Deaths as Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

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I tend to agree with David Frum rather than those who think it is all about the inalienable right for Gazans to play with their Barbies or make their paper hats.

Hamas loses, because the blockade stands.

Obama loses, because his party is maintaining Americas traditional positon vis-a-vis Israel and Obama has had to stand back.

And an increasingly Islamist Turkish government wins. They have their Turkish blood now, a prime argument that can be made in their battle against the pro-Israeli Turkish army.

Secular Turkey is waning. It is the same demographics that is deciding Turkey’s future too now.
 
There is no starvation or great want of material goods in Gaza.
People are still living with their families in the bombed out rubble of what was their homes because Israel wont allow cement, tar, or glass to be brought into the country.

As for no starvation, it is widely known and acknowledged there is serious food insecurity and many children and adults are suffering from chronic malnutrician.

Something like 60% of the land to the north where farming was most intensive was blitzed, not to mention wholesale destruction of farming establishments, greenhouses, poultry farms, and so on.

Somethign like 30% or more of Gaza’s most productive land is now within the buffer zone. Farmers cant even get to their land to farm anymore.

Oh, and tractor parts, among others, are on the banned list of goods not allowed into Gaza.
 
With all the tirades against Israel acts of violence on a flotilla carrying "humanitarian"envoys and “peaceful” activies, I would like to post a question.

What is the TRUE purpose of this flotilla if the total amount of supplies transported, 10,000 tons in all, is less than the weekly average (YES WEEKLY AVERAGE) amount of goods transferred by Israel into Gaza?

**Humanitarian Aid Transferred from Israel to Gaza in 2010, as of May 8, 2010: **
In 2010, 230,690 tons of humanitarian aid has been transferred from Israel into Gaza through the Israel-Gaza goods crossings
More than 6.5 million gallons (25 million liters) of heavy duty diesel fuel for Gaza’s power station has been transferred from Israel to Gaza
More than 12,000 tons of cooking oil has been transferred into Gaza
6,354 Gazans have entered Israel on medical grounds
86 truckloads of flowers and strawberries have been exported from Gaza into Israel
Because your list is only a fraction of what is needed. Read the link in my signature. It’s about as concise a statement of Israeli policy as there is.
 
What is the moral justification for having any list of banned foods, drinks, sanitary products, medicines, books and educational equipment, livestock and seeds, in the first place? Or at all?

If the Israelis seek only to prevent arms smuggling (and apparently not very successfully despite the blockade), why have they a stated government policy of ‘Putting the Palestinians on a diet’ and implementing that policy with an apparently arbitrary list of banned foods, medicines and basic educational equipment?

Those Christians and others pointing out the injustice of this policy and advocating for its abandonment have for many years now been ignored, denigrated, accused of supporting Hamas or of being anti-semitic. Short of taking the action that they did this week, which at least has brought this policy to the world’s attention, what would you suggest they should have done?
Unless you can detangle Israeli concerns over survival from unnecessary punitive concerns, I doubt the Israelis will really consider what you want. There is never one reason why something is done. When it comes to policy, there is rarely even one sole person who comes up with it. There are always multiple people working on it, and is implemented for a number of reasons. Unless you can show some deference to the position of the Israelis, and break down what is legitament and what is not, I think you might as well argue with a stone wall. At this point, I doubt the Israelis will listen to a lot of people, especially once they concluded that what they are asking will seriously comprimise their security. May be better to stray into the illegal and be alive, than trust the legal system and be dead.
 
A platitude that in no way reflects the reality of the situation. Israel has no worry whatsoever that Hamas and Fatah coul defeat it and destroy it.
One can lose a war, and win every battle, it would be pure hubris to not believe it.
 
Paper, school books, toys, medicines, medical equipment, cement…
School children are subjected to this kind of learning from their elders… The only paper they actually do have are hate speeches and books that tell Jews are pigs. http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/latesthamaskids2.jpg

and, here is how they use their medical aid…
Israel Gives Medicine. Arabs Give Back Explosives.!



