Debate on homosexuality (for a friend)

[CatholicLeft]

If indeed selflessness, peace, love, and unity
Are secular concepts which unite us as a country
Since there is still division
How are these secular concepts divisive?

It all has to do with how you view the world. There are some who believe in the “us vs them” attudidte. wheither is Republicans vs Democrats, Catholics vs Proterstants, Christians vs Homosexuals or Traditional Catholics vs Liberal Catholics.

IMO this is not the way god wanted things. It’s a fear of people and things that are diffrent then yourself. It’s the root of racism. It is a dangerous path for any soul to take, I pray for those on this path. It kinda reminds me of that quote from Star Wars…

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

-Yodi

It may just be a silly quote from a movie, but I think there is a lot of truth to this. I think this is what our Church tries to teach us everyday

2196 In response to the question about the first of the commandments, Jesus says: "The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these."2

The apostle St. Paul reminds us of this: “He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. The commandments, ‘You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,’ and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”

-CC

 

[Psychotheosophy]

…It all has to do with how you view the world. There are some who believe in the “us vs them” attudidte. wheither is Republicans vs Democrats, Catholics vs Proterstants, Christians vs Homosexuals or Traditional Catholics vs Liberal Catholics…

So the secular concepts themselves
Do not divide us,

Rather,

It is how we view these concepts
That does divide us?

 

[neat62]

Psychotheosophy;4528404

So both sides accuse eachother of being
Selfish, violent, hating, dividers

I’m just pointing out the hypocricy of the left and their delusions. They are the ones who claim to not be the “haters”, not the Right. I am not saying that the Right are haters, just that we never claimed, as a platform, to not be “haters”, as the Left does.

So what secular concepts unite us as a country?
Selflessness, peace, love, …?

Secular concepts? The three you listed above go both ways, but as far as strictly secular concepts? Humm. I don’t know. Way too deep for this particular topic. Well, not too deep, just straying from this topic. Maybe in another thread.

 

[neat62]

Psychotheosophy;4531069]

So the secular concepts themselves
Do not divide us,

Rather,

It is how we view these concepts
That does divide us?

Can be part of it, sure. And the the way people choose to enforce/administor/practice/etc those concepts. AND to what degree those concepts are put into effect. For example: Welfare. Most favor some degree of welfare. The issue arises when people disagree on how/by whom it is adminstered.

 

[estesbob]

Did you know?

• Of 32,000 verses in the Bible, only five directly mention homosexuality.

After it is descibed as an abomination there is not a lot more that needs to be said

• The Qur’an only directly mentions homosexuality once.
  Again Directly Condmening it.
• Leviticus, the book of the Bible which stipulates death for homosexuality, requires the same punishment for adultery, pre-marital sex, disobedient children and blasphemy.

Jess changed all that as shown in the New Testment-now punishment is spiritualnot physical. Peter states that Nothing outside the Body can make you unlean which negates all the dietary laws and Paul re-iterates the sinfullness of homosexualtiy

• The Biblical Jesus does not condemn homosexuality.
  Nor does he condmen rape, armed robbery, incest or a whole host of other crimes.
• The destruction of the Biblical city of Sodom was due to their mistreatment of strangers.
  A novel interpertation that was unheard of until about 40 year go and is accepted today only by those who support the homosexual agenda. Are we to beleive that everyone got it wrong for 2,000 years until some homosexual rights activists came along and figured out the correct interpretation? In addtion does anyone beleive that God would raze a city becuase one man didnt invite strnegersin or dinner???
• The Bible never condemns same sex marriage.
  But it condemns homosexual behavior. Given that is it logical to believe that homosexual behavir is wrong but an institution validating homosexual nehavior is OK? ceremony
• The Biblical David and Jonathan had a formal same-sex union.
  Based soley on the problem homoexuals have understanding that a close male frendship does not have to entail sex.* ‘Traditional marriage’ in the Bible includes polygamy.
  Yes it does-what it does not include is any mention of same sex marriage.
• No known sacred text forbids same sex marriage.
  But condmens homosexal behavior. Are they impying that homosexaul “marriages” will be celibate
• Very few sacred texts even mention homosexuality.
  So? Once again after it is described as an abomnation there is not a whole lot more that needs to be said
• Hindu and other far eastern sacred texts do not condemn homosexuality.
  So?
• Homosexuality is not unnatural, it is practised by hundreds of species of animals.

My dog licks his anus-does that mean I should to? Snakes eat their young. Does that mean I can to?

This poses a threat to her extra credit because her opponent is God-awesome at debates. How can we compete with this, assuming that these points may be addressed?

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[neat62]

estesbob

Homosexuality is not unnatural, it is practised by hundreds of species of animals.

My dog licks his anus-does that mean I should to? Snakes eat their young. Does that mean I can to?

