Debating CoC preacher about Infant Baptism

[stevekehl]

How did this thread go from infant baptism to purgatory? When confronted by non-Catholics about Baptism I refer them to Acts where Peter baptised households- i.e. everyone in the household which would seem to include infants and children.Response?

My bad. We got to talking about the authority of Scripture and I asked about Purgatory.

 

[stevekehl]

Hmmm… “let the children come to me, for the kingdom of heaven surely belongs to those such as these”… I don’t see “… once they have faith” in there.

Is that a King James thing?

Whoa, pardner!! (Do they still say that in Texas?)Careful with the don’t need faith for salvation talk. That violates about a dozen Scriptures, including John 3:16.

 

[stevekehl]

But Paul may not be worried about all the individual churches. Wasn’t Ephesians an example of a people that had taken well to the word, where the Corinthians kept trying to find a way to stir up trouble.

I would be worried about the churches, in any event, without worrying about the Church, because Christ promised to be with the Church until the end of the age.

He said burdened by worries for all the churches, that would include everyone. Thanks for the smilies, or is it yawnies. Gotta go, still haven’t done my Sunday School lesson yet. and then Have a great Sunday everyone.

 

[NotWorthy]

Whoa, pardner!! (Do they still say that in Texas?)Careful with the don’t need faith for salvation talk. That violates about a dozen Scriptures, including John 3:16.

I never said “faith is not necessary for baptism”. I simply said, “until they have faith” is not added to “let the children come to me for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these”.
Faith is necessary for Baptism. But the parents faith is enough for the infant to be baptized. It’s a 2000 year tradition!

 

[Cat_Herder]

Whoa, pardner!! (Do they still say that in Texas?)

Yes they do. I have said that on CAF on a number of occasions.

Careful with the don’t need faith for salvation talk. That violates about a dozen Scriptures, including John 3:16.

Actually, salvation is by grace alone. Faith does have something to do with it, though.

The preborn, infants, children below the age of reason, mentally infirm, invincibly ignorant, and so on go to heaven on a regular basis despite having no faith. Per Hebrews 10:26 a grave sin such as total lack of faith must be deliberate and done with with full knowledge so as forefeit salvation. Since none of these groups are guilty of knowingly or deliberately lacking faith, God does not hold it against them.

 

[rebeccanew]

I can’t remember how the Church of Christ teach about the effects of Baptism and “being saved”. Do they believe in “Once saved, always saved” and Baptism is the sign of this saving? If so, then Infant Baptism can never be reconciled, for if an infant is baptized, and they lead a sinful life, then there’s no way that baptism could be effective.

We all lead sinful lives, as we are all sinners. Baptism brings us closer to Christ so that we may receive the graces that He longs to give us. I want my children to have saving graces as soon as possible.

 

[NotWorthy]

We all lead sinful lives, as we are all sinners. Baptism brings us closer to Christ so that we may receive the graces that He longs to give us. I want my children to have saving graces as soon as possible.

I agree 100%.

But if you step back and look at who you are discussing this with, you’ve got to realize.

Infant Baptism will never be reconciled with someone who believes “Once saved, always saved”.

To someone who believes in OSAS, the thought of infant baptism is impossible because then someone “could be saved” as an infant and never have had their faith added to the issue.

So, you are wasting your time trying to address infant baptism with them. You’ve got to get them off of OSAS first.

 

[stevekehl]

I think I see where the root of the disagreement is. Correct me if I am wrong, Catholics believe there are sacraments which impart God’s grace to a person. Grace being that we get (salvation) what we don’t deserve. Speaking for my denomination (I don’t know enough about others to speak for them) God gives grace freely to those who have faith in Him. This faith comes by hearing and understanding God’s word. We also believe those who can’t understand (unborn, infants, young children, mentally retarded, insane, etc…) will be accepted to heaven because of God’s mercy.
Whether God starts extending that grace after someone confesses Christ as their Lord and Savior or when they come up out of the water I don’t know. Our church baptizes ASAP after a person makes their confession. The church I grew up in had a baptistry ready 24/7, baptism was automatic after confessing so exactly when grace was imparted didn’t matter.

 

[NotWorthy]

I think I see where the root of the disagreement is. Correct me if I am wrong, Catholics believe there are sacraments which impart God’s grace to a person. Grace being that we get (salvation) what we don’t deserve. Speaking for my denomination (I don’t know enough about others to speak for them) God gives grace freely to those who have faith in Him. This faith comes by hearing and understanding God’s word. We also believe those who can’t understand (unborn, infants, young children, mentally retarded, insane, etc…) will be accepted to heaven because of God’s mercy.
Whether God starts extending that grace after someone confesses Christ as their Lord and Savior or when they come up out of the water I don’t know. Our church baptizes ASAP after a person makes their confession. The church I grew up in had a baptistry ready 24/7, baptism was automatic after confessing so exactly when grace was imparted didn’t matter.

