Debating with protestants who just won't listen

[Wannano]

Wannano:

One question my son asked me, and I had to admit I did not know the answer: a heretic is a baptized Catholic who has chosen to deny certain central dogmas of the Faith (Luther having been a good example).

But what is someone who was raised in a protestant group, never baptized Catholic, and simply believes as they do because they don’t know any better? What category do they fall into? Heretic? Schismatic?

As I understand it the CC now calls these people, myself included, “brothers and sisters in Christ.”

That’s incorrect. “Separated brethren” is what the CC now calls these people.

It is unfortunate that some non-Catholics are not very Christlike in their attitudes toward the CC, but you know, just look at the posts above to see that the attitude of some Catholics is not much better toward non-Catholics.

Absolutely. Since both sides contain actual people. It’s a human problem rather than a Catholic/Protestant problem.

It seems the Church has a difficult time educating the laity.

It seems all of them do. When I was a young Baptist, we called other uneducated Baptists “bubble-gum Christians” because they were so seemingly vapid.

It’s the classic problem of “how do you educate someone not particularly motivated to learn?”.

It seems you really can’t.

Vapid, thanks for a new word for Scrabble!

I am sure I read somewhere the term " brothers and sisters in Christ" but I may be mistaken.

 

[HeDa]

This is a general way the protestants look at Christian faith and history that might help you to understand their way of reasoning.

The first churches are the ones mentioned in the Bible (first century) and that “includes” the Bible. Now, we know that the NT was settled upon in councils from year 380 and all of the Bible (73 books) around the year 400 in councils. From their reasoning the history goes from NT churches and then the next event is the reformation if they are Lutheran or Calvin followers or the like. If they are more baptist like then they have the NT churches, “something happened in the 1600s” and then straight to 1800-1900 centuries depending upon where they live. This means that earlier church documents are not read or read by very few. Church fathers, councils etc etc etc etc etc etc are not part of the faith in the same way as for Catholics and Orthodox Christians.

This is a very short general explanation. When you are not living in a teaching tradition that goes back through the centuries to the Apostles, then you have to make up your own faith and reasoning and then we have the great mix of beliefs that the protestants have. “They are right because that is the way they interpret the Bible and the faith.” So there is no need to listen to a Catholic…

 

[Spheroid400]

A heretic usually needs a distorted dogma in place of the professed dogma.
Mere denial without a proposed “solution” to replace the denial is not really heresy,
it’s called stupidity instead. That would be like saying, there is no light shining from the sun…
(stupidity). Saying, the sun can be heard playing The Beatles song, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds,
that pure heresy (and probably stupidity also )
I don’t think you can be censured for a dislike of music,
and I hope that is neither heresy nor stupidity.

 

[Wannano]

This is a general way the protestants look at Christian faith and history that might help you to understand their way of reasoning.

The first churches are the ones mentioned in the Bible (first century) and that “includes” the Bible. Now, we know that the NT was settled upon in councils from year 380 and all of the Bible (73 books) around the year 400 in councils. From their reasoning the history goes from NT churches and then the next event is the reformation if they are Lutheran or Calvin followers or the like. If they are more baptist like then they have the NT churches, “something happened in the 1600s” and then straight to 1800-1900 centuries depending upon where they live. This means that earlier church documents are not read or read by very few. Church fathers, councils etc etc etc etc etc etc are not part of the faith in the same way as for Catholics and Orthodox Christians.

This is a very short general explanation. When you are not living in a teaching tradition that goes back through the centuries to the Apostles, then you have to make up your own faith and reasoning and then we have the great mix of beliefs that the protestants have. “They are right because that is the way they interpret the Bible and the faith.” So there is no need to listen to a Catholic…

If your proclamation was accurate there would be lots of reason to listen to a Catholic.

 

[Spheroid400]

Yes. Like the brother who cannot see because he has a large board in his eye (much more than a splinter). They are so focused to distract on other people’s sins, that they cannot see their own (as one possibility).
Question is, at what time will they see? Is telling them about the “diagnosis” enough to change the “disease”.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

One question my son asked me, and I had to admit I did not know the answer: a heretic is a baptized Catholic who has chosen to deny certain central dogmas of the Faith (Luther having been a good example).

