Debaptism?

[ThomasToo]

The Bible has to be read with context in mind. Jesus was speaking to one specific person; not to the multitudes, and not to the disciples.

That one individual was being called by Jesus to renounce his fortune; Jesus did not require this of either Judas or Matthew, nor of the four women who followed after Him and the disciples - indeed, we are told that it was a virtue of theirs, to be rich and to supply for the needs of Jesus and the Twelve whenever they found the opportunity to do so.

Again, I would have thought that a theologian would have noticed these details.

Moral theologian; we can argue about suicide, reproductive rights, just war, animal rights &c until the cows come home but I studiously avoided most of the other topics in the department.

 

[ThomasToo]

Have you read JPII’s Fides et Ratio?

Not in several years. The nickle summary I read just now (because at the moment the whole thing is a bit lengthy but I can put it on the reading list), I would agree to an extent. I don’t think faithless reason gets us to relativism but it certainly brings us to nihilism.

 

[jmcrae]

Moral theologian; we can argue about suicide, reproductive rights, just war, animal rights &c until the cows come home but I studiously avoided most of the other topics in the department.

Ah, I see. Do they send you to Bible Study classes, at all? Because they probably should.

 

[ThomasToo]

Ah, I see. Do they send you to Bible Study classes, at all? Because they probably should.

Nope. I had to take Introduction to the Study of Religion (or Theological Methods), Introduction to the Christian Moral Life, 3 morality/ethics classes and either 5 electives or 3 electives and a thesis (I chose the later).

I have a quote from Firefly that seems relevant here but I fear it’d get me in trouble but it ends ‘woah, good Bible.’ =

 

[joandarc2008]

I read it put this way once; Each week, millions and millions of upper middle class American citizens put on expensive clothes, load themselves into SUVs and drive past
Homeless shelters,orphanages,prisons,missions, andhalf way houses on their way to a very expensive and nice church where somebody tells them how to be more like Jesus. This is not the Church, I know, but I also speak more of Christinaity writ large which includes megachurches and Fred Phelps’s Westboro Baptist Church.

Oh and BTW - the Westboro Baptist Church is actually not really a Church - it is a group of lawyers that got together for a cause and called themselves that so they could do what they are currently doing and have certain freedoms and tax exempt status. Oh, and yeah I am soldier who thinks it should be illegal to protest at a soldiers funeral.

 

[ThomasToo]

Oh and BTW - the Westboro Baptist Church is actually not really a Church - it is a group of lawyers that got together for a cause and called themselves that so they could do what they are currently doing and have certain freedoms and tax exempt status. Oh, and yeah I am soldier who thinks it should be illegal to protest at a soldiers funeral.

I don’t doubt his faith in what he’s saying (though Poe’s Law always occurs to me when I think about him. He–allegedly–believes in the same Jesus you do.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t doubt his faith in what he’s saying (though Poe’s Law always occurs to me when I think about him. He–allegedly–believes in the same Jesus you do.

And how is this Jesus’ fault?

 

[ThomasToo]

And how is this Jesus’ fault?

It’s not, well I suppose in a deterministic way one could argue that it is but that’s not my point. I was saying that Jesus would not recognize contemporary Christianity and I think the WBC is an example of that.

 

[jmcrae]

It’s not, well I suppose in a deterministic way one could argue that it is but that’s not my point. I was saying that Jesus would not recognize contemporary Christianity and I think the WBC is an example of that.

That Jesus wouldn’t recognize the WBC is totally beside the point, since He doesn’t claim to have founded the WBC. The only thing Jesus claims to have established is the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. Everything else is not His problem, really.

 

[ThomasToo]

That Jesus wouldn’t recognize the WBC is totally beside the point, since He doesn’t claim to have founded the WBC. The only thing Jesus claims to have established is the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. Everything else is not His problem, really.

I don’t think Jesus is her to make that claim to to be fair you (and the Church) are the one claiming Jesus established the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. And, when they’re waving about your (insofar as the Catholic Church selected the texts to be included) Bible and claim devotion to him they are. At least in my (not so) humble opinion.

