Debunking Zerinus Blog, Do Catholics pray to Mary?

[twosweetgirls]

De Maria for President.

 

[zerinus]

I 'll let reasonable people make that judgement.

Agreed!

zerinus

 

[Wampa]

Your Church was established by Joseph Smith and a false angel named Moroni. What is the root of "moron"i?

For the record, this kind of uncharitable jab is uncalled for. I think we’ve got the winning argument here. Why shoot ourselves in the foot with cheap shots that do nothing to bring people in, but plenty to turn people off?

 

[Church_Militant]

For the record, this kind of uncharitable jab is uncalled for. I think we’ve got the winning argument here. Why shoot ourselves in the foot with cheap shots that do nothing to bring people in, but plenty to turn people off?

 

[Erich]

The key word here is “vain”. Our repetitious prayers to the Virgin Mary are in accordance with the Scriptures

From The Scandal of the Decades

If it were wrong to use repetitive prayers, Jesus certainly would not have done it. Yet in the garden of Gethsemane, he spoke the same prayer three times: “Leaving them again, he went away and prayed for the third time, saying the same words” (Matt. 26:44). We cannot think of this repetition as anything but heartfelt.

Similarly, in the Old Testament, parts of Psalm 118 are structured around the repeated phrase “His steadfast love endures forever,” and the book of Daniel presents the three men in the fiery furnace constantly repeating the phrase “Sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever” (Dan. 3:52–88). God looks favorably on their prayers and answers them in their time of need (Ps. 118:21; Dan. 3:94–95).

In the New Testament, the book of Revelation describes how the very worship of God in heaven includes words of holy praise that are repeated without end. The four living creatures, gathered around God’s throne, “never cease to sing, ‘Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!’”(Rev. 4:8). Although trying to manipulate God by vain repetition is always wrong, proper repetitious prayer is very biblical and pleasing to God.

…

On another level, John Paul II encouraged us to think of the repetition of Hail Marys within the context of a relationship of love. I may tell my wife “I love you” several times a day. Sometimes I say these words to her as I am going out the door for work in the morning. Other times I whisper them just before we fall asleep at night. On special occasions I may write these words in a card. When we are out to dinner, I may look her in the eyes as I say, “I love you.” Although she has heard me repeat these same words to her thousands of times, never once has she complained, “Stop saying the same thing over and over again!”

 

[trustinyou]

Posted by ** zerinus**
That is absolutely wrong, and “anathema” to the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the “other gospel” you were referring to, not Mormonism. Jesus is the only one who by His sufferings atoned, or ever could atone for the sins of the world; no one else ever could or did. The reason why He was able to do that was because He was a divine being. No mortal ever did or could have accomplished that. That just shows how false, how abominable and wicked and evil apostate Christian doctrine can be.

zerinus

I have a question for you Zerinus. tell me,how does the catholic church get it wrong for over 1500 yrs,and it took an excommuncated monk to get it right? (and from what i’ve read, he even had a devotion to Mary)

 

[Goth_Catholic]

English is such a poor language for describing the things of God.

Amen. Not only that but english translations of the bible have produced so many errors. I’m glad I finally discovered that Gabriel truely did call Mary “full of grace” when he greeted her.

 

[dolphinlove]

De Maria for President.

I think he deserves a fan club!

 

[cranster]

Amen. Not only that but english translations of the bible have produced so many errors. I’m glad I finally discovered that Gabriel truely did call Mary “full of grace” when he greeted her.

Gabriel said to Mary “Chaire, kecharitomene”… “Hail, Full of Grace”.

There are alot of modern english translations of kecharitomene as “Highly favored one”. When St. Jerome started the Vulgate in 382 and translated the Greek into Latin, He used “gratiae plena”. “Full of Grace”.

The word “Chaire”…“Hail” was a word that was used in deference to royalty as in “Hail Caesar!”.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Gabriel said to Mary “Chaire, kecharitomene”… “Hail, Full of Grace”.

There are alot of modern english translations of kecharitomene as “Highly favored one”. When St. Jerome started the Vulgate in 382 and translated the Greek into Latin, He used “gratiae plena”. “Full of Grace”.

The word “Chaire”…“Hail” was a word that was used in deference to royalty as in “Hail Caesar!”.

I knew everything except that “Chaire” was used for royality.

Oh my lord… the bible should have never been translated into English.

 

[cranster]

I knew everything except that “Chaire” was used for royality.

Oh my lord… the bible should have never been translated into English.

Tim Staples mentioned that on The Journy Home. He said that “Aposmes”, I’m not sure of the right spelling, would have been the common greeting, not Chaire.