Right. Rape can be natural as well. So can murder. Cancer is natural. So is theft and dominating the weak.

Often animals have sex with relatives and near-relatives (from a human perspective, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, grandparents, etc.) — in other words, they commit incest.

Animals often allow large groups of males to have sex with a female, even leaving her near-dead or even dead — that is, they engage in ‘gang rape.

Some animals have sex with younger animals. Pedophillia ring a bell?

All natural. Then we should allow it in our little human communities.

 

[ReconMarine]

And do you believe that only Catholism is the keeper of moral truth. The evil of murder, thank God, is a moral truth that crosses through almost all religions and secular groups.

If the Catholic Church was the dominate power in America today, would we have the right to force mass conversions on our Christian brothers and sisters? On the non-christians? How about the secular non-believers? If the Catholic church is the teacher of all objective moral truth, Think of all the souls we could save.

YES THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE KEEPER OF MORAL TRUTH. Catholic left you really are off base . THE CATHOLIC FAITH IS THE ONE TRUE FAITH AND OUR FAITH IS FROM GOD HIMSELF. THE CHURCH IS NEVER WRONG ON FAITH AND MORALS. Try being a Roman Catholic first and not a liberal.

 

[flaming_hito]

This point could have well been made, but…what about intersexed people? Lets take Klinefelter’s Syndrome. Saying it’s a choice is 100% flat out wrong. Some people have two “X” chromosomes and one “Y” chromosomes. That is a fact. In fact, it’s not some rare abnormality - 1 in 500 “males” have it. But are they males? They have two x chromosomes. Does having relations with a woman (who, remember, has two X chromosomes) constitute “same sex relations”? Or what of those women with two X chromosomes that accidentally have a copy of the SRY gene?

I’m not at all using this as a lead in to “guys sodomy is the best thing ever!” I’m just pointing out that saying homosexuality is learned and not acquired relies on a black-and-white idea of sexuality that simply does not exist. And to call it a “disorder” is fundamentally wrong, because a mutation that occurs naturally in the genome can be distasteful to you, or it can not be. If you can drink milk, you are glad of the relatively new “mutation” that has kept you lactose tolerant into adulthood. Ultimately, you can call homosexuality a disorder on the grounds of “I don’t like it”, but it does occur in nature at least to some degree when you look at how mercurial “sex” can be and saying that it is a mutation gives no insight into it’s value and cannot be used as grounds for calling it a “disorder”.

If the Church wants to oppose homosexual relations, they can cite distaste of sodomy, tradition, or the simple fact that this is their religion and what they say goes. But not nature.

 

[neat62]

flaming_hito;4532853]

If the Church wants to oppose homosexual relations, they can cite distaste of sodomy, tradition, or the simple fact that this is their religion and what they say goes. But not nature.

Ok. Then where do we draw the line in nature as it pertains to a society? Incest can be natural in nature. Rape can be natural in nature. Pedophillia can be natural in nature. If we use the “it’s natural in nature”, then who is to say that all things natural are acceptable or not? Who are we to discriminate against certain forms of nature?

 

[flaming_hito]

Well that’s the rub, isn’t it? We’ll have to form our own set of ethics without looking to nature for guidance or excuses. I’m not saying everything in nature is right. I’m just saying homosexuality is in it. I don’t support rape, incest, or pedophilia. That’s my point - we draw our distinctions not from nature, but from culture. We’ll have to do that with homosexuality. However, it seems to be quite like the issue of race - slavery supporters often quoted the Bible and used supposed deficits people of color to perpetrate the cruelty; however, when it was proven that being black was no “disorder”, the idea could not stand.

Who are we to discriminate against certain forms of nature? We’re creatures with culture. We’re human. It’s what we do.

 

[CatholicLeft]

YES THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS THE KEEPER OF MORAL TRUTH. Catholic left you really are off base . THE CATHOLIC FAITH IS THE ONE TRUE FAITH AND OUR FAITH IS FROM GOD HIMSELF. THE CHURCH IS NEVER WRONG ON FAITH AND MORALS. Try being a Roman Catholic first and not a liberal.

So are you saying no other religion has any parts of the truth? No one in this world is moral except the Catholic Church? All major religions say murder is wrong. Are they wrong cause they are not Catholic? Gandhi and MLK both change the world with non-violence. Neither one was Catholic. Was it an accident that they conducted there reforms in a godly peace loving way or were they following their faiths. We may have the whole pie, but it doesn’t mean that others don’t have pieces of the pie (i.e. truth) Try being a Roman Catholic first and not a closed minded robot. This kind of thinking is how suicide bombers are made.

