Death Penalty: Applause for Rick Perry’s ‘Ultimate Justice’ at Republican Debate

[wondrousgnat]

It has long been my belief that the greatest evil is abortion. And as long as the future producers and consumers, etc. are being aborted all solutions to all problems (economy, health care, social security, etc.} will only be temporary. And become more desperate and radical as it continues/

 

[TimothyH]

You gotta vote for the best, not for the perfect.

Voting for a pro-life southern baptist who converted to Catholicism does more to promote the one true Church and to being people to salvation than does mainstreaming a non-Christian religion by electing a mormon to the office of president, thats for sure. Newt said that he would sign two executive orders on the first day, one for a concience clasue for healthcare workers and another reinstituting the ban on federal funding for abortion. You are not going to get better than that.

You gotta go with the best you have and trust God with the rest.

-Tim-

 

[ProVobis]

This point needs to be made over and over until it sinks in. With Democrats in control Roe will never be overturned. With Republicans in control it will, eventually, happen.

Hard to see that they would overturn themselves since it was the Republican court which put it into law in the first place, 7-2, and one of the dissenting votes was from a JFK-appointed justice. I didn’t hear much talk about overturning anything when the Republicans had complete control of the government from 2000-2006; it seems that only when they smell losing that they start playing the abortion card.

 

[ProVobis]

But again, all prolife justices presently sitting are Republican appointees.

Yet they vote on matters giving the same rights to corporations as individuals. Some prolife message that sends. At least Obama called them out on that one. Did Nixon say anything against Roe vs Wade? Or did Reagan, for that matter, after he himself signed an abortion bill as governor? No, it wasn’t until the latter saw a way to get power that he switched to a “pro-life” position. Let’s not kid ourselves, this is all about politics. These guys will say what they need to to get elected.

And I’m done with this thread. It seems to be going no where.

 

[exnihilo]

It doesn’t mean we cannot also work to end things via political channels, too. We don’t have to choose one way or the other. We can and should try every moral method available to us to end the great scourge of abortion.

If there was a political movement I would say withdrawing consent would be more sensible at this point. Any other engagement with politics only reinforces the state’s claim that it can make right killing fetuses by empowering the state.

So do you honestly believe a Catholic can vote for a pro-abortion canidate because pro-life candidates are either liars or not doing enough? Do you honestly believe that those of us in the Pro-life ministry are ignorant dupes using our votes to support people who dont really care about ending or limiting abortion? Or are you just looking to rationalize voting for pro-abrotion canidates?

I’m not saying anything about what a Catholic can or cant do. For me I certainly could never vote for a pro abortion candidate. I dont see a politicians proclamations in campaign speeches against abortion as a reason to vote for a candidate since there is no way to overturn abortion from within the political system. A politician who says he is against abortion, if he is to be trusted, is at least not a complete moral monster. But I would hope for something a little more than not being pure evil.

And if you read the Carhart decision, Roberts does not actually defend the decision in Roe. He simply says it’s the law, which it is for now, and used it to buttress his vote against partial birth abortion.

Abortion is not the law. It is judicial fiat. The same body that made abortion a right could surely end it. Roberts is not an idiot. He knows the same Supreme Court said slavery was legal in the US. He could say it took an amendment to make slavery illegal, and it did. So where does this abortion right come from? Not from the constitution. Not from laws. It came from the court. He believes he can not overturn abortion. So if he believes he cant who can? If you take the man at his word he said he will never overturn abortion. I believe him.

And it has been repeated on here many, many times, how many prolife actions George Bush took, most all of which have been reversed by Obama.

Bush’s pro death policies of wars on other countries doesn’t really convince me he has the same respect for life a Christian should have. If I’m going to support someone I need a lot more consistency. Please understand I mean I support neither Bush nor Obama nor anyone who could possibly be elected president of the US.

Until prolife people stop buying into the Democrat party line about how “Republicans didn’t stop abortion”, and similar deceptions, nothing will change, and those who refuse to oppose the pro-abortion politicians without exception, are complicit in the deaths of millions.

The Democrats, like the Republicans, are mostly wrong but they are right about that. I’m not a partisan. I have no loyalty to any political party. I was convinced of the Republican’s utter failure to do anything they claimed to do by other disaffected Republicans.

I just dont get it. We ran the test and the Republicans utterly failed to deliver. Faith in them is unwarranted. They have proven themselves unworthy. Nothing did change when they had the opportunity. I dont want to bang my head against the wall. I will not set myself up for disappointment.