Well, there are graces and then there are graces.

The Actual Graces are a lot like you described, “God gives grace freely to those who have faith in Him”, but God also gives them to those without faith, which helps to ignite their faith. There are other types of actual graces, but you get the gist of it.

But then there are Sacramental Graces, and God normally distributes those through the Church. Take Forgiveness of our Sins, for instance. God gave the authority to the Apostles to forgive sins in His Name (John 20:20-22 among other Scriptures). Through the Apostolic Succession, this authority has been passed on to the priesthood to forgive sins in His Name to the faithful. BTW, do you realize that many priests can trace their line of succession all the way back to an Apostle?

The Eucharist is another Sacramental Grace that is distributed through the Church. In the Last Supper, Jesus instituted the priesthood (Note: “Do this in Memory of Me” is a command with a heavily Sacrificial context).

Baptism is another Sacramental Grace, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be done through a priest, bishop, or deacon.

Marriage is a Sacramental Grace, but the Graces are transferred straight from God to the married couple.

There are 7 sacraments in the Catholic Church.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Infant Baptism will never be reconciled with someone who believes “Once saved, always saved”.

To someone who believes in OSAS, the thought of infant baptism is impossible because then someone “could be saved” as an infant and never have had their faith added to the issue.

So, you are wasting your time trying to address infant baptism with them. You’ve got to get them off of OSAS first.

But believer’s baptism can’t be reconciled with OSAS either. What happens to children who die before they are able to profess faith? If they are saved, then OSAS is false because then there would be no need for them to profess faith and be baptized unless upon reaching the age of reason they somehow lose their salvation.

Thus both salvation by faith alone/credobaptism and OSAS are false.

 

[NotWorthy]

But believer’s baptism can’t be reconciled with OSAS either. What happens to children who die before they are able to profess faith? If they are saved, then OSAS is false because then there would be no need for them to profess faith and be baptized unless upon reaching the age of reason they somehow lose their salvation.

Thus both salvation by faith alone/credobaptism and OSAS are false.

So, once again, you have to get them off of OSAS before you can argue infant baptism.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Hmmm… “let the children come to me, for the kingdom of heaven surely belongs to those such as these”… I don’t see “… once they have faith” in there.

Is that a King James thing?

Baptism wise, the parents bring their children for baptism. They cannot make a decision for themselves.

And: “No one can come to me unless the Father draws them to me”

As for the Faith specifically:

Baptism in the Church

1226 From the very day of Pentecost the Church has celebrated and administered holy Baptism. Indeed St. Peter declares to the crowd astounded by his preaching: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."26 The apostles and their collaborators offer Baptism to anyone who believed in Jesus: Jews, the God-fearing, pagans.27 Always, Baptism is seen as connected with faith: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household,” St. Paul declared to his jailer in Philippi. And the narrative continues, the jailer "was baptized at once, with all his family."28

1227 According to the Apostle Paul, the believer enters through Baptism into communion with Christ’s death, is buried with him, and rises with him:

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.29
The baptized have "put on Christ."30 Through the Holy Spirit, Baptism is a bath that purifies, justifies, and sanctifies.31

1228 Hence Baptism is a bath of water in which the “imperishable seed” of the Word of God produces its life-giving effect.32 St. Augustine says of Baptism: "The word is brought to the material element, and it becomes a sacrament."33

III. HOW IS THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM CELEBRATED?

Christian Initiation

1229 From the time of the apostles, becoming a Christian has been accomplished by a journey and initiation in several stages. This journey can be covered rapidly or slowly, but certain essential elements will always have to be present: proclamation of the Word, acceptance of the Gospel entailing conversion,** profession of faith**, Baptism itself, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and admission to Eucharistic communion.

Children cannot profess Faith (At least in a way we understand ), thus the parents do for them.

So no, it’s not a KJV thing. It is in fact a RCC thing

PS - I like the DR better than KJV anyways

 

[Isaiah45_9]

But believer’s baptism can’t be reconciled with OSAS either. What happens to children who die before they are able to profess faith? If they are saved, then OSAS is false because then there would be no need for them to profess faith and be baptized unless upon reaching the age of reason they somehow lose their salvation.

Thus both salvation by faith alone/credobaptism and OSAS are false.

How about God’s covenant regarding circumcision at 8 days old? The parents will bring their children to God in profession of their faith and in accordance with God’s covenant. I am most positive that an 8 days old child has no say in being circumcised for entrance to God’s covenant, less profess Faith into it. Still God was pretty clear about it.

And while I don’t see anything wrong about the baptism of children. I don’t believe that baptism saves by itself. it is part of the obedience of our Lord in our Faith.

Even the RCC is clear in its catechism about faith preceding baptism.

