Death Penalty

[BenRosa]

tru_dvotion:

manipulation of DNA evidence and framing innocent people with DNA evidence is going to be the next step…

Let’s not get carried away with this point…that would be quite a conspiracy involving many people removed from the judicial system.

Sufice it to say, that an innocent person executed would surely find their just reward for suffering the same fate our our Lord Jesus Christ. I would hope the individual’s family would be able to relate to that comforting realization.

 

[mercygate]

Allowing for public safety (and what our halachic friends call “rodaif”), it can be said that whenever you do not kill another human being you are doing a better thing than when you do kill him.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Sufice it to say, that an innocent person executed would surely find their just reward for suffering the same fate our our Lord Jesus Christ. I would hope the individual’s family would be able to relate to that comforting realization.

And that should be quite comforting for you and others when your vote and civic voice has sent an innocent person to the electric chair. How very noble of you!

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Vincent:

Dr. Janet Smith writes,

Well said. :clapping:

I am against the death penalty in all instances except where it is necessary for the defense of others. The practical effect of this is that where any country or state has the ability to lock a guilty person away for life, the taking of that person’s life in the alternative is a sin.

 

[Fidelis]

Genesis 9:5-6
5
For your own lifeblood, too, I will demand an accounting: from every animal I will demand it, and from man in regard to his fellow man I will demand an accounting for human life.
6
If anyone sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God has man been made.

This is why capital punishment is justifiable.

Acts 25:11
11
If then I am a wrongdoer, and have committed anything for which I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death.

Paul acknowledges that capital punishment is appropriate if justified.

Romans 13:1-7
1
1 Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.
2
Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.
3
For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,
4
for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.
5
Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience.
6
This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7
Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

Paul reminds the Romans that the state has authority and a solemn responsibility and duty to “wield the sword” (swords aren’t used for tickling)

The abortion and capital punishment issues are not to be regarded equally. See how nuanced the Catechism’s treatment of the death penalty is and contrast it with it’s unequivocal condemnation of abortion. There is no simplistic “seamless garment” approach to right to life issues. It is a question of justice (not revenge) toward those who have commited grave, even heinous crimes, versus the taking of an innocent life in the very womb of it’s mother.

 

[tru_dvotion]

The abortion and capital punishment issues are not to be regarded equally.

Oh really?
Since when one soul is more precious to God than another? :tsktsk:

 

[Fidelis]

tru_dvotion:

Oh really?
Since when one soul is more precious to God than another? :tsktsk:

I wasn’t talking about the value of souls, I was talking about how the Church teaches regarding each issue.

 

[tru_dvotion]

I wasn’t talking about the value of souls, I was talking about how the Church teaches regarding each issue.

I disagree with making a comparison. One does not excuse or excludes the other. The only way it should be discussed; that both are wrong and are inherently evil. “Thou shall not kill” should suffice.

 

[Fidelis]

tru_dvotion:

I disagree with making a comparison. One does not excuse or excludes the other. The only way it should be discussed; that both are wrong and are inherently evil. “Thou shall not kill” should suffice.

There is NO equivalence to the taking of the life of an innocent unborn child in it’s mother’s womb, with the state executing a child-killing terrorist or a cold-blooded killer who methodically rapes, tortures and kills someones daughter. None.

The biblical injunction “Thou shalt not kill,” properly translated from the Hebrew, is “Thou shalt not murder.” This, taken with the Scripture quotes I cited above (Genesis 9:5-6; Acts 25:11; Romans 13:1-7) plus the Church’s nuanced teaching on the death penalty contrasted with it’s unequivocal condemnation of abortion shows there is no simplistic “seamless garment” approach to right to life issues.

 

[chemcatholic]

BenRosa:

Hello ChemCatholic…

Whether the convicted murderer dies in prision or is executed, if he or she does not reconcile themselves with our Father…there will be no punishment mankind can impose that will come close to an eternity with out the love of our Father.

I know this and you know this, but my point was that somebody who is able to bring themselves to kill another human being probably does not believe this, despite the fact that it is true. If a murderer believes there is no afterlife, then in his mind the death penalty is likely to be a welcomed release from life imprisonment without parole. I tried to explain this in the footnote of my last post, but perhaps it didn’t come across clearly.