But what is someone who was raised in a protestant group, never baptized Catholic, and simply believes as they do because they don’t know any better? What category do they fall into? Heretic? Schismatic?

As I understand it the CC now calls these people, myself included, “brothers and sisters in Christ.”

That’s incorrect. “Separated brethren” is what the CC now calls these people.

On July 9 in a post “are Protestants brothers and sisters in Christ” you replied “yes.”

From Conflict to Communion Chapter 5. "(Protestants ) to be rightly called brothers and sisters in Christ),

Sorry, I don’t know how to cut and paste .

 

[PetraG]

The main issue I have encountered with Protestants is bible reading. While only a dozen of some full Protestant congregations attend a bible study, they prefer their leader to be quoting scripture upon answering their questions. Dogmatic priests are what many Catholics prefer and some request scripture citations.

Catholic Answers is a great source of books and tracts that show the Scriptural basis for the Faith.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Maybe because I was never a protestant I don’t understand this, but WHY are they so close-minded and harbor such irrational and frankly ridiculous hatred for the true Church? Were they raised that way?

In many cases, yes. They were also raised to treasure their own faith as much as we treasure ours.
I do not like to “debate” Protestants because it is just going to end up with both of us feeling hurt, not in one of us wanting to switch to a different religion. For that matter, I don’t like to “debate” anyone unless I am being paid to do so, then it’s work and not an emotional issue.

I like to “discuss” which means we are both open-minded and at the first sign of irrational hatred, I am out the door.

 

[JetteZ]

WHY are they so close-minded and harbor such irrational and frankly ridiculous hatred for the true Church?

1. Because they have equally dear to their hearts feelings regarding their own Christian faith.
2. They have had equally profound revelations and spiritual growth which has brought them closer to God from within that faith.
3. Then they meet Catholics who want to “debate” how they are wrong instead of listening and discussing differences and similarities.

What do you call Protestants: Brothers and sisters in Christ.

Jesus told us to love and Paul gave us a really clear description of what love is and it does not include calling people who have a true love of Christ heretics.

 

[mkoopman]

I would try to take your foundation and not concern yourself so much with the distorted viewpoint. Love conquers all, this established by Jesus is with certainty rooted in Orthodox truth. Jesus is, as Pilate learned while in judgement, that very Orthodox truth, incarnate; Immanuel. Our Protestant sisters and brothers should be found to be in concordance with this belief. Try asking them how Scripture proves this to them. Then, the hardest part, accompany the other.
We so wish them to have the fullness of faith our desire can be the greatest obstacle. It is very difficult to supress what is right and just when we wish to foster greater love to be revealed to our separated brethen. The Spirit, the Advocate, is the only means and free will can be obstinate. Try to encounter and inquire with your love of Scripture as your greatest gift for convicting them about your shared love, Jesus.
Thank you for your witness and bless you for evangelizing. Prayers for your success and let Him encourage your joy while swallowing the suffering you feel for the loss of our brothers as redemptive suffering, what is truly joy, united to Our Crucified Lord. He will bring you and them to His Resurrection in love. And, oh, what joy when He returns and we are assumed!

 

[PJM]

Maybe because I was never a protestant I don’t understand this, but WHY are they so close-minded and harbor such irrational and frankly ridiculous hatred for the true Church? Were they raised that way? The ex Catholics can be just as bad if not worse, and I find often turned against the Church for marriage reasons (divorced, wanted to remarry, Church wouldn’t let them, so they went to a protestant sect that would let them).

But what is someone who was raised in a protestant group, never baptized Catholic, and simply believes as they do because they don’t know any better? What category do they fall into? Heretic? Schismatic

Not sure what they fall into, BUT do know WHY they are so closed-minded and Obstinate.

Job.17: 4 “Since thou hast closed their minds to understanding, therefore thou wilt not let them triumph.

2nd. Cor. 4:3-4 “And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.

