Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

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O_Duirnin said:
I did not infer that you wouldn’t survive - what I said is that you would be accused of collaboration with the enemy, much like a German sympathiser would’ve been in Britain in the 1940s. You would have the appropriate action taken against you, either imprisonment or deportation. I doubt Palestinian Security Forces would be silly enough to go in Israeli-style with all guns blazing. ** Possibly not. More likely, they would drop rocket bombs on schoolchildren, just as they tried to do in Ashkelon yesterday.**

The flotilla refused to consent to an Israel search of the cargo as such a search had already been carried out the relevant port authorities in the nations from whence the ships departed. Furthermore, they knew that Israel would remove the building supplies and medical equipment which formed the bulk of the shipment, as these commodities are on Israel’s ‘black-list’ of goods prohibited from the Gaza Strip, in spite of international condemnation. **They would, indeed, have removed supplies with which Hamas builds its well-publicized tunnels into Egypt. Does anyone really expect us to believe nothing could have been loaded on these boats at sea, or that port authorities would have really seen everything? Millions of pounds of contraband enter the U.S. every year notwithstanding routine searches and thousands of illegal immigrants somehow end up on ships that have been “inspected by the relevant port authorities in the nations from whence the ships departed.” **

I’m not saying there isn’t any Iranian money in Gaza - but it’s interesting to note that Qassam rockets are assembled in a ramshackle manner on site with readily available components - and have killed a grand total of one person since January 2009 - compare this to the thousand killed in Israel’s offensives against the Gaza Strip. If Iran was such a big fund-raiser, wouldn’t we see glamorous Iranian rockets lining up on the Gaza frontier, against the glamorous American and British ones on the Israeli side? ** So, okay, ignore what Cyprus and the U.S. military said they found on an Iranian ship bound for Gaza. Unfortunately for Iran and Hamas, the Israeli blockade does seem to be relatively effective.**

I believe the right to resist is sometimes necessary. I’m sure we all would have supported the French Resistance, or the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, or the Russian partisans. The action carried out on the boat did not seriously injure any Israeli soldier, the passengers only aimed to prevent the boat and its cargo from being illegally seized with sticks and stones. Israel responded to this by the slaying of civilians with machine guns. ** Totally inappropriate comparison. This is more like MS-13 resisting a police search for narcotics and weapons.**

Mairead Corrigan is an Irish Catholic activist who campaigned for the peaceful resolution of the troubles in Northern Ireland. She received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1976 along side Betty Williams, and was awarded with the Pacem in Terris award by HH John Paul II in 1990. She’s active in campaigning for the rights of oppressed people throughout the world, and involved with the Irish pro-life group ‘Consistent Life Ethic’.
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Just goes to show how a well-meaning person can end up supporting the wrong kind of people. Neville Chamberlin thought he could trust Hitler, too, and I’m sure he really thought he had brought peace to Europe by serving Hitler’s purpose.

Again, Yasser Arafat also won the Nobel Peace Prize, and a more rotten man never lived. Even Hamas would agree with that. Henry Kissinger won it for selling out the South Vietnamese. Barack Obama won it for absolutely nothing and he even admitted it.

WHEN are you going to explain the Hamas Charter that calls for the killing of all Jews? I have been waiting for that explanation. I’ll bet it’s in that Hamas Handbook for Fooling Westerners. Probably in some of the earliest pages.
 
Just a few things from the Hamas Charter. I particularly enjoy the part about the Rotary Clubs and the Lions Clubs being part of the “Jewish Conspiracy”. This garbage is worthy of Hitler, Himmler or Goebbels. People who are not supporters of Hamas already should read this. Look it up yourself. Don’t take my word for it. Read how contemptuously they treat international peace efforts. They’re not interested in it. They just want to kill Jews; probably Christians as well because, as they say, Palestine is “intended” only for Muslims. This is their “Constitution”. This is what Hamas is all about, in their own words.

"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian

movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is

Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of

Palestine.’ (Article 6)

On the Destruction of Israel:
'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.’ (Preamble)

The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:
'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one

can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.’

(Article 11)

'Palestine is an Islamic land… Since this is the case, the

Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem

wherever he may be.’ (Article 13)

The Call to Jihad:
'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the

individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews’ usurpation,

it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.’ (Article 15)

'Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses

everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the

call of duty, loudly proclaiming: ‘Hail to Jihad!’. This cry will

reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is

achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah’s victory comes about.’