 

[cranster]

Here’s another one.

In John 2:4 the original translation is literally “What to you and to me Woman”. The greek word for woman is “Gune”.
It was the same word used in Genesis 3:15, revelation 12:1 and John 19:26-27.

Jesus used “Gune” in John 2:4 the same way it was used in the other Scriptural references to Woman. It was used to reference Himself as the new Adam and His mother as the new Eve. Thus beginning His public ministry, and the road to Calvary. It was not used as I’ve seen protestants use it as though Jesus said with a sneer on his face in anticipation of the honor Catholics would place on her. "What is it to you… woman? "
As though He was rebuking her and putting her in her place so protestants could justify their antipathy towards her. In any English translation of that Scripture it must be viewed as a positive rather than a negative because Jesus would never… ever… under any circumstance break the 5th commandment and dishonor His Mother!!! It is blasphemy to even suggest such a thing!!!

You’ve gotta love English and the way it’s used to twist original meanings to support agenda’s.

Sorry, I don’t want to derail this thread any further, but I’ve actually seen protestants use Scripture to show that “Jesus didn’t always speak so highly of His mother.” WRONG!!!

 

[fellowChristian]

VAIN AND REPITITIOUS PRAYER

Rev. 4:8 **
And the four living creatures had each of them six wings; and round about and within they are full of eyes. And they rested not day and night, saying: Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.**

The angels never stop praying! They repeat their prayers!

1 Thess. 5:17

Pray without ceasing.

**
St. Paul says don’t stop praying!**

James 5:16
Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the **continual prayer of a just man availeth much. **

That means I can ask you to pray for me! A “just man” is a rightous man. Rightous men are in heaven and their prayers “availeth much”!

**Ephesians 3 **

14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,

15 from whom every **family in heaven and on earth **derives its name,

We are a family even after death!

Luke 9:30
And behold two men were talking with him. And they were **Moses and Elias, **

**
Jesus talks with Moses and Elijah long after they’ve died!. They are more alive than the saints on earth.**
**
Matthew 22:32**

I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

**Our souls live forever! **

Matthew 15:4
Honour thy father and mother: And: He that shall curse father or mother, let him die the death.

Even after death of our parents we should give honor to our father and our mother.

Luke 1:41

And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
And whence is this to me, that the **mother of my Lord **should come to me?

The Holy Ghost spoke through Elizabeth telling Mary that among all women she is holy and so is her womb.For that is what “blessed” means. And the Holy Ghost working through Elizabeth calls Mary the mother of God.
Jesus is God.

Luke 1:48
Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
**
Mary was under divine inspiration when she uttered this prophecy. Long before Joseph Smith was even born.
And look she was right!

John 2:3**

And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine.
And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.
His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.
Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three measures apiece.
Jesus saith to them: Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

** Mary intercedes on behalf of the Bride and the Bridegroom at their wedding!

And look her Son honors her!

The waiters listen to Mary and they do exactly as Jesus says, they fill them to the brim,

they follow Him perfectly!

So should we.**

 

[catharina]

Since we become brothers and sisters of Christ and children of the same Father, it’s hard to imagine anything respectful about insulting and demeaning Mary who alone is Jesus’ mother.

 

[De_Maria]

For the record,

For the record, next time that you have a difference with a Catholic who is debating a nonCatholic, it is prudent to send a private message rather than give the appearance of disunity.

this kind of uncharitable jab is uncalled for.

Are you upset because I called a fictitious being a moron?

I think we’ve got the winning argument here.

I know we’ve got the winning argument.

Why shoot ourselves in the foot with cheap shots that do nothing to bring people in, but plenty to turn people off?

Does this turn you off?

But lets look at Scripture…

                                            [1 Corinthians 4:16](http://www.whereinthebible.org/index.php?bookId=53&chapterId=4&verseId=16&page=1#x)
                                             Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.

…and see how Jesus and Paul, our examples in the religious life would respond to the ridiculous:

                                            [Galatians 3:1](http://www.whereinthebible.org/index.php?bookId=55&chapterId=3&verseId=1&page=1#x)
                                             O senseless Galatians, who hath bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been set forth, crucified among you? 


                                            [Matthew 23:13](http://www.whereinthebible.org/index.php?bookId=47&chapterId=23&verseId=13&page=1#x)
                                             But woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men, for you yourselves do not enter in; and those that are going in, you suffer not to enter. 


                                             [Titus 1:13](http://www.whereinthebible.org/index.php?bookId=63&chapterId=1&verseId=13&page=1#x)
                    
                     This testimony is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

So, tell me, when someone belittles my faith, why should I follow you rather than Jesus or Paul?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Penitus]

Here’s another one.