Peace

 

[NightRider]

JMJ_Pinoy:

I saw a bumper sticker on a car once that sums it all up for me: EXECUTION IS NOT THE SOLUTION!

-JMJ

This sums it all up for me, too! I would like to find one of these bumper stickers myself! God bless!

 

[tru_dvotion]

There is NO equivalence to the taking of the life of an innocent unborn child in it’s mother’s womb, with the state executing a child-killing terrorist or a cold-blooded killer who methodically rapes, tortures and kills someones daughter. None.

Who made you judge and jury? Not everybody who is on death row in the USA or serving life in the Canadian jails is guilty of murder. Some of those people had inferior representation and some were framed. Perhaps their only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time or not picking friends wisely. You assume all are serial killers. Maybe that could be true in a black and white world… But the one we are living in is full of complexities and twists and turns. Where have you been?

 

[Fidelis]

tru_dvotion:

Who made you judge and jury?

Nobody. But there are people that *are * judges and juries, and the point of the Romans quote I gave is that they have the responsibility to carry out justice. Why don’t you address in a rational manner the Church teachings I brought up instead of running on pure emotion?

Not everybody

who is on death row in the USA or serving life in the Canadian jails is guilty of murder. *Some * of those people had inferior representation and some were framed. Perhaps their only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time or not picking friends wisely. You assume all are serial killers. Maybe that could be true in a black and white world… But the one we are living in is full of complexities and twists and turns.

This is not in dispute. But fact is many of them are guilty of heinous crimes. Do you think people murder themselves? Maybe we should do away with the police and courts completely – why go through the trouble and expense?

Where have you been?

Since you asked so nicely, I have been busy learning the teachings of the Church. Where have you been? Anger management classes, I hope.

 

[tru_dvotion]

Ah, I am not angry. But I am utterly amazed at your limited scope. If you were a little better informed about the justice system in the States and/or in Canada, you would not be making such sweeping statements.

 

[pnewton]

Fidelis is correct about the teaching of the Catholic church. Abortion has always been intrinsically evil in all circumstances. Capital punishment has not been and is not today. One can be a faithful Catholic and take various stands of the issue on the death penalty. One may not be a faithful Catholic and support abortion.

To say that capital punishment is an evil is an opinion (and a valid opinion) but not the the teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[BenRosa]

chemcatholic:

If a murderer believes there is no afterlife, then in his mind the death penalty is likely to be a welcomed release from life imprisonment without parole.

Hello ChemCatholic:

Yes, that’s a good point and I thought about it. I’m just reminded of the saying among soldiers that “there are no atheists in foxholes.” What I mean is I don’t personally believe people face their hour of death without realizing the presence of our Father. They either accept His will and repent, or totally reject it. The condemed still have a chance at heaven.

 

[Fidelis]

tru_dvotion:

Ah, I am not angry. But I am utterly amazed at your limited scope. If you were a little better informed about the justice system in the States and/or in Canada, you would not be making such sweeping statements.

I don’t think you know enough about me to make that assumption. I have been in the military, law enforcement, and the fire service my whole life and have first hand experience of the subject at hand. I am 47 years old, college educated and, may I say, extremely well read.

My statements have been no more sweeping than yours. The difference is my perspective is based on experience with victims and their families, the legal system, the teachings of the Church (which you have not addressed), and much prayer (I once felt as you do). The examples of miscarried justice you cited do not outweigh the fact that heinous crimes are commited, the guilty must be found and judged guilty, and the the Bible and the Church clearly teach that the state has the right to carry out capital punishment. Please address that rather than attacking me and my “limited scope” and my so-called being not "informed "on the criminal justice system.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

The only one who has a right to take it away is the ONE who gave it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

SPOKENWORD:

The only one who has a right to take it away is the ONE who gave it.

Not according to the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

Read the Catechism.

It does not totally rule out capital punishment.

Then there is also the right to self defense.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

ByzCath:

Not according to the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

Read the Catechism.

It does not totally rule out capital punishment.

Then there is also the right to self defense.

How about according to God? YOU SHALL NOT KILL…