(Article 33)

Rejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:
'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement… Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam… There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.’ (Article 13)

Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:
'Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle

[against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The

Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar

agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

…Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason,

and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act.’ (Article 32)

Anti-Semitic Incitement:
'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and

kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the

rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind

me, come and kill him.’ (Article 7)

'The enemies have been scheming for a long time … and have

accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money,

they took control of the world media… With their money they stirred

revolutions in various parts of the globe… They stood behind the

French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the

revolutions we hear about… With their money they formed secret

organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions -

which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies

and carry out Zionist interests… "
 
Ridgerunner said:
WHEN are you going to explain the Hamas Charter that calls for the killing of all Jews? I have been waiting for that explanation. I’ll bet it’s in that Hamas Handbook for Fooling Westerners. Probably in some of the earliest pages.
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As I wrote at the top of the page - you must have missed this.

Sir Jeremy Greenstock, former British Ambassador to the United Nations, former Joint-Chair of the Coaltion Provisional Authority in Iraq, noted that the document referred to as Hamas’s charter was “drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some twenty years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006”.
 
Having read the above, is it any wonder Israelis insist on inspecting ships bound for Gaza? Is it not deeply suspicious that those on board, including some western sympathizers with Hamas, would cause a “media event”? The purpose is to destroy Israel. The Nazis used to blame Jews for everything too, and we saw, toward the end of WWII, what their ultimate purpose was.

Israelis have no illusions about the fate Hamas has in store for them. Their own people suffered it once, and they should not be blamed for wanting to prevent Hamas’ expressed desire to repeat the holocaust.
 
O_Duirnin said:
As I wrote at the top of the page - you must have missed this.

Sir Jeremy Greenstock, former British Ambassador to the United Nations, former Joint-Chair of the Coaltion Provisional Authority in Iraq, noted that the document referred to as Hamas’s charter was “drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some twenty years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006”.
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:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: It’s still the charter of Hamas, which they have not renounced. You have not explained it away.

Let’s see what a few more Hamas folks have had to say more recently. If they can’t get past this kind of thing in their effort to seem less than murderous to the West, there really isn’t a whole lot that can be said in their favor.

Imam Yousif al-Zahar of Hamas said in his sermon at the Katib Wilayat mosque in Gaza that “Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing.” Ref IHT 1 April 08

Sheik Yunus al-Astal, a Hamas legislator and imam, in a column in the weekly newspaper Al Risalah in 2008 discussed a Koranic verse suggesting that “suffering by fire is the Jews’ destiny in this world and the next.” Astal concluded "Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews.Ref IHT 1 April 08

“We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity” stated Hamas leader Fathi Hammad in Gaza on Friday January 2nd 2009 - ref – BBC 2 January 09

In a sermon aired on Hamas’ Al-Aqsa television, cleric Yunis Al Astal stated, "Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam.
“I believe that our children, or our grandchildren, will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and, Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them”

He maintained that Rome would become, "“an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread though Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, even Eastern Europe.” Ref- Fox 14 Apr. 2008
 
Poco said:
But you have obviously missed the point. The “Palestinians” do not seem to be using any of their “aid money” to care for the people, only to buy weapons to attack Israel.
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“…do not seem” is hardly proof that all their money from the West is going for weapons with which to attack “Israel.”
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
“…do not seem” is hardly proof that all their money from the West is going for weapons with which to attack “Israel.”
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I’m inclined to agree with Rich, strange to tell. 🙂 I have seen films of street scenes in Gaza, and the people seem remarkably well fed, well dressed, drive cars, etc. To my knowledge there is not much in the way of productivity in Gaza since Hamas has cut its people off from the “industrial heartland” of the Levant, which is Israel; a place where they were formerly employed. Interestingly, during Clinton’s administration, there was a plan to develop, of all things, a string of resorts in Gaza. The idea was to build hotels, casinos, all the places wealthy Muslims like to go to. The PLO gunmen would provide the “muscle” to keep the patrons safe. Gazans would provide the goods and services. Israel was to provide the water and electricity and technical knowhow. The U.S. and Saudi Arabia provided a great deal of money.

It all might have worked, except that Arafat stole the money and put it in foreign banks. The Palestinian Authority ultimately worked out a deal with his widow to recover some of it. But that really was the beginning of the end for the PA in Gaza. It couldn’t perform.

