Death Penalty

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

SPOKENWORD:

How about according to God? YOU SHALL NOT KILL…

So you want to quote the Bible? What about all these?
Numbers 35

31 " 'Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.

Genesis 9

5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,

by man shall his blood be shed;

for in the image of God

has God made man.

Numbers 35

16 " 'If a man strikes someone with an iron object so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. 17 Or if anyone has a stone in his hand that could kill, and he strikes someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. 18 Or if anyone has a wooden object in his hand that could kill, and he hits someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. 19 The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death. 20 If anyone with malice aforethought shoves another or throws something at him intentionally so that he dies 21 or if in hostility he hits him with his fist so that he dies, that person shall be put to death; he is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him.

Numbers 35

30 " 'Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

31 " 'Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.

32 " 'Do not accept a ransom for anyone who has fled to a city of refuge and so allow him to go back and live on his own land before the death of the high priest.

33 " 'Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it.

Deuteronomy 17

6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

and here are more, you can look them up yourself.

Leviticus 20:10

Deuteronomy 22:24

Leviticus 20:11-12,14

Exodus 22:19

Zechariah 5:4

Exodus 21:16

Deuteronomy 24:7

Leviticus 21:9

Exodus 22:18

Leviticus 20:2-5

Exodus 21:15

Exodus 21:17

Leviticus 20:9

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

Zechariah 5:3

Leviticus 24:11-14

Leviticus 24:16

Leviticus 24:23

Exodus 35:2

Numbers 15:32-36

Deuteronomy 13:1-10

Exodus 22:20

Deuteronomy 17:12

1 Kings 2:2

Esther 2:23

Acts 5:36-37

 

[SPOKENWORD]

ByzCath:

So you want to quote the Bible? What about all these?
Numbers 35

31 " 'Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.

Genesis 9

5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,

by man shall his blood be shed;

for in the image of God

has God made man.

Numbers 35

16 " 'If a man strikes someone with an iron object so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. 17 Or if anyone has a stone in his hand that could kill, and he strikes someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. 18 Or if anyone has a wooden object in his hand that could kill, and he hits someone so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death. 19 The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death. 20 If anyone with malice aforethought shoves another or throws something at him intentionally so that he dies 21 or if in hostility he hits him with his fist so that he dies, that person shall be put to death; he is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him.

Numbers 35

30 " 'Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

31 " 'Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.

32 " 'Do not accept a ransom for anyone who has fled to a city of refuge and so allow him to go back and live on his own land before the death of the high priest.

33 " 'Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it.

Deuteronomy 17

6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

Jesus did away with the eye for an eye,tooth for a tooth. Two wrongs dont make a right. Did you know in exodus 21, if you striked your father and mother you were put to death. A kidnapper was put to death,cursing your father and mother was put to death.If an ox caused death to a man the owner was put to death. Well praise God for his Son Jesus who takes away our sins and has paid the price[death] through His precious blood. Again I repeat YOU SHALL NOT KILL.

 

[Fidelis]

SPOKENWORD:

How about according to God? YOU SHALL NOT KILL…

I wish people would read previous posts:

Genesis 9:5-6
5
For your own lifeblood, too, I will demand an accounting: from every animal I will demand it, and from man in regard to his fellow man I will demand an accounting for human life.
6
If anyone sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; For in the image of God has man been made.

That is why capital punishment is justifiable.

Acts 25:11
11
If then I am a wrongdoer, and have committed anything for which I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death.

Thus, St. Paul acknowledges that capital punishment is appropriate if justified.

Romans 13:1-7
1
1 Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.
2
Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.
3
For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,
4
for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.
5
Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience.
6
This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7
Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

Thus, St. Paul reminds the Romans that the state has authority and a solemn responsibility and duty to “wield the sword” (swords aren’t used for tickling)

“An eye for an eye” is one of the most misapplied quotes of our time. It means that the punishment shall not be greater than the crime. It does not mean that justice will not be served. Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfil it.