 

[cctabb]

Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I have to take my daughter to art class, and we had to work some on the science fair project.

I was not one second, I was just asking essentially ‘how much waiting is enough?’ I am not upset by your request and it is certainly valid.

How can one think TOO much about the fundamental underpinnings of the universe? I think about everything, all the time, this could be why I never get enough sleep. This is one of the fundamental problems I have with ALL religion; I don’t like faith, as an intellectual principle it is (severely) lacking. I understand assumptions for numerous reasons but then one always has to go back and ask ‘what did I import into my data by these assumptions?’ How is Thomas the bad guy on Easter Sunday; he asked the question most reasonable people would ask. For example, if you told me you could fly I’d ask you to show me, I don’t think that’s bad… do you?

I said 5 years in hopes that you’d marry and have a child. (I’m assuming that you are in college and not married.) Honestly, I think you should wait until your first kid comes along. Trust me I know that event changes a lot in one’s life - even one’s faith. BTDT

Faith is not an intellectual endeavor. It is a mystery. We are not supposed to know how it works. We are simply to believe.

I know it is hard. (I have to get the good drugs from the doctor once every six months or so because of the insomnia.) Try to shut all that stuff out of your mind for a few minutes. Practice until you get up to 3 or 4 minutes. Then you can open your mind to God, and quite possibly find the faith you have been searching for with the intellect.

Good luck. And if you don’t mind, I’ll pray that the Holy Spirit fill your heart and mind so you can find your faith.

 

[ThomasToo]

Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I have to take my daughter to art class, and we had to work some on the science fair project.

No worries, I hope you’re having fun.

Faith is not an intellectual endeavor. It is a mystery. We are not supposed to know how it works. We are simply to believe.

This is probably the biggest problem I have with the Church–and religion more generally–faith (read: religion) is a way to answer fundamental questions about the nature and origin of the universe, absent questions of ethics and eschatology. How can that not be an intellectual endeavor? Frankly, I have always been unable to believe that we ought not to understand how the world works.

 

[cctabb]

I think you are confusing faith and religion.

Do you believe in God? That is faith.

Do you believe in the Real Presence? Infallibility of the Pope? Only men can be priests? Those are religion, specifically the religion you were baptized into.

There are plenty of people who have faith, but no religion. That is not atheism. It is more along the lines of agnosticism.

a way to answer fundamental questions about the nature and origin of the universe, absent questions of ethics and eschatology. How can that not be an intellectual endeavor?

Thinking of the answers to those fundamental questions is an intellectual endeavor. Those that believe in and have faith in God believe He had something to do with the nature and origin of the universe. Those with faith can see God in the science.

Personally I believe in the Big Bang theory, old Earth, and evolution. But in my faith I can see God in each of them. And to tell you the truth, it used to be that I didn’t.

In all your searching, have you ever prayed for faith?

 

[ThomasToo]

I think you are confusing faith and religion.

Do you believe in God? That is faith.

Do you believe in the Real Presence? Infallibility of the Pope? Only men can be priests? Those are religion, specifically the religion you were baptized into.

There are plenty of people who have faith, but no religion. That is not atheism. It is more along the lines of agnosticism.

Belief in in Papal Infallibility or transubstantiation is about faith. They may be tenents of a religion but they are still faith claims. Faith, n. 2: strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. The line between magic and religion is also not as neat as we’d like to believe (see writings of Bronisław Malinowski for more on this issue).

Agnosticism is the supposition that ‘the existence (or non-existance) of supernatural entities (i.e. gods) cannot be proven.’ There is nothing contradictory in being an agnostic theist (one who believes in a deity while believing it is impossible to prove its existence) or a gnostic atheist (one who believes the are no deities and that such a fact can be proven).

Thinking of the answers to those fundamental questions is an intellectual endeavor. Those that believe in and have faith in God believe He had something to do with the nature and origin of the universe. Those with faith can see God in the science.