Some of that money is still around. Sure is.

Going to have to go to other things now. One hopes no one will do a “Hamas” and shoot me in the back. I’ll see in the morning. I know Rich won’t. He’s a misled liberal, but he’s not a back-shooter. Besides, I agreed with him for once. 🙂
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
“…do not seem” is hardly proof that all their money from the West is going for weapons with which to attack “Israel.”
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Well, if anyone can show me if any (and if so, how much) is going to hospitals, schools, care for the poor, infrastructure or any other humanitarian purposes, I be glad to see it.
 
Monte_RCMS said:
When Israel pulled out of Gaza, they left behind a whole hydroponic farm industry. The FIRST thing the Gaza-ites did was to break all the glass in the greenhouses.
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Not exactly. The Israeli farmers dismantled and hauled off about half of the green houses.
nytimes.com/2005/07/15/international/middleeast/15mideast.html

But yes, extensive looting of the remaining greenhouses happened.
msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/

And ongoing thievery threatened the operation of the greenhouses months later. But so did the reduced water supply and the lack of a market in Israel.
boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/10/31/greenhouse_project_endangered_in_gaza/
 
Ridgerunner said:
Going to have to go to other things now. One hopes no one will do a “Hamas” and shoot me in the back. I’ll see in the morning. I know Rich won’t. He’s a misled liberal, but he’s not a back-shooter. Besides, I agreed with him for once. 🙂
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👍

And any time you have to leave a bar with a broken bottle in one hand and a knife in the other, you can have my back; I’ll be holding the same. ;)😃
 
O_Duirnin said:
You weren’t talking about one person, but you seem quite happy to use ‘Left’ as a dirty word to discredit genuine supporters of the Palestinian cause.
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the Palestinian cause is to wipe out every last Jew out of the Middle East (like Hamas, or HeSSbollah) - the left is very supportive of that, and I oppose that.

Self-defense: Not for Jews or anyone else, says the Left.
 
TechieJustin said:
It has nothing to do with defense those are two completely different issues. The Right is run by evangelical christians who believe Iraael must be protected at all costs - after all the Jews are “Gods chosen people.”
The left has no such beliefs. This is one area where Catholicism and the left agree - Jews are NOT Gods chosen people.
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However, Catholicism denounces racism and bigotry, which is what Hamas and HeSSbollah are all about - wiping out every last Jew out of the Middle East.

I am against their “final solution”
 
This story reminds me of Iraq. We spent billions building or rebuilding infrastructural projects for the Iraqis. After we turn it over to them, most of the projects are either abandoned, looted, or sat empty. We’ve got to stop giving handouts to these people. The reason most oil rich Arab countries are modern is because they hire foreigners to run the country for them. If I continue, I might get banned.
Dale_M said:
Not exactly. The Israeli farmers dismantled and hauled off about half of the green houses.
nytimes.com/2005/07/15/international/middleeast/15mideast.html

But yes, extensive looting of the remaining greenhouses happened.
msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/

And ongoing thievery threatened the operation of the greenhouses months later. But so did the reduced water supply and the lack of a market in Israel.
boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/10/31/greenhouse_project_endangered_in_gaza/
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BobCatholic said:
However, Catholicism denounces racism and bigotry, which is what Hamas and HeSSbollah are all about - wiping out every last Jew out of the Middle East.

I am against their “final solution”
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That is the crux of the issue here. Israel has been fighting for its existence for decades. If Hamas and Hezbollah stopped trying to wipe out the Jews, then we might have some peace. But trying to wipe out the Jews is what they’re all about - their raison d’etre. Israel has the will to fight for its existence. The question I have is why does the left in Europe and America hate Israel?

Ishii
 
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BobCatholic:
the Palestinian cause is to wipe out every last Jew out of the Middle East (like Hamas, or HeSSbollah) - the left is very supportive of that, and I oppose that.

Self-defense: Not for Jews or anyone else, says the Left.
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The use of character substitutions in proper names (Amerikkans, Demonrats etc.) isn’t allowed under forum rules. I think HeSSbollah would fall into this category.

Firstly - Jews do not equal the Israeli state. You have been told this time and time again, but you continue to ignore it. There were several Jewish members of this convoy, and more Jewish passengers (including an 85-year-old Holocaust survivor) are on their way from Malta in the Irish-flagged MV Rachel Corrie as we speak. The Palestinians are aware of this - indeed, I mentioned earlier a Hamas elected representative who wanted to emphasise this to the Palestinian youth as much as possible. The so-called ‘Hamas Charter’ has been described by a leading British diplomat as out of use.