Even if one views with total cynicism the actual personal devotion of Republican candidates to the prolife cause, one still has to acknowledge that the Republican constituency is now so full of prolifers that a pro-abortion Republican presidential candidate has virtually no chance of nomination or, if elected, of re-election if his colors prove false.

Rudy Giuliani polled pretty well last time around. He was even endorsed by Pat Robertson, who has influence over lots of Christians.

I dont disagree that Republicans will campaign on ending abortion. They can safely do that because they know that there is nothing they actually have to do when they are elected. They cant make laws ending abortion since it is legal due to judicial fiat. They can say they are going nominate anti abortion judges but the SCOTUS has repeatedly decided they will not overturn it. That is great news for the Republicans cause they can keep running on the abortion issue and getting votes off of it. It is like a sizable group of Americans want the sky to be red and the Republicans keep getting elected promising to make it so.

The question Republicans need to ask is why are they always hoodwinked? The Dems mostly get what they want. Dems wanted socialized health care. They got it. Republicans have been running on ending abortion and smaller government for 30 years. And they’ve gotten none of it.

 

[estesbob]

Yet they vote on matters giving the same rights to corporations as individuals. Some prolife message that sends. At least Obama called them out on that one. Did Nixon say anything against Roe vs Wade? Or did Reagan, for that matter, after he himself signed an abortion bill as governor? No, it wasn’t until the latter saw a way to get power that he switched to a “pro-life” position. Let’s not kid ourselves, this is all about politics. These guys will say what they need to to get elected.

And I’m done with this thread. It seems to be going no where.

Again you rationalize supporting evil based on what politicians did 40 years ago and rulimgs of judges appointed over a half century ago

*We should remember that one of the crucial things that set early Christians apart from the pagan culture around them was their rejection of abortion and infanticide. Yet for thirty-five years I’ve watched prominent “pro-choice” Catholics justify themselves with the kind of moral and verbal gymnastics that should qualify as an Olympic event. All they’ve really done is capitulate to Roe v. Wade.
*

Archbishop Charles Chaput

 

[exnihilo]

Again you rationalize supporting evil based on what politicians did 40 years ago and rulimgs of judges appointed over a half century ago

I dont think ProVobis was suggesting in any way to support evil. O’Connor was appointed 30 years ago. Kennedy 23 years ago. Souter 21 years ago. Roberts just 6 years ago. The disappointment and betrayer is ongoing and constant.

Here is a question. Is there any number of years of failure getting the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade that will cause you to believe that trying to elect Republicans to appoint justices is a failed strategy? For me half a lifetime is enough. Is it not worth considering alternative strategies?

 

[estesbob]

I dont think ProVobis was suggesting in any way to support evil. O’Connor was appointed 30 years ago. Kennedy 23 years ago. Souter 21 years ago. Roberts just 6 years ago. The disappointment and betrayer is ongoing and constant.

He was refering to Nixon Reagan and the Justices who imposed Roe V Wade

Here is a question. Is there any number of years of failure getting the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade that will cause you to believe that trying to elect Republicans to appoint justices is a failed strategy? For me half a lifetime is enough. Is it not worth considering alternative strategies?

As long as it takes. The idea that we can somewhow end abortion by voting for people who have vowed not only to keep it legal but also believe the taxpayers should be forced to pay for it is absurd beyond belief.

 

[PGK2505]

I dont think ProVobis was suggesting in any way to support evil. O’Connor was appointed 30 years ago. Kennedy 23 years ago. Souter 21 years ago. Roberts just 6 years ago. The disappointment and betrayer is ongoing and constant.

Here is a question. Is there any number of years of failure getting the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade that will cause you to believe that trying to elect Republicans to appoint justices is a failed strategy? For me half a lifetime is enough. Is it not worth considering alternative strategies?

This is my first post on Catholic Forums, so forgive me for jumping right in…

The diasappointment and betrayal of all sinners is ongoing and constant in each of our souls. Our Lord, fortunately for us, does not set a number of years before giving up on his strategy of conitinuosly offering us Communion with Him through the Sacraments. I think it would be a shame for us to give up on the cause of saving bodies and souls by ceasing the activities of voting for pro-life candidates, ministering to abortion-minded women and men, offering healing to post-abortion parents, etc.

 

[exnihilo]

The idea that we can somewhow end abortion by voting for people who have vowed not only to keep it legal but also believe the taxpayers should be forced to pay for it is absurd beyond belief.

I agree. But that does not mean the opposite is not also absurd.

