Debaptism?

[jmcrae]

An easy one would be ‘Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me”’ (Matthew 19.21). Similar sentiments are found in Matthew 6:20 and Luke 12:33 and 16:9.

There’s also one of my personal favorites ‘If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be my disciple’ (Luke 14:26).

And - you find these too difficult to do? Or you think this means that all Christians are required to be homeless people (in which case, we become recipients of charity, rather than givers of charity, which kind of defeats the whole point) - or what?

 

[ThomasToo]

And no organization in the world does as much for the poor than the CC, so your point isn’t as strong as you think.

As respectfully as I can say this, when a man wearing a whole lot of gold sitting on a hand-carved marble chair preaches about the virtue of charity I get sick to my stomach. If those words left Jesus’s mouth wouldn’t his first question be ‘what he heck dude?’ (my Aramaic is rusty… read: nonexistent) And proceed to sell off much of the finery and livery of the Church?

And again, how does this invalidate the Church?

I got distracted and picked a greatest hit. Sorry…

There are others–many many others–but frankly they’re not germane. To be frank if you honestly think the Jesus, who ate with prostitutes and tax collectors, and owned–as I recall–nothing would be fine with what the Church has become I would be shocked.

I read it put this way once; Each week, millions and millions of upper middle class American citizens put on expensive clothes, load themselves into SUVs and drive past
Homeless shelters,orphanages,prisons,missions, andhalf way houses on their way to a very expensive and nice church where somebody tells them how to be more like Jesus. This is not the Church, I know, but I also speak more of Christinaity writ large which includes megachurches and Fred Phelps’s Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Hopefully this is the proper forum for this and I would like to state in advance that I do not mean to create scandal (in the technical or vernacular sense) or strife for the members of this forum with my question. I would also like to note that I’m not writing to seek moral or metaphysical judgments about my (lack of) faith as I know that is in

As a bit of background I was raised Catholic, attended a Catholic high school and university and have a masters in moral theology from a Catholic university. I lost my faith–if I ever had any which is a question I’ve never been able to fully answer but I don’t think I really did, I was questioning basic assertions of the faith since I was in sacramental preparation for my first Communion. I have self-identified as an atheist for several years and am, to the best of my understanding, latae sententiae excommunicated per canon 1364. I would like, however, to have my defection noted and to be no longer counted as amongst the faithful (this is for a variety of reasons I do not think or germane to or appropriate for this venue) and want to know the best/proper way to do this.

Do I write a letter to the church in which I was baptized or send them a form [edited]? A recent columnist in The Stranger wrote an open letter to his (former) bishop asking to be excommunicated [edited]is such a letter–sent only to my former bishop as I do not have column inches to fill or such an axe to grind–proper? Am I on a fools errand and will be counted as a non-practicing Catholic by the USCCB until my death? I hope not and your (name removed by moderator)ut and advice would be much appreciated.

Thank you in advance for your help and understanding.

Not possible any more than your can “de-born” yourself.

 

[crazzeto]

As respectfully as I can say this, when a man wearing a whole lot of gold sitting on a hand-carved marble chair preaches about the virtue of charity I get sick to my stomach. If those words left Jesus’s mouth wouldn’t his first question be ‘what he heck dude?’ (my Aramaic is rusty… read: nonexistent) And proceed to sell off much of the finery and livery of the Church?

Again, I will let Christ do the talking:
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=26&l=9&f=s#x

For this might have been sold for much, and given to the poor. 10 And Jesus knowing it, said to them: Why do you trouble this woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.

11 For the poor you have always with you: but me you have not always. 12 For she in pouring this ointment upon my body, hath done it for my burial. 13 Amen I say to you, wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, that also which she hath done, shall be told for a memory of her.

I got distracted and picked a greatest hit. Sorry…

There are others–many many others–but frankly they’re not germane. To be frank if you honestly think the Jesus, who ate with prostitutes and tax collectors, and owned–as I recall–nothing would be fine with what the Church has become I would be shocked.