In the 1940s, the SS Exodus, a ship full of European Jewish immigrants, attempted to break the British blockade of Palestine, and was forcibly boarded by British soldiers off the Palestinian coast. When the immigrants realised they were to be deported back to France, they staged a hunger strike at the port of Marseille, refusing to leave the ship. If the passengers aboard the Challenger 1 or the Mavi Marmara had done this to the IDF, they would have been dragged off kicking and screaming. I’m sure we all would have supported the right to self-defence of Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto - what we dispute is the use of deadly force against civilians armed with sticks who posed no real threat to any of the Israeli commandos.

For the fellow that mentioned statements made on various TV stations, I’m sure he’s familiar with Fox News in his own country. Fox News is owned by a great supporter of the Republican Party there, and a supporter of the Conservative Party here. Yet the anti-Islamic views held by some on that channel clearly don’t represent the majority of these parties. The Tories is Britain have several members in Parliament who’re practising Muslims, and William Hague made an excellent condemnation of Israel’s ‘deplorable’ actions. The BBC is owned by the British Government, and its editorial line usually reflects that of the Government in power. Yet it allowed the fascist leader Nick Griffin to speak on Question Time - does that mean Nick Griffin represents the British Government?
 
Is the MV Rachel Corrie named after a Leftist American who got ran over by an ISF armorized CAT D11 dozer?
 
MugenOne said:
Is the MV Rachel Corrie named after a Leftist American who got ran over by an ISF armorized CAT D11 dozer?
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I’m not sure if Rachel Corrie was a Leftist, but the ship was named after her in memory.
The ship has been renamed the MV Rachel Corrie, in memory of the 23-year-old solidarity activist crushed to death in 2003 by an Israeli military bulldozer as she attempted to prevent the demolition of a Palestinian home in Gaza.
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freegaza.org/en/home/56-news/1164-introducing-the-mv-rachel-corrie

The MV Rachel Corrie is about two days from Gaza, and the crew expects to be boarded by the Israelis.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/northern_ireland/10212345.stm
 
MugenOne said:
Is the MV Rachel Corrie named after a Leftist American who got ran over by an ISF armorized CAT D11 dozer?
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As near as I can tell, Rachel Corrie was a sacrifice to the Islamic cause. The poor woman was part of a group trying to stop Israeli bulldozers. Due to her position and the shielding of the driver, the driver didn’t see her and ran over her. She was put in harm’s way by those who were handling the protest. A totally senseless death, and for what? Doubtless, out of an excess of the kind of romanticism the left often engenders in the young and naive, she thought she was doing some kind of good. Her handlers probably didn’t directly intend her death at that particular moment, though their actions were certainly careless of her life and that of others. But her handlers certainly seized on the result of their own wrong in order to make a “martyr” out of her. She could rightly be described as a martyr in a way; a martyr to the ambitions of Hamas.

It is totally disgusting to me that her tragic, but absolutely senseless death is used by these thugs to further their cause. It shows how little human life and human decency mean to them, in reality.
 
Ridgerunner said:
As near as I can tell, Rachel Corrie was a sacrifice to the Islamic cause. The poor woman was part of a group trying to stop Israeli bulldozers. Due to her position and the shielding of the driver, the driver didn’t see her and ran over her. She was put in harm’s way by those who were handling the protest. A totally senseless death, and for what? Doubtless, out of an excess of the kind of romanticism the left often engenders in the young and naive, she thought she was doing some kind of good. Her handlers probably didn’t directly intend her death at that particular moment, though their actions were certainly careless of her life and that of others. But her handlers certainly seized on the result of their own wrong in order to make a “martyr” out of her. She could rightly be described as a martyr in a way; a martyr to the ambitions of Hamas.

It is totally disgusting to me that her tragic, but absolutely senseless death is used by these thugs to further their cause. It shows how little human life and human decency mean to them, in reality.
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theaugeanstables.com/al-durah-affair-the-dossier/guide-to-al-durah-recent-posts-till-september-21-2006/

Without a leftist press tugging at the heartstrings of Western leftist, Palestinians would have got on with their lives long ago.

It is all just a melodrama.
 
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