This is my first post on Catholic Forums, so forgive me for jumping right in…

The diasappointment and betrayal of all sinners is ongoing and constant in each of our souls. Our Lord, fortunately for us, does not set a number of years before giving up on his strategy of conitinuosly offering us Communion with Him through the Sacraments. I think it would be a shame for us to give up on the cause of saving bodies and souls by ceasing the activities of voting for pro-life candidates, ministering to abortion-minded women and men, offering healing to post-abortion parents, etc.

Welcome!

I’m not in any way saying we should not continue to oppose abortion and counsel people against it including informing them of the great evil it is. I just dont get why people would continue to hope for a political solution within the system that has failed absent any dramatic changes. You might be able to vote in a dictator who is against abortion. But that would be a dramatic change. You might be able to vote in a president who threatens to jail the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, as Lincoln did, unless he overturns abortion. Of you could vote in a president who promises to ignore the court, again as Lincoln did. But absent such dramatic changes in the political order no change will occur.

 

[estesbob]

This is my first post on Catholic Forums, so forgive me for jumping right in…

The diasappointment and betrayal of all sinners is ongoing and constant in each of our souls. Our Lord, fortunately for us, does not set a number of years before giving up on his strategy of conitinuosly offering us Communion with Him through the Sacraments. I think it would be a shame for us to give up on the cause of saving bodies and souls by ceasing the activities of voting for pro-life candidates, ministering to abortion-minded women and men, offering healing to post-abortion parents, etc.

Welcome to CAF!

 

[Ridgerunner]

Abortion is not the law. It is judicial fiat. The same body that made abortion a right could surely end it. Roberts is not an idiot. He knows the same Supreme Court said slavery was legal in the US. He could say it took an amendment to make slavery illegal, and it did. So where does this abortion right come from? Not from the constitution. Not from laws. It came from the court. He believes he can not overturn abortion. So if he believes he cant who can? If you take the man at his word he said he will never overturn abortion. I believe him. Except, of course, that Roberts never said he will never overturn abortion. And judicial fiat is, indeed, the law, at least until it’s overturned.

Bush’s pro death policies of wars on other countries doesn’t really convince me he has the same respect for life a Christian should have. If I’m going to support someone I need a lot more consistency. Please understand I mean I support neither Bush nor Obama nor anyone who could possibly be elected president of the US. So, because in your opinion Bush was not engaging in just war, you conclude that he was not against abortion, when every thing he did as president says otherwise. That doesn’t really work.

I just dont get it. We ran the test and the Republicans utterly failed to deliver. Faith in them is unwarranted. They have proven themselves unworthy. Nothing did change when they had the opportunity. I dont want to bang my head against the wall. I will not set myself up for disappointment. I don’t wish to bang my head against a wall either, so I’m not going to linger long on this. You are convinced that, despite a number of Republican limitations on abortion (as many as could constitutionally be done and some that couldn’t) and Bush’s appointment of Roberts (whom you mischaracterize) and Alito, they disappointed you because they couldn’t appoint more justices than they could and couldn’t pass more laws than they could. This is just asking for the impossible, and perhaps because some think expecting the impossible is an excuse for doing the inexcusable.

Rudy Giuliani polled pretty well last time around. He was even endorsed by Pat Robertson, who has influence over lots of Christians. He got trounced. Everybody knows that.

I dont disagree that Republicans will campaign on ending abortion. They can safely do that because they know that there is nothing they actually have to do when they are elected. They cant make laws ending abortion since it is legal due to judicial fiat. They can say they are going nominate anti abortion judges but the SCOTUS has repeatedly decided they will not overturn it. That is great news for the Republicans cause they can keep running on the abortion issue and getting votes off of it. It is like a sizable group of Americans want the sky to be red and the Republicans keep getting elected promising to make it so.

The question Republicans need to ask is why are they always hoodwinked? The Dems mostly get what they want. Dems wanted socialized health care. They got it. Republicans have been running on ending abortion and smaller government for 30 years. And they’ve gotten none of it.

Dems got socialized healthcare because they had filibuster-proof majorities in the senate and the house; something the Repubs have not had within memory. It’s a lot harder to get rid of abortion on demand because it requires either a constitutional amendment or appointment of enough prolife justices to reverse Roe and its progeny. But the record of the Repubs in opposing abortion promotion and funding has been very good. Obama and his Dems, of course, have done everything in their power to undo those things and to promote abortion, including making you, as well as Catholic institutions, pay for it; something the Repubs never did.

So what if the Repubs have not had enough power to really do away with Roe? What’s the answer to that? To give them less power and to give the pro-abortionists more? If one is going to fight against that evil, one needs to fight and to stay in the fight and accept the disappointments. Alternatively, one can give up, despair, encourage others to despair, and become complicit in 50 million deaths and climbing.