I read it put this way once; Each week, millions and millions of upper middle class American citizens put on expensive clothes, load themselves into SUVs and drive past
Homeless shelters,orphanages,prisons,missions, andhalf way houses on their way to a very expensive and nice church where somebody tells them how to be more like Jesus. This is not the Church, I know, but I also speak more of Christinaity writ large which includes megachurches and Fred Phelps’s Westboro Baptist Church.

At least we agree that you choose very poorly on this scripture.

 

[jmcrae]

As respectfully as I can say this, when a man wearing a whole lot of gold sitting on a hand-carved marble chair preaches about the virtue of charity I get sick to my stomach.

So, to whom should he donate the chair, and what should that person do with it, if not sit on it?

At least the Pope makes use of the treasures he is given, rather than storing them away in vaults where no one can see them or enjoy the use of them.

 

[ThomasToo]

Thomas,

I’m really out of advice for your original question beyond “write to the bishop and see what he says.” But since the conversation has turned to other areas, do you mind if I ask how recent is your shift from faith to atheism?

I won’t try to argue you back into the faith. You have the educational background already. I would just say, from my personal experience, that what has made the difference for me hasn’t been the knowledge but the personal encounter with Christ. That is the source of my conviction. All the theology and metaphysics and what-have-you have bolstered my faith by removing intellectual obstacles, but the source of my faith is Jesus Himself. That’s something none of us here can really give you in a post.

I know you don’t believe in it anymore, but I’ll say a prayer for you nonetheless. If you ever feel up for it, please pray for me, too. I could use all the help I can get!

It was 3 years ago, after I applied to Ph.D programs in theology (I couldn’t bear it and dropped after my MA)… This came after a concerted attempt to believe including frequent Mass attendance, bible study, prayer group &c. I finally asked ‘is there a metaphysical necessity of a prime mover?’ and the rest was science (and certainly not silence, sorry Will). For me faith has always been a purely metaphysical/academic/intellectual affair. I never had that sort of personal experience you described despite much trying but I don’t see where personal experience gets us–vis-a-vis faith claims–since, for example, many Americans claim to have been abducted by aliens but we’d be hard pressed to believe them.

 

[lon]

That may have been a valid interpretation of Canon Law when the Commentary was written, but as of October 26, 2009, this is no longer the case. Look at Omnium in Mentem.

Thanks for the correction: I should have stated, “I am not a canon lawyer (nor do I play one on TV).” Law, including canon law, is no domain for amateurs.

Seriously, if one wants to formally leave the Church or has any other question relating to a serious, real-life issue, it seems to me the proper way is to consult a reliable source, such as a real canon lawyer in the case of a legal matter.

Using the internet in a general way to get some pointers as to where to find reliable information is fine, but I personally would not trust any information that I did not get from a reliable, competent source (and perhaps not even then, without a second opinion from another reliable, competent source).

There are serious, real-life consequences to formal acts such as leaving the Church. I speak as a former apostate myself (mercifully received back into the Church). Marriage is only one such real world state that can be affected. If one is going to do something important, it is really unwise to rely on unsubstantiated opinions from possibly unqualified people (however well-intentioned) that one may meet on the street, in a bar, or in an internet forum.​

Lon

 

[ThomasToo]

And - you find these too difficult to do? Or you think this means that all Christians are required to be homeless people (in which case, we become recipients of charity, rather than givers of charity, which kind of defeats the whole point) - or what?

Honestly, if one is trying to authentically follow the teachings of Jesus than yes. Christianity as preached by Jesus is at best unworkable and at works internally inconsistent (cf. Matthew 26.9 as quoted by crazzeto, Mary Magdeline and the oil that was worth–as I recall–300 gold pieces). It was a doomsday religion as evidenced, amongst other places, Matthew 24:30.

 

[ThomasToo]

So, to whom should he donate the chair, and what should that person do with it, if not sit on it?

At least the Pope makes use of the treasures he is given, rather than storing them away in vaults where no one can see them or enjoy the use of them.

Not donate, sell. The art and to a lesser extent properties are a bit more difficult but certinly much of the gold can be done away with.