Personally I believe in the Big Bang theory, old Earth, and evolution. But in my faith I can see God in each of them. And to tell you the truth, it used to be that I didn’t.

In all your searching, have you ever prayed for faith?

I have, and as in all the other prayers I’ve ever offered nothing came of it–just as the prayers of healing from every amputee have gone unanswered. I see the opposite, in the ‘war of nature… famine and death’ (Darwin) I see the terrible and painful state of the world and wonder how an all-loving god allow such a system to come about and that’s all prior to humans stepping onto the scene.

Honest question, and this is where I have the issue. If we don’t need God to create the earth and all its myriad lifeforms then metaphysically I don’t see the necessity. If we need a god (NB not God in the Christian sense) to originally create the universe (unmoved mover argument from Aristotle and Aquinas) then the question then has to be ‘what created this god?’ and if the answer is ‘it has always existed’ then why do we need–in the ontological sense–to create this god when we could just say ‘the universe has always existed’?

 

[cctabb]

Belief in in Papal Infallibility or transubstantiation is about faith. They may be tenents of a religion but they are still faith claims. Faith, n. 2: strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. The line between magic and religion is also not as neat as we’d like to believe (see writings of Bronisław Malinowski for more on this issue).

I’m going to end up reading Malinowski or at the very least researching him and his works so I can understand where you are coming from. But since we homeschool and tomorrow is Friday which means school, girl scouts and now the science fair I’m going to have to ask which type of magic are you referring to? Magic such as Earth magic that some pagans practice or magic like Merlin?

I can see where your Malinowski could equate the so-called Earth magic with religion. More than one person has tried to equate their paganness with Christianity.

Agnosticism is the supposition that ‘the existence (or non-existance) of supernatural entities (i.e. gods) cannot be proven.’ There is nothing contradictory in being an agnostic theist (one who believes in a deity while believing it is impossible to prove its existence) or a gnostic atheist (one who believes the are no deities and that such a fact can be proven).

Got that.

I have, and as in all the other prayers I’ve ever offered nothing came of it–just as the prayers of healing from every amputee have gone unanswered. I see the opposite, in the ‘war of nature… famine and death’ (Darwin) I see the terrible and painful state of the world and wonder how an all-loving god allow such a system to come about and that’s all prior to humans stepping onto the scene.

Have you stopped to think that maybe you answer has been to search more? My take on your situation: God knows you. He knows that you are searching more with the intellect than with the heart. And to feed that intellect you’ve been lead to this book and that writing and the other philosopher. You seem, to me, to be the type that has to know, but once you know with an absolute conviction you will never be swayed.

I’ll be surprised if you tell me that you have asked from the heart for nothing more than faith.

As for prayers of healing, famine and death. How many people have turned to God in the face of illness, destitution or on their death bed? As I said earlier, my faith deepened when my daughter was born. With all the things that could have gone wrong, and trust me I wasn’t much into being healthy back then, everything went right. I had a miracle and I was blessed. Then 4 years ago I developed a rare eye disease. I go around in public indoors and out like this guy. Under the shades I look like this one.

I pray every day and have for 4 years that God heals me. In his time I know He will. And if He doesn’t well, there is a reason for it. I’ll never know, but maybe the reason for it is so I can be at this place at this time and talking to you.

God’s reasons are not our own and we can not always understand that with our intellect. Especially when we see bad things happen that a loving and all powerful God could prevent.

Honest question, and this is where I have the issue. If we don’t need God to create the earth and all its myriad lifeforms then metaphysically I don’t see the necessity. If we need a god (NB not God in the Christian sense) to originally create the universe (unmoved mover argument from Aristotle and Aquinas) then the question then has to be ‘what created this god?’ and if the answer is ‘it has always existed’ then why do we need–in the ontological sense–to create this god when we could just say ‘the universe has always existed’?

Who said we did not need God to create the Earth, and all life? If the Big Bang happened with out God’s will than what was the point of the Big Bang? If life on Earth has evolved without God’s will than why are we here?

