Even still… citizens are subject to the judgments of the Supreme Court. It is Supreme, in that it possess higher authority over each state.

Likewise, Christians are sudject to the highest court within the Church. And this court has similar jurisdiction… only the jurisdiction of the Church is not physical borders, but the body of believers.

The Church of God is not without law and order. It is not without government. This government is not a democracy, but a Monarchy, with a king who has ascended. We are left a steward, and stewards, and even all are stewards to some degree.

Hi rc,
yes Christ said we be under the seat of Moses, to do as they say. When they spew out error, it is not from the "seat’’, and we (citizens) are to be aware, and obviously not follow or be under/subject.

Blessings

 

[Peter_J]

Hence why we call the Pope of Rome “the first among equals”.

Luke 22
A dispute also arose among them, which of them was to be regarded as the greatest. And he said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and those in authority over them are called benefactors. But not so with you; rather let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves. For which is the greater, one who sits at table, or one who serves? Is it not the one who sits at table? But I am among you as one who serves.

“You are those who have continued with me in my trials; as my Father appointed a kingdom for me, so do I appoint for you that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial

“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.” And he said to him, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” He said, “I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, until you three times deny that you know me.”