 

[NotWorthy]

Baptism wise, the parents bring their children for baptism. They cannot make a decision for themselves.

And: “No one can come to me unless the Father draws them to me”

True, the Father draws the parents to bring their children to Jesus, for the Kingdom belongs to such as them. There is no argument here.

Children cannot profess Faith (At least in a way we understand ), thus the parents do for them.

So no, it’s not a KJV thing. It is in fact a RCC thing

PS - I like the DR better than KJV anyways

I’m not sure what you are trying to argue here. Faith brings us to Baptism. In the case of an infant, its the faith of the parents that brings the child to baptism. As I said, its the 2000 year tradition of Christianity.

Who am I to buck tradition?

 

[NotWorthy]

How about God’s covenant regarding circumcision at 8 days old? The parents will bring their children to God in profession of their faith and in accordance with God’s covenant. I am most positive that an 8 days old child has no say in being circumcised for entrance to God’s covenant, less profess Faith into it. Still God was pretty clear about it.

And while I don’t see anything wrong about the baptism of children. I don’t believe that baptism saves by itself. it is part of the obedience of our Lord in our Faith.

Even the RCC is clear in its catechism about faith preceding baptism.

If you read the Catechism’s teaching on infant baptism, you’ll find that the two teachings clearly coincide with each other and with Scripture and with Tradtion.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Well Catechism clearly specifies that Faith precedes baptism.

In the case of children:

1. The Priest, whoever baptizes must have faith (Of course this aplies to adults as well).
2. The parents or legal guardian.

My entire point in this thread is that baptism without faith is nothing, baptism by itself does not save. It is an action triggered by faith.

 

[Cat_Herder]

How about God’s covenant regarding circumcision at 8 days old? The parents will bring their children to God in profession of their faith and in accordance with God’s covenant. I am most positive that an 8 days old child has no say in being circumcised for entrance to God’s covenant, less profess Faith into it. Still God was pretty clear about it.

And while I don’t see anything wrong about the baptism of children. I don’t believe that baptism saves by itself. it is part of the obedience of our Lord in our Faith.

That’s salvation by works.

Even the RCC is clear in its catechism about faith preceding baptism.

Grace precedes faith. It’s true that children are baptized on the faith of the parents but part of the baptismal rite is a prayer by the parents that God will give the child faith. Thus, from the child’s perspective, baptismal grace precedes faith. Faith is a response to grace. If grace were a response to faith then humans would be the actors who bring forth their own salvation.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

That’s salvation by works.

Grace precedes faith. It’s true that children are baptized on the faith of the parents but part of the baptismal rite is a prayer by the parents that God will give the child faith. Thus, from the child’s perspective, baptismal grace precedes faith. Faith is a response to grace. If grace were a response to faith then humans would be the actors who bring forth their own salvation.

There is nothing our works can do to earn salvation.

Like in your previous post, Salvation is by Grace through Faith (Eph 2:8-9).

Matthew 7:16-23

16 From their fruits ye shall know them; do men gather from thorns grapes? or from thistles figs?
17 so every good tree doth yield good fruits, but the bad tree doth yield evil fruits.
18 A good tree is not able to yield evil fruits, nor a bad tree to yield good fruits.
19 Every tree not yielding good fruit is cut down and is cast to fire:
20 therefore from their fruits ye shall know them.
21 ‘Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
23 and then I will acknowledge to them, that—I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.

Who said Faith precedes Grace? Don’t see your point here as we are discussing between Faith and Baptism.

And saying that Faith is just a response grossly minimizes what it is.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;

9 Not of works, that no man may glory.

Galatians 5:22-23

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity,

23 Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law.

And Hebrews 11 goes more into faith.

 

[NotWorthy]

Well Catechism clearly specifies that Faith precedes baptism.

In the case of children:

1. The Priest, whoever baptizes must have faith (Of course this aplies to adults as well).
2. The parents or legal guardian.

I’m not sure if the faith of the preist is even necessary. I understand that an atheists can even baptize someone. There are a few stipulations, but most atheists that I know don’t exactly have faith.

My entire point in this thread is that baptism without faith is nothing, baptism by itself does not save. It is an action triggered by faith.

If someone, including a baby, is killed immediately following a valid baptism, then you could easily say that the Baptism saved them.

The baptism does open up Graces that help someone follow the teachings of Christ, making it easier for a Christian to remain in a state of Grace!

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I’m not sure if the faith of the preist is even necessary. I understand that an atheists can even baptize someone. There are a few stipulations, but most atheists that I know don’t exactly have faith.

My understanding is that neonatal nurses and doctors and EMTs who don’t have a Christian - or any - faith can and have baptized prenatal children, with the approval of the church, that aren’t likely to survive if a priest isn’t available and the parents’ faith is known.