Cement and steel are supposed to be used to build houses, bridges and roads for peace. However these bags of cement , bars of steel are being used for underground tunnels, ammunition bunkers and command centers on the sole purpose of initiating attacks on Israel by hamas.

So should Israel stand and ignore the movement of these materials around, when past atrocities tell them otherwise? Its common sense to banned this things when you know its going to be used against you by your “very freindly and respectful” neighbor.

Here is one use of the steel pipes:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
What is the moral justification for having any list of banned foods, drinks, sanitary products, medicines, books and educational equipment, livestock and seeds, in the first place? Or at all?

If the Israelis seek only to prevent arms smuggling (and apparently not very successfully despite the blockade), why have they a stated government policy of ‘Putting the Palestinians on a diet’ and implementing that policy with an apparently arbitrary list of banned foods, medicines and basic educational equipment?

Those Christians and others pointing out the injustice of this policy and advocating for its abandonment have for many years now been ignored, denigrated, accused of supporting Hamas or of being anti-semitic. Short of taking the action that they did this week, which at least has brought this policy to the world’s attention, what would you suggest they should have done?
Condemed Hamas, reject all its doctrines of hate, question their hate policies against Israel, voice out that Israel has the right to exist.

And on bringing peace efforts, try to choose a better humanitarian backer who has no history of funding terrorist organizations. And the most important thing, be truly peaceful when you are an Envoy of peace and humanitarian missions.
 
Because your list is only a fraction of what is needed. Read the link in my signature. It’s about as concise a statement of Israeli policy as there is.
Code:
Well again the arabs in gaza voted for a leadership that vows to annihilate the Jewish state from the face of the Earth. I think the only people who can be blamed here are the people who put this on themselves. Cause and Effect comes into play here.
I hate to say this, but the arabs in gaza received what they deserve.
 
Reply to Daryl1958…

"
Does being a Christian entail that we not have a point of view?"
Of course not. But I do think that being a Christian, and probably more especially a Catholic Chritian, does mean that we are to have honestly informed points of view, not points of view controlled by our own biases. We are to use our God given faculty of reason and free will to come to the best, most fair and informed, “point of view” that we can, and always acknowledge that it is our personal opinion. Sin can be of thought, of word, and of deed, and often expressing our points of view leads to serious sin.

“Oops, is that the sound of Archie taking a side”

The only side that Archie wants to take is the side of
the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.

“Hmm, so it is kind of like a conspiracy being staged by the international 'banker gangsters”

The world operates on conspiracies. There is one overarching conspiracy and that is the Conspiracy against God.

“con” Latin for with
“spirare” Latin verb for “to breathe”

A conspiracy is when two or more people “breathe together or with each other”, that is, they “think alike” and plan together to accomplish some usually evil and/or unlawful or end.
One of the top conspiracies in this world is the establishment of a one world government, a “new world order.”

I have been trying to search out and understand the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching on one world government and from what I have learned over the years, I have to say that I think that teaching, albeit unofficial teaching, is wrong. The Church seems to say that it is possible for a world governing body to exist and for there to be individual fully sovereign nation states operating at the same time within that world body, and further the church seems to imply that the world body will afford true freedom for individuals and that the general nature of the world body will be benevolent. I think such a world body can be nothing other than a Satanic death and slavery system.

"the moneyed elites, eh?
Now I wonder who those could be? "

I very much appreciate the writings, escpecially the book “Jewish Revolutionary Spirit”, of Dr. E. Michael Jones, of CultureWars.com. He is a Roman Catholic scholar that has tried to provide some open honest discussion of “the Jews” and a framework with which to understand all of this total deliberate confusion on this subject.

Here is a review of this book…
catholicintl.com/articles/The%20Revolutionary%20Jew%20Review.pdf
by Dr. Robert Sungenis

Here is rebuttal of some of the statements of CatholicsForIsrael also by Dr. Sungenis.

catholicintl.com/articles/The%20Revolutionary%20Jew%20Review.pdf

Be aware of
the long-standing directive from Pope Gregory the Great in the sixth century, otherwise known as the Sicut Iudeis non, which states quite simply: “no one has the right to harm Jews or disrupt their worship services, but the Jews have, likewise, no right to
corrupt the faith or morals of Christians or subvert Christian societies.”
 