The biblical injunction “Thou shalt not kill,” properly translated from the Hebrew, is “Thou shalt not murder.” This, taken with the Scripture quotes I cited above (Genesis 9:5-6; Acts 25:11; Romans 13:1-7) plus the Church’s nuanced teaching on the death penalty contrasted with it’s unequivocal condemnation of abortion shows there is no simplistic “seamless garment” approach to right to life issues.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Yes Jesus came to fulfill the law. He is the price for mankinds sin. Jesus came so that we might have life.

 

[pnewton]

SPOKENWORD:

Yes Jesus came to fulfill the law. He is the price for mankinds sin. Jesus came so that we might have life.

Jesus was not refering to physical life. He fathered no children. He was refering to eternal life, to spiritual life.

We cannot take scripture out of context and away from the teaching of the church. I beleive there are valid arguments against the death penalty, but I do not think we can use Sacred Scripture as a witness.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

pnewton:

Jesus was not refering to physical life. He fathered no children. He was refering to eternal life, to spiritual life.

We cannot take scripture out of context and away from the teaching of the church. I beleive there are valid arguments against the death penalty, but I do not think we can use Sacred Scripture as a witness.

Are we not children of the living God. Do we not have Daddy God as our Father. Im sorry but I disagree with you. Sacred Scripture is Gods Written Word.

 

[BenRosa]

I am reminded of the “good thief”, who acknowledged, while dying on a cross along side our Lord, his crime and his appointed crucifixion to the “unrepented thief” as something they both deserved. Our Lord looked beyond this method of justice (execution) and toward the future, telling this thief he’d be in paradise with Him.

It may come down to what one deserves…and are they “big” enough to own up to the consequences of their actions.

 

[Exporter]

And in conclusion: We still have the death penalty in my state, and it seems not many are protesting.

I agree with John Paul II, but I have to be dragged screaming and kicking to do that. Especially when it is an adult torturing a child to death.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

I was just sitting reflecting on Gods written word. God spoke and Moses wrote them down. God said YOU SHALL NOT KILL… Can it be any clearer. Man is the one who makes up this worlds laws. Gods laws are clear. They never change ,but mans do. Yes we are to obey mans laws but Gods Laws are above all.

 

[pnewton]

SPOKENWORD:

God said YOU SHALL NOT KILL… Can it be any clearer. Man is the one who makes up this worlds laws. Gods laws are clear.

Once again, every time I see “Thou Shalt Not Kill” I will repost what has been said many times. This does not refer to the the death penalty. If you really believe that it does, then you make God to be a sinner and a liar because in the same law he institutes a death penalty. Typing it in capitals does it make it more true.

 

[lil_lady]

**Although the thought of killing somebody really scares me, I am for the death penalty in extreme cases. Say Osama bin Ladin is caught and thrown in prison awaiting trial. If he gets tried and is sentenced to life in prison without parole, there is a very good chance that he could escape. He is the head of the biggest band of terrorists in the world. He is a danger to society, and if he escaped, he could be even more dangerous because of his anger about being caught. But if he is given the death penalty, there is no chance of his returning and being an even larger threat to society. But I do not believe it is right to use the death penalty unless there is an extreme reason to do so. If a murderer is tried and proven guilty, and is sentenced to the death penalty and is killed. . . what if new evidence proves that he was not the murderer after all. Then you are taking the life of an innocent man, and destroying the lives of all those who loved him. **

 

[Prometheum_x]

As has been pointed out, it is simply not true that God is the only one who has the authority to kill. There are those to whom God has delegated that authority throughout history, most notably the people of Israel, who had capital punishment written into the laws which God gave to them.

If it were true that Jesus changed all that, why were those who were employed as soldiers never condemned for their profession in the New Testament?

If it were true that it is always intrinsically evil to kill, then we should never defend ourselves to the point of death or those we love from those who would seek to take lives to the point of death. In fact, we could easily expand that doctrine and state that we, out of our respect for life, should not harm anything either, for certainly that would be contrary to the Gospel, which says to love your enemies. We should therefore not even physically resist aggression.