Col.2: 8 “See to it that no one makes a prey of you by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ

Eph. 4: 17-18 “Now this I affirm and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds; they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart;”

And I can explain exactly WHY this is:

1Tim.2 Verses 3 to 4:”This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

What is “TRUTH?”
noun
the quality or state of being true.

synonyms: veracity, truthfulness, verity, sincerity, candor, honesty;

That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality END QUOTE

What is the Moral significance and demands of TRUTH?

Father John A. Hardon S.J., one of the 20th Centuries most esteemed Theologians, explains it clearly and precisely:

Truth is [1] the condition for grace [2] it is the source of grace [3] it is the channel of grace [4] it is the Divinely Ordained requirement of grace.” End Quotes

BENEDICT XVI
“Their cannot be your truth and my truth or there would be no truth”

Please understand that I’m not being negative here; but the FACT of the matter is that because they don’t have God’s Singular Truths per defined issue; and many of them are not even seeking it; GOD imposes His Penalty of BLOCKED RIGHT understanding from them. … Hence the thousands of DIFFERING Protestant churches EACH with its own faith understanding

2 Peter 1: 18-21
[20] Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

Blessings,

PJM

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Wannano:

One question my son asked me, and I had to admit I did not know the answer: a heretic is a baptized Catholic who has chosen to deny certain central dogmas of the Faith (Luther having been a good example).

But what is someone who was raised in a protestant group, never baptized Catholic, and simply believes as they do because they don’t know any better? What category do they fall into? Heretic? Schismatic?

As I understand it the CC now calls these people, myself included, “brothers and sisters in Christ.”

That’s incorrect. “Separated brethren” is what the CC now calls these people.

On July 9 in a post “are Protestants brothers and sisters in Christ” you replied “yes.”

From Conflict to Communion Chapter 5. "(Protestants ) to be rightly called brothers and sisters in Christ),

Sorry, I don’t know how to cut and paste .

That’s quite right; they are brothers and sisters - of a sort.

As I have pointed out in many, many posts, the relationship is qualified by the word “separated” and it is technically incorrect to omit that important term.

In fairness, I think you’ve been shown this about a thousand times, even with the citation from the catechism thrown in a few times, if I remember correctly. Yet you continue to mis-cite as you have in post 15 or so of this very thread.

Frankly, it could be easily interpreted as an example of the very behavior critiqued in the thread title.

 

[CatholicSpirit]

That is true, the second half of my remarks were pretty important regarding reaching a consensus in various areas. If we boast about Saints they do not consider, things are pretty unusual for them. Hindus have approached me saying, “Jesus is a Saint in our faith and we celebrate Christmas.” If we can do that, how can it be hard for Catholics, Jewish, and Islamic peoples to focus on Prophets with Christians?

 

[Lara]

These are some reasons I believe Protestants won’t listen:

1. Mental laziness.(In order to understand properly, they’d have to spend a lot of time studying.)
2. Pride. They are concerned that they will have to up their game, stop sinning, especially sexually sinning. They may have to recognize they’ve been wrong for a long time.
3. Fear of conflict ie. they can’t debate. Fear of a changed relationship with their spouse or family, or fear of losing friends in their church circles.

The good news is that anger is often the beginning of growth.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I don’t think it’s particularly “mentally lazy” to not want to debate, or that one skips debates out of “fear of conflict”.

I myself feel that debates on religion are not a good use of my time and energy. I appreciate that maybe some other Catholics feel called to do this and see it as a good use of their time.

My question is whether these Protestants that said Catholics are arguing with were really interested in debating about religion, or were they just in some other arena where they didn’t expect some zealous Catholic to pop out and start hassling them. I run into people all over the Internet who try to provoke others into religious or political debates. I generally ignore it and don’t take the bait, but many others feel they need to make some sort of stand to “defend their faith” or whatever. It’s pretty easy for things to escalate from there.

I am sure there are some who would call me mentally lazy, closed - minded or afraid of conflict or afraid of being wrong because I wouldn’t debate with them. I’ve had people right on this forum send me huge long wall-of-text PMs wanting to argue about this or that and I have less than zero desire to engage with them. Protestants who likewise don’t want to engage are acting reasonably.

 

[Reuben_J]

I do not argue much as it does not achieve any fruitful and constructive purpose. If a person persists not to even listen to your explanantion, it can be exasperating and draining to the mind without achieving anything.