So should Israel stand and ignore the movement of these materials around, when past atrocities tell them otherwise?
Paper? school books? toys? medicines? - exactly how are these a threat to Israeli security? Oh, I forgot - papercuts :rolleyes:

The list of things that Israel bans from Gaza is entirely arbitrary. For example, it permits cinnamon but forbids coriander. Is coriander inherently more dangerous than cinnamon? Again, and for example, it permits tea and coffee, but not chocolate; mineral water but not fruit juice; tinned meat but not fresh meat, some medicines but not, for example, insulin Here is a list of items that Israel allowed into Gaza since the beginning of last year. Before this, none of these items were permitted. Shoes and clothes have only been permitted since last March. The licence to import these items can be (and is often) revoked by Israel, without warning or explanation.
 
Condemed Hamas, reject all its doctrines of hate, question their hate policies against Israel, voice out that Israel has the right to exist.

And on bringing peace efforts, try to choose a better humanitarian backer who has no history of funding terrorist organizations. And the most important thing, be truly peaceful when you are an Envoy of peace and humanitarian missions.
Just curious and completely off topic, is English your first language?
 
There is none.

It is collective punishment on a population, and the persecution of a people and that is illegal.

Mind you, so is the daily infringement of Lebanon’s air space, giving arab villages one hour of water a day while the rest gets diverted to illegal settlements etc etc etc

Like any of that seems to matter either 🤷
Not to mention the forgery of several countries’ passports, the theft of their citizens’ identities and the subsequent endangement of those citizens when travelling on their legitimate passports. But that’s for another thread.
 
Just curious and completely off topic, is English your first language?
It doesn’t matter, because he makes more sense than many on this topic.

To all Hamas supporters, do you really think that they would put away their bombs and guns and play nice with us after Israel is neutralized?

Golda Meier once said, “We will only have peace, when the Palestinians decide to love their children more than they hate Jews”.

God Save Israel!!!
 
I just call it like I see it. I have a sneaking suspicion that some of the people on this board wish that Israel would just go away, (vis-a -vis Helen Thomas). BTW have you ever wondered why Israel get so much scrutiny, but Genocide in the Congo and the Sudan, and formerly Rawanda. nary a peep from the “World Community” There is no sense of perspective, or could it be that certain interests get more mileage by screaming about all of Israel’s supposed atrocities and turning attention away from real problems.
 
I dont think that the people being killed, really care about what did Belgium did 100 years ago, what you said sounds like a 2nd year political science student would think. I am sorry about what happened to your grandfather in WW II my uncles saw some pretty horrific things too. My wifes Grandfather in the Philippines was bayoneted by the Japanese occupiers after being forced to dig his own grave.

I have never heard of a people hated as much as the Jews, They are hated on the left, as well as the Far right. I cant say I blame them for being heavy handed when they have to be.
 
The Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs for the occupied Palestinian territory (OCHoPT) was established in late 2000 by the United Nations as a response to the deteriorating humanitarian situation in the West Bank and Gaza caused by military incursions and closures…
Interesting sets of numbers. And exactly how many of these were civilians “intentionally targeted”. And who intentionally targeted the civilians?
I would sum it up as: if it were up to Israel, there would be no war. If it was up to Hamas and Fatah, there would be no Israel.
Sums up a very complex situation quite well

So, is Israel just supposed to sit back and let rockets and mortars be fired into Israel and not do anything? Is Israel not supposed to defend itself because “somebody might get hurt”?
 
I have never heard of a people hated as much as the Jews, They are hated on the left, as well as the Far right. I cant say I blame them for being heavy handed when they have to be.
Not the Jews, but Israelis.

I don’t see much anti-semitism in the U.S. and I know support for Israel even among American Jews is not universal.

I wouldn’t celebrate heavy-handedness in any nation’s treatment of its minorities, q.v. Russia.
 
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