If that were true, we should never go to war on behalf of the oppressed, even to save populations from certain genocide.

---

Concerning the punishment of those who are actually innocent: This should be a concern, since we are striving for justice. However, if we should not execute anyone lest we execute an innocent person, neither should we imprison or punish anyone, lest we do so to an innocent person. In both cases, there is a risk of injustice. Indeed, the execution of an innocent person is a greater injustice than wrongful imprisonment, but the fear of injustice is not in itself sufficient reason to not execute anyone, unless we are willing to withhold justice from all for such a reason.

 

[mtr01]

I always thought the commandment was actually “Thou shall not murder”, as in take an innocent life. This, to my understanding is why the Church still accepts that capital punishment may be the last recourse in protecting society (also why soldiers in war, ordinary people in self-defense, and policemen in the line of duty are not guilty of mortal sin).

I also happen to agree with our Holy Father that in civilized society there is currently enough advance in our penal systems to render the need for capital punishment virtually non-existant.

 

[tru_dvotion]

The death penalty, like most things, can be supported or refuted by Scriptures or Catechism. We should not explain our position with Old Testament laws. Try to explain stoning an adulterer. This is year 2004. So the question is what is the current, official position of the teaching Magisterium on the death penalty? That is what we have to listen to, that is, ultimately, what we have to respect.

 

[Dismas2004]

The Death Penalty oftens brings about heated discussions. I’m so glad to hear that this one has not brought out the “dark” side in people. This thread hasn’t had a response in a long time, but I feel compelled to respond.

First; I think there is a better reason to not support the death penalty in any case! The focus should be on the victim. That being said, how many times have you heard it siad that executing anothe rman brings about justice and closure for the fmaily of the victims. This is a horrible use of propaganda. You see, it sets up the idea that the family can not get closure, become mentally healthy again, without the execution of another man. So their mental well being is dependant on this person getting caught, tried, convicted and executed. That is a lot of if’s. But even more importnat than that is the idea that the victim’s famly will find happiness when X occurs, that it is dependent on somethiong in creation. WRONG!!! It is dependent on self and the Creator. We set up psychological failure when we endorse the death penalty and just perpetuate the idea amongst our young. Do you think it is any coincidence that so many try to find happiness in other things and happenings? Is it realated to Capital punishment? Yes. Caused by capital punishment, NO - it is just reflective of the errors of our way in doing things here in America.

Second - There were a few comments about people in prison and the great treatment they get, then another saying they shouldn’t have anything. Both of you are wrong. I have no hesitation in saying such a thing. No social scientist or Correctional System administrator would endorse such psoitions. They are both urban myth and have no warrant or base in empirtical knowledge.

For instance - Do criminals have btter cable packages then the average person - NO! Most do not even have cable and those that do, often it is donated by a church - so it isn’t the taxpayer paying for it. Get mad at the church that supplies it then!

Also, What do you think will happen when you take away all privileges and comfort(i.e. contact with the outside world, visits, phone calls)? Most prisoners will evetually return to society. The only question is, how do we want them to come back?

Let us remember that there is Christ within everyone, even Osama and Timothy McV., and the bully down the street! To forget that is to forget what Christ looked like.

Take care and God bless.

 

[pnewton]

tru_dvotion:

The death penalty, like most things, can be supported or refuted by Scriptures or Catechism.

This is the reason why application of the death penalty is a matter of prudential judgement. While the Church has not changed it’s teaching, the application of the teaching in today’ society has potentially changed. Also, when various church officials make statements in regard to the death penalty, we need to remember that they are expressing a judgement or opinion.

This judgement may be better grounded in knowledge than some, or it may be less, depending on the person’s knowledge of criminolgy.,

 

[Lisa_N]

mtr01:

I
I also happen to agree with our Holy Father that in civilized society there is currently enough advance in our penal systems to render the need for capital punishment virtually non-existant.

The operative word being virtually…IOW only in the most extreme cases. I don’t say this so much with respect to the visciousness
of the crime (IOW I am totally against hate crime add ons) But it should be available in certain very extreme situations.