You are missing something in your little circle. What created God = God has always existed = the universe has always existed = God is the universe. The universe is not God. So the universe has not always existed.

It is getting late. My brain is shutting down. We could keep this going for days, but I’ll be busy most of the weekend. I’ll try to keep up with the thread.

Back to your original question and my original answer. Don’t do anything rash. Being debaptized is not necessary to leave the church. But if the door is locked when you find your answers it may be hard to find the key. I was where you are now - maybe not with the $10 words though. LOL

Keep searching and asking questions. I have faith that one day God will provide the answer you need. If you don’t mind I’ll pray for you to receive wisdom.

 

[ThomasToo]

I’m going to end up reading Malinowski or at the very least researching him and his works so I can understand where you are coming from. But since we homeschool and tomorrow is Friday which means school, girl scouts and now the science fair I’m going to have to ask which type of magic are you referring to? Magic such as Earth magic that some pagans practice or magic like Merlin?

I can see where your Malinowski could equate the so-called Earth magic with religion. More than one person has tried to equate their paganness with Christianity.

Neither. He was an anthropologist and studied primitive religio-magical ritualization. Is it magic or religion when a tribe does a given ritual to try to get it to rain? Is it a matter of their belief (such a ritual in itself brings the rain–magic or the ritual influences a god to bringing the rain–religion)? I don’t know anything about Malinowski’s personal beliefs but I don’t think he was any sort of pagan. (His wikipedia page)

Have you stopped to think that maybe you answer has been to search more? My take on your situation: God knows you. He knows that you are searching more with the intellect than with the heart. And to feed that intellect you’ve been lead to this book and that writing and the other philosopher. You seem, to me, to be the type that has to know, but once you know with an absolute conviction you will never be swayed.

I wouldn’t say I am never swayed but it takes evidence or solid reasoning to sway me. I would hope this is true for everyone though I doubt it is.

I’ll be surprised if you tell me that you have asked from the heart for nothing more than faith.

When I prayed I prayed for more than faith but at the death throws of my deconversion faith or evidence was all.

Who said we did not need God to create the Earth, and all life? If the Big Bang happened with out God’s will than what was the point of the Big Bang? If life on Earth has evolved without God’s will than why are we here?

You are missing something in your little circle. What created God = God has always existed = the universe has always existed = God is the universe. The universe is not God. So the universe has not always existed.

I know the universe is not God–I’m hardly a pantheist. And I’m not saying that chain of equalities holds, it clearly does not. I know this will be hard hard (I don’t mean to be patronizing, setting down our worldview and picking up another even for an intellectual exercise is incredibly difficult. I know I do) but try to think of the Big Bang absent Catholic ontology for a moment–a kind of Cartesian skepticism though I know it’s not quite that prolific.

We know the universe exists (and science shows us it began with a big bang) and it seems it must have come into being. It seems that since everything else we see around us has been created by something (chairs, people, lollipops &c) then the universe would need to be created by something. The creator of the universe, following this reasoning however, would need to be created. This cannot go on forever (i.e. there shouldn’t be a creator of the creator… of the creator of the universe) so we call the creator of the universe the uncaused cause of the universe and christen this entity God. It seems unnecessary, in an ontological sense, to create this creator if we can just as easily–again, in an ontological sense–assert that the universe was uncaused in the way we were claiming God was.

Back to your original question and my original answer. Don’t do anything rash. Being debaptized is not necessary to leave the church. But if the door is locked when you find your answers it may be hard to find the key. I was where you are now - maybe not with the $10 words though… Keep searching and asking questions.

Sorry about the vocabulary, I just have kind of come to talk like this. I always search and I always ask questions but at some point we end up always coming to the same conclusion. Imagine we began every day asking ‘what color is the sky this morning?’

It is getting late. My brain is shutting down. We could keep this going for days, but I’ll be busy most of the weekend. I’ll try to keep up with the thread

No worries, I’m replying in hopes you have time but family (science fair included) is more important than me–and I mean that without irony or spite. Thanks for talking with me.