And when one leaves the fight, particularly if one leaves it on flimsy grounds, one is definitely complicit. One who does that should shoulder the responsibility he has taken on, not try to excuse it by saying those who oppose abortion “haven’t done enough” to suit him.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I agree. But that does not mean the opposite is not also absurd.

Welcome!

I’m not in any way saying we should not continue to oppose abortion and counsel people against it including informing them of the great evil it is. I just dont get why people would continue to hope for a political solution within the system that has failed absent any dramatic changes. You might be able to vote in a dictator who is against abortion. But that would be a dramatic change. You might be able to vote in a president who threatens to jail the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, as Lincoln did, unless he overturns abortion. Of you could vote in a president who promises to ignore the court, again as Lincoln did. But absent such dramatic changes in the political order no change will occur.

Pretty far out.

G.W. Bush appointed two prolife justices, the absolutely incorrect slanders of Roberts notwithstanding. If one reads the Carhart decision, it is plain that Roberts did not endorse the Roe decision, and it’s simply a falsehood to claim he did. It’s also plain that five Repub appointees opposed partial birth abortion and every single Dem appointee favord it. Every one of them.

It doesn’t take a dictatorship to reverse Roe, it takes people voting against pro-abortion presidential and senatorial candidates consistently and insistently, something far too many Catholics and protestants alike, refuse to do. Everybody knows who the pro-abortion candidates are, and everybody knows which party is pro-abortion (read the platforms). Nobody who fails to effectively oppose those candidates can truthfully call himself prolife at all. He can call himself a supporter of abortion, and correctly so.

 

[estesbob]

Pretty far out.

G.W. Bush appointed two prolife justices, the absolutely incorrect slanders of Roberts notwithstanding. If one reads the Carhart decision, it is plain that Roberts did not endorse the Roe decision, and it’s simply a falsehood to claim he did. It’s also plain that five Repub appointees opposed partial birth abortion and every single Dem appointee favord it. Every one of them.

It doesn’t take a dictatorship to reverse Roe, it takes people voting against pro-abortion presidential and senatorial candidates consistently and insistently, something far too many Catholics and protestants alike, refuse to do. Everybody knows who the pro-abortion candidates are, and everybody knows which party is pro-abortion (read the platforms). Nobody who fails to effectively oppose those candidates can truthfully call himself prolife at all. He can call himself a supporter of abortion, and correctly so.

The only people who claim Republicans dont do anything about limiting abortion or trying to end it are those who claim to be pro-life but consistently vote for pro-abortion candates.

 

[yosupman]

The Republican party, the Tea Party and conservative talk show hosts are really not helping in the pro-life movement. They rarely make a noncommital comment like “we don’t support abortion” which means there is no real opposition.

Today there are about 1,500,000 abortions every year in merica alone. It seems as though we have a lost cause. But I have picketed abortion clinics. Some people arrive for abortions and get talked out of it. I have been suspicious of some cars that slow down then pass by (maybe they are rethinking heir decision). One time a clinic employee asked us to pray for her so that she could get a different job not in the abortion industry. She quit a few days later.

Sadly, we are not coming close to putting an end to abortion. But if we keep active we will be saving one baby, one life at a time.

Conservative talk show host’s job is not to talk about being prolife everyday. Just like my job is a CPA. I don’t talk about pro-life topics everyday. Neither to I protest abortion clinics. Conversative talk show hosts, tea party folks, and republicans to a lot more for this country than you can think. Most conservative talk show hosts job is to talk about the current news from a conservative perspective. When abortion is in the news, they (Rush, Sean Hannity, others) do adress the issue.

 

[MillTownCath]

Dems got socialized healthcare because they had filibuster-proof majorities in the senate and the househim.

False. We do not have socialized healthcare. The bill that past was a watered down piece of trash, in my humble opinion.

 

[MillTownCath]

Random fact: Canada has universal healthcare, and they do not have a budget deficit.

The more you know

 

[Gift_from_God]

Random fact: Canada has universal healthcare, and they do not have a budget deficit.

The more you know

We also have never had a bank failure

 

[lisahiku]

good point my dear canadians!
our american dollar USED to be more than yours. Now that 's changed too.

 

[lisahiku]

my 2 cents…it doesn’t really matter if the candidate is republican or democrat.
Both parties have prolife candidates and prochoice candidates.

abortion is not going to be overturned unless the supreme court re-rules. which is highly unlikely…or at least not anytime soon.

Women need to realize that abortion doesn’t make them UN pregnant.
If they could ever get that thru their heads…

abortions would go down!