I am first and foremost a witness - I’ll be glad to explain my belief and my religious experience and personal conversion.

Thus a very anti-Catholic Protestant, to me, is an anti-thesis to what I stand for. I would not be too much interested with such people unless thry are interested to talk.

I have no Protestant background and what I know about them probably more from CAF online discussion. From what I observed, the category of Protestants that you mentioned probably those who do believe that the Catholic Church started around the fourth century.

There is really no use telling such people that we gave the Bible or that Peter was the first Pope.

I think with such people, let it go and perhaps be nice and charitable to them because Christian love in not just their domain. I wonder what they think if they see Catholics being loving and knowledgable about the Bible? Those are the fruits of the Holy Spirit, and if the Catholic Church is false, she would not produce such people.

Just a thought.

 

[tweedlealice]

Salutations,
We call them SEPARATED BRETHREN! They protested legitimate wrongs of the church. Our church has recognized Luther as being correct on some of his 99 issues.,
There are devout Protestants, who love God w every breath of their being.,There are Catholics, who fake it.On judgement day, do you feel a devout Protestant missionary, bringing faith to pagans and is martyred, will go anywhere but heaven?
You know the joy of finding a relationship w Christ.
The scriptures come alive in your soul. If you lived out in the country w/o a car. Your only contact w God is your scripture & prayer. Then, a small Protestant Church is started. You’ll have contact w them. Jesus is where 2 or more meet in His Name. You wouldn’t find joy in fellowship w like believers?? When you can get to a Catholic mass, you’re there.
If Communion is served in a Protestant Church, you need not share in this.,
All denominations go up and down. It’s our hearts living for God and loving God that matters.
He said, in OT,” YOUR TRADITIONS AND HOLOCAUSTS ARE AN ABOMINATION TO ME! WHAT I WANT IS THE CIRCUMCISION OF YOUR HEART!!”
You have been studying LOGOS. God’s written laws. There is RAMOS, which is God’s word for YOU! He guides us individually as children and collectively w religion…
Lord, Jeremiah 29/11 says,”You have a plan for us. A plan w/o evil. It has a future and a purpose.”
Guide us w Your teachings to truth. As Your word says,” THE TRUTH AHALL SET US FREE!”
I’m Christs love,
Tweedlealice

 

[Lou2U]

Start with the knowledge that they hold their faith as dear to them as you do yours and be respectful of that. Remember no-one has to listen to you on anything. Be polite, courteous and charitable. Don’t make assumptions about them or act as though you are superior because your faith is ‘right’.

To be honest, some of the responses on this thread highlights quite well why certain Protestants don’t want to listen. Some uncharitable assertions going around, that’s for sure.

 

[7_Sorrows]

There is a woman who attends my daughter-in-law’s Bible study which is occasionally
at her house. I am Catholic. I just watch the video, but don’t participate in the study itself since I didn’t buy a book they are using. They are all protestants. This particular
woman constantly is talking as though she I the authority on everything in the Bible and how it is interpreted. She is constantly throwing barbs at the Catholic Church and
untruths. For instance, she said Sunday the church was growing in size until it was legalized
around 400 a.d. and then it started decreasing in number. She also says the Catholic church did not want people to read the Bible and that Mary was not a perpetual virgin.
She aggravates me so much.

 

[Wannano]

Start with the knowledge that they hold their faith as dear to them as you do yours and be respectful of that. Remember no-one has to listen to you on anything. Be polite, courteous and charitable. Don’t make assumptions about them or act as though you are superior because your faith is ‘right’.

To be honest, some of the responses on this thread highlights quite well why certain Protestants don’t want to listen. Some uncharitable assertions going around, that’s for sure.

If this attitude would characterize Catholics on this forum I know my ears would be more open. It’s not that we just won’t listen, it is more that what I see does not match up with what I hear. And I need to add, I have contact with two very good priests that I admire and they certainly do not subscribe to the attitudes prevalent here.

Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that at the time of the Reformation it was the hierarchy that was anti-Protestant and not the laity. In 2017 it seems that is reversed and it is scaring many Catholics whose faith is based in smug superiority.