In our state we have a death penalty but it is almost never used. What it DOES however, is provide a bargaining chip when dealing with certain convicts. For example our latest scumbag killer, Ward Weaver who molested (probably raped) two young girls who were friends of his daughter. He later murdered both of them
and buried them in his yard. This man strung us along for over
a year, feigning mental illness, firing his counsel over and over.
When it did look like he might FINALLY go to trial, he pled the case out and took life without parole. This saved our state the agony (not to mention expense) of trying him, surely convicting him and no doubt he would have received the death penalty which would have created endless appeals. Now the man is in prison and we don’t have to do anything but feed him for the next forty or so years. SImilarly Edward Morris who murdered his wife and kids because they caused him “stress” also pled out and is now in prison for life. Without the death penalty on the books, neither of these two guys would have given up without an endless fight.

So having the death penalty on the books is not such a bad idea. I just don’t think it should be used other than in the most extreme situations

Lisa N

 

[Dismas2004]

>>>

The operative word being virtually…IOW only in the most extreme cases. I don’t say this so much with respect to the visciousness
of the crime (IOW I am totally against hate crime add ons) But it should be available in certain very extreme situations.

In our state we have a death penalty but it is almost never used. What it DOES however, is provide a bargaining chip when dealing with certain convicts. For example our latest scumbag killer, Ward Weaver who molested (probably raped) two young girls who were friends of his daughter. He later murdered both of them
and buried them in his yard. This man strung us along for over
a year, feigning mental illness, firing his counsel over and over.
When it did look like he might FINALLY go to trial, he pled the case out and took life without parole. This saved our state the agony (not to mention expense) of trying him, surely convicting him and no doubt he would have received the death penalty which would have created endless appeals. Now the man is in prison and we don’t have to do anything but feed him for the next forty or so years. SImilarly Edward Morris who murdered his wife and kids because they caused him “stress” also pled out and is now in prison for life. Without the death penalty on the books, neither of these two guys would have given up without an endless fight.

So having the death penalty on the books is not such a bad idea. I just don’t think it should be used other than in the most extreme situations

Lisa N

I do think that is a very good reason. essentially you are sying we should have it on the books to hold over people’s head when they are prosecuted so they’ll fess up without causing a lengthy trial and appeals if convicted. What if you were wrongly charged with a crime, you went through your prelimenary hearing and the judge bond you over for trial ( all this means that there is suffucient evidence to take it to tiral, i.e. it looks like it is very possible that you could have committed the crime.) Would you like that held over your head. A man’s life, or the decision to take it should never be held as a bargaining chip. I have a hard time reconciling that position with the Gospel. Especially when so many have been exonerated from death row on DNA evidence. The death penalty was surely a bargaining chip the DA’s office used for them.

But, Lisa N - that isn’t the most tragic thing about thoughts, at least tome. Your thoughts are the same as many. So many people have a misconception of what the court system does and how it works. No one really knows until they have come in contact with it, which in most cases means being a victim. Are system is set up to promote the appearance of justice, not justice it-self.

So while I understand your position, and can sympathise to a point, I beleive it to be wrong and unreconciable with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I would be interested however if you think it does match up with the Gospel and how.

 

[Lisa_N]

Dismas your concerns might be valid if people being wrongly tried and wrongly convicted actually were a reality in this country. It is not the case. For one because the courts are so clogged very few even go to trial. Further they are not going to try cases, particularly capital cases, unless they are virtual slam dunks. No DA wants his/her record damaged with a bunch of losing efforts.

IOW the idea that someone who was totally innocent would plead guilty and accept life without parole because they had the death penalty hanging over them is just flat preposterous. I think we have far more instances where the guilty go free because there is evidence that cannot be used. And yes I do know how the criminal justice system works. There are so many safeguards for the prisoners that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to simply trump up and prove capital charges.

I think my position that the death penalty should be available but used only in the most extreme circumstances is quite in line with Church teachings even if you do not share the opinon.

Lisa N