 

[jmcrae]

It was 3 years ago, after I applied to Ph.D programs in theology (I couldn’t bear it and dropped after my MA)… This came after a concerted attempt to believe including frequent Mass attendance, bible study, prayer group &c. I finally asked ‘is there a metaphysical necessity of a prime mover?’ and the rest was science (and certainly not silence, sorry Will). For me faith has always been a purely metaphysical/academic/intellectual affair. I never had that sort of personal experience you described despite much trying but I don’t see where personal experience gets us–vis-a-vis faith claims–since, for example, many Americans claim to have been abducted by aliens but we’d be hard pressed to believe them.

That’s a pretty broad “we” - personally, I don’t have an opinion one way or another with regard to alien abductions, since I don’t know of any convincing evidence either way, and I’ve learned by hard experience that I don’t know everything that there is to know.

If someone who seemed sincere told me that he had been abducted by aliens, I’d assume he was telling the truth unless he gave me some reason to doubt him. I probably wouldn’t go seeking after aliens, in any case - I can hardly understand my next door neighbor, so my chances of understanding an alien are pretty remote.

Experiences are not things that you “try” to have. They tend to happen while you’re concentrating on something else.

If you are under the age of 40, you haven’t lived long enough to know whether such experiences are possible for you, or not.

 

[crazzeto]

Honestly, if one is trying to authentically follow the teachings of Jesus than yes. Christianity as preached by Jesus is at best unworkable and at works internally inconsistent (cf. Matthew 26.9 as quoted by crazzeto, Mary Magdeline and the oil that was worth–as I recall–300 gold pieces). It was a doomsday religion as evidenced, amongst other places, Matthew 24:30.

So much time studying, so little understanding… So sad, peace be with you Thomas. If it is no offence I will pray for you.

 

[jmcrae]

Not donate, sell. The art and to a lesser extent properties are a bit more difficult but certinly much of the gold can be done away with.

And, what should the person they are sold to do with them, then?

Or are we to assume a ready supply of materialistic atheists who won’t mind buying up a whole bunch of religious art, so that we can feed the poor for a day or so, and then become homeless ourselves?

(And who is going to give charity to us, once all the money runs out?)

 

[malphono]

It seems to me that this thread has morphed into something that has absolutely no place in this particular forum.

 

[cctabb]

How many times do I wait five years? If I came here in 2015–on my hoverboard I hope–asking for the current procedure isn’t it possible someone else will tell me the same thing? I know what you mean and this is not something I plan on doing on a whim but if I do make the decision to do this, after much thought, I’d like to know how hence the information gathering.

Wait just one set.

I asked you to wait because your original post sort of “sounded” (it is very hard to tell voice here) that this person posted this open letter renouncing his religion, and since you do not have the faith you think you should have that you should follow suit.

I cant’ tell you what someone will do while you are riding your hoverboard. But after 5 years if nothing has happened to change your mind I doubt you’ll be coming here asking for advice on how to go about it correctly.

This came after a concerted attempt to believe including frequent Mass attendance, bible study, prayer group &c. I finally asked ‘is there a metaphysical necessity of a prime mover?’ and the rest was science (and certainly not silence, sorry Will). For me faith has always been a purely metaphysical/academic/intellectual affair.

Have you been told that you are thinking about it too much?

 

[ThomasToo]

Wait just one set.

I asked you to wait because your original post sort of “sounded” (it is very hard to tell voice here) that this person posted this open letter renouncing his religion, and since you do not have the faith you think you should have that you should follow suit.

I cant’ tell you what someone will do while you are riding your hoverboard. But after 5 years if nothing has happened to change your mind I doubt you’ll be coming here asking for advice on how to go about it correctly.

Have you been told that you are thinking about it too much?

I was not one second, I was just asking essentially ‘how much waiting is enough?’ I am not upset by your request and it is certainly valid.

How can one think TOO much about the fundamental underpinnings of the universe? I think about everything, all the time, this could be why I never get enough sleep. This is one of the fundamental problems I have with ALL religion; I don’t like faith, as an intellectual principle it is (severely) lacking. I understand assumptions for numerous reasons but then one always has to go back and ask ‘what did I import into my data by these assumptions?’ How is Thomas the bad guy on Easter Sunday; he asked the question most reasonable people would ask. For example, if you told me you could fly I’d ask you to show me, I don’t think that’s bad… do you?