 

[estesbob]

So are you saying no other religion has any parts of the truth? No one in this world is moral except the Catholic Church? All major religions say murder is wrong. Are they wrong cause they are not Catholic? Gandhi and MLK both change the world with non-violence. Neither one was Catholic. Was it an accident that they conducted there reforms in a godly peace loving way or were they following their faiths. We may have the whole pie, but it doesn’t mean that others don’t have pieces of the pie (i.e. truth) Try being a Roman Catholic first and not a closed minded robot. This kind of thinking is how suicide bombers are made.

I dont know how you could arrive at this based on what he said. The Catholic Church is the only Church that has the fullness of truth. other faiths may have parts of it but it is but a pale shadow of what one can experience in the catholic Church

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Secular concepts? The three you listed above go both ways,…

Forgive me if I have gone off topic,

But,

This is what I find so striking…

A diversity of people
Across time and place
Firmly accept
A particular set of concepts

From a secular perspective,
How can this be?

 

[ReconMarine]

So are you saying no other religion has any parts of the truth? No one in this world is moral except the Catholic Church? All major religions say murder is wrong. Are they wrong cause they are not Catholic? Gandhi and MLK both change the world with non-violence. Neither one was Catholic. Was it an accident that they conducted there reforms in a godly peace loving way or were they following their faiths. We may have the whole pie, but it doesn’t mean that others don’t have pieces of the pie (i.e. truth) Try being a Roman Catholic first and not a closed minded robot. This kind of thinking is how suicide bombers are made.

I rather be a robot for Christ then have my own views on the True Faith. I will always follow Christ with both eyes closed. Its knowing the whole truth that brings you to Heaven. Not all that says Lord ,Lord will enter into heaven. I except the word racist coming next from you. God Bless brother. You can never change or cover up the truth.

 

[CatholicLeft]

I rather be a robot for Christ then have my own views on the True Faith. I will always follow Christ with both eyes closed. Its knowing the whole truth that brings you to Heaven. Not all that says Lord ,Lord will enter into heaven. I except the word racist coming next from you. God Bless brother. You can never change or cover up the truth.

So, tell me again why I am so far from the truth? Because I believe that other Christian faiths also can have some moral truth .
Well It’s time for you to come back to the truth.

The aim of the Second Vatican Council, as its initiator, Pope John XXIII, stated, was to seek renewal from within the Church itself, which would serve, for those separated from the see of Rome, as a “gentle invitation to seek and find that unity for which Jesus Christ prayed so ardently to his heavenly Father.”] The Council opened up an era of earnest endeavour not only to explain to others the Church’s teaching, but also to understand their outlook.

While the Roman Catholic Church sees itself as the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church founded by Christ himself, it recognizes that elements of salvation are found in other churches also. The Second Vatican Council’s document, Lumen Gentium, 8, states that the sole church of Christ as “subsists in or exists in” rather than simply “is identical with” the Catholic Church:

Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and truth are found outside its visible confines. Since these are gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, they are forces impelling towards Catholic unity.
The Roman Catholic Church has, since the Second Vatican Council, reached out to Christian bodies, seeking reconciliation to the greatest degree possible.

ReconMarine, I’m not sure if you need to come back to the truth or come back to the 21st century, but you need to be in more lock step with your one, holy, catholic and apostolic church founded by Christ himself,

I will pray for you

 

[CatholicLeft]

I dont know how you could arrive at this based on what he said. The Catholic Church is the only Church that has the fullness of truth. other faiths may have parts of it but it is but a pale shadow of what one can experience in the catholic Church

And is this your personal opinion or can I find this as official Church teaching somewhere? I have already pointed out that Church teaching tells us that “it recognizes that elements of salvation are found in other churches also.” (see above) I’m not sure about the “pale shadow” part though.

 

[fix]

With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another’”.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92
** CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH** DECLARATION***
“DOMINUS IESUS”
***ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH

 

[CatholicLeft]

With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another’”.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
DECLARATION
“DOMINUS IESUS”
ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH

Thank you for supporting my argument. I never said all religions are equal. I just said that while other Christian Churches have a piece of the truth pie, the Catholic Church has the whole pie. But I will stand by my statement that no where in Catholic Doctrine does it say that other Christian faiths have no pie at all.

 

[neat62]

Well that’s the rub, isn’t it? We’ll have to form our own set of ethics without looking to nature for guidance or excuses. I’m not saying everything in nature is right. I’m just saying homosexuality is in it. I don’t support rape, incest, or pedophilia. That’s my point - we draw our distinctions not from nature, but from culture. We’ll have to do that with homosexuality. However, it seems to be quite like the issue of race - slavery supporters often quoted the Bible and used supposed deficits people of color to perpetrate the cruelty; however, when it was proven that being black was no “disorder”, the idea could not stand.

Who are we to discriminate against certain forms of nature? We’re creatures with culture. We’re human. It’s what we do.

Ok, I gotcha.