 

[Joe_5859]

It was 3 years ago, after I applied to Ph.D programs in theology (I couldn’t bear it and dropped after my MA)… This came after a concerted attempt to believe including frequent Mass attendance, bible study, prayer group &c. I finally asked ‘is there a metaphysical necessity of a prime mover?’ and the rest was science (and certainly not silence, sorry Will). For me faith has always been a purely metaphysical/academic/intellectual affair. I never had that sort of personal experience you described despite much trying but I don’t see where personal experience gets us–vis-a-vis faith claims–since, for example, many Americans claim to have been abducted by aliens but we’d be hard pressed to believe them.

Thanks for sharing.

It does get rather hairy trying to satisfactorily explain it all (at least for me ). Personal experience is so subjective and can be difficult to convey, but then all the facts and knowledge in the world are meaningless without the personal encounter. I won’t pretend to be able to articulate it adequately. I can only say I understand your dilemma.

Faith can’t be just an intellectual enterprise. That will inevitably lead us nowhere. That’s why the Catholic Church is not a religion of the Book, but a religion of the Word. The Word: Jesus. It’s all about or relationship with Jesus.

It’s kind of like a cake. You can study recipe book after recipe book. You can look at pictures. You can research until you know the ins and outs of culinary science. But until you actually taste the cake, your knowledge is incomplete. On the flipside, you don’t want to make the mistake that some Christians do in thinking that you can jettison the recipe and expect to come up with a decent cake.

In my mind, theology and doctrine is like the recipe. You need it to get the cake, but the recipe is not the end of itself. The cake is. Jesus is the cake.

 

[jmcrae]

How is Thomas the bad guy on Easter Sunday; he asked the question most reasonable people would ask.

Why are you assuming that Thomas was a “bad guy”?

There is nothing in the text to support such a conclusion - as a theologian, I’d have thought you would have noticed that.

For example, if you told me you could fly I’d ask you to show me, I don’t think that’s bad… do you?

Nor do I think that Thomas’ question was wrong, either.

 

[ThomasToo]

And, what should the person they are sold to do with them, then?

Or are we to assume a ready supply of materialistic atheists who won’t mind buying up a whole bunch of religious art, so that we can feed the poor for a day or so, and then become homeless ourselves?

(And who is going to give charity to us, once all the money runs out?)

If I had the money I’d own some religious art. The fact that it’s Jesus and Mary in the Pieta doesn’t make it less beautiful to me than knowing Nike is not real make the statue of Winged Victory less beautiful.

I don’t disagree with you that the scheme is unworkable but that doesn’t mean it’s not what the Bible says. And let’s not get into anything about stoning people… (OT, I know I know…)

 

[Joe_5859]

I was not one second, I was just asking essentially ‘how much waiting is enough?’ I am not upset by your request and it is certainly valid.

How can one think TOO much about the fundamental underpinnings of the universe? I think about everything, all the time, this could be why I never get enough sleep. This is one of the fundamental problems I have with ALL religion; I don’t like faith, as an intellectual principle it is (severely) lacking. I understand assumptions for numerous reasons but then one always has to go back and ask ‘what did I import into my data by these assumptions?’ How is Thomas the bad guy on Easter Sunday; he asked the question most reasonable people would ask. For example, if you told me you could fly I’d ask you to show me, I don’t think that’s bad… do you?

Have you read JPII’s Fides et Ratio?

 

[jmcrae]

If I had the money I’d own some religious art. The fact that it’s Jesus and Mary in the Pieta doesn’t make it less beautiful to me than knowing Nike is not real make the statue of Winged Victory less beautiful.

I don’t disagree with you that the scheme is unworkable but that doesn’t mean it’s not what the Bible says. And let’s not get into anything about stoning people… (OT, I know I know…)

The Bible has to be read with context in mind. Jesus was speaking to one specific person; not to the multitudes, and not to the disciples.

That one individual was being called by Jesus to renounce his fortune; Jesus did not require this of either Judas or Matthew, nor of the four women who followed after Him and the disciples - indeed, we are told that it was a virtue of theirs, to be rich and to supply for the needs of Jesus and the Twelve whenever they found the opportunity to do so.

Again, I would have thought that a theologian would have noticed these details.