In John 2:4 the original translation is literally “What to you and to me Woman”. The greek word for woman is “Gune”.
It was the same word used in Genesis 3:15, revelation 12:1 and John 19:26-27.

Jesus used “Gune” in John 2:4 the same way it was used in the other Scriptural references to Woman. It was used to reference Himself as the new Adam and His mother as the new Eve. Thus beginning His public ministry, and the road to Calvary. It was not used as I’ve seen protestants use it as though Jesus said with a sneer on his face in anticipation of the honor Catholics would place on her. "What is it to you… woman? "
As though He was rebuking her and putting her in her place so protestants could justify their antipathy towards her. In any English translation of that Scripture it must be viewed as a positive rather than a negative because Jesus would never… ever… under any circumstance break the 5th commandment and dishonor His Mother!!! It is blasphemy to even suggest such a thing!!!

You’ve gotta love English and the way it’s used to twist original meanings to support agenda’s.

I am Catholic, and love Mary, but Jesus also used that same Greek word “Gune” in reference to the woman at the well in John’s gospel. Don’t make it into something it’s not. That word isn’t ONLY used in reference to Mary.

Thanks.
-Matt.

 

[Wampa]

De Maria,

Re your scripture passages: since they don’t really back up whatever it is you’re trying to prove, I don’t have any response to them. I get that you’re claiming that Titus’ “Wherefore rebuke them sharply” gives you carte blanche to say whatever you want to people, but it doesn’t. Unless you care more about winning debates than winning converts. More on that in a minute…

It doesn’t matter if it turns me off, it’s that it turns non-Catholics off. Who wants to be swayed by someone who can’t stick to the essence of the debate and has to resort to childish insults?

How about a little respect for other people’s closely-held beliefs? That doesn’t mean you agree with them or that you can’t tell them that they’re wrong and why, it means you speak with respect and not like a 6-year-old with 6-year-old level insults being hurled at the other person’s beliefs.

I suggest a reading of this:

Are You ‘The Catholic Answer Man’?
Avoiding the Sin of Apologetical Pride
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0209fea4.asp

“Pride can also involve an arrogant dismissal of others and their perspectives. Of course the Catholic apologist thinks Catholicism true. He even thinks it better than non-Catholic religions. But that says nothing about the worth of the Catholic as a person in comparison with his non-Catholic neighbor. Our Catholic faith is God’s gift, not a personal accomplishment. Being Catholic does not mean we have nothing to learn from non-Catholics or that non-Catholics are by definition unintelligent for not having seen the truth of Catholicism.”

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Yes. We pray to Mary for intercession. We pray to Mary to praise God’s Creation. We pray to Mary because we love her.

What’s the problem?

There isn’t?

Lets see, first, Jesus chose Mary from all women of all times to be His Mother. Jesus. That means that Jesus was her child, lived in her womb, got nourishment from her through an umbilical cord, sucked at her breast when He was born, PRAYED to her for nourishment when He was hungry, when He was thirsty and when He was cold or hot.

Oh, you don’t understand the word “pray”. The archaic meaning of the word “pray” means to “request”. We still use the archaic meaning because being the original Church of Christ and very ancient, we still use the archaic meaning. In fact, that meaning for the word “pray”, “to request”, is not archaic to us.

Cont’d

The Teaching Church has not been afraid to speak of prayer *to *the Saints in the past - prayer with them (a phrase often heard today) is not a retraction of that, but an addition to it.​

The Church’s practice of prayer does not have the Saints as the “goal” of that praying - God, alone, is the “goal” of all prayer. How we think of prayer to God & His Saints depends very much on our mental picture of the process - & our MP affects how we explain it to ourselves; whether to accept the idea, or to reject it.

1. The Saints are not an obstacle, like a hurdle in a race,which our prayers must get over, or through, or beyond, if God is to get them. Nor are God & His Saints like two mangers, between which we like donkeys must choose. This is spatial thinking, & Christian prayer is no more spatial than it is speckled or two-legged.
2. IMHO, it may confuse the issue to speak of Our Lord “praying” to Mary in any sense - I don’t think the issue is one of language, so much as of what the language means, & is thought to mean.
3. Any hint that Jesus is (so to speak) “tied to her apron-strings” is apt to be highly troublesome; because it can be all too easily taken to mean that she is His rival, instead of His being her son & also her Lord. Catholics don’t always distinguish between Christ in the state of humiliation, & Christ in the state of Glory - I think we need to do so, if our understanding of Him is to be healthily Biblical.

 

[Wampa]

So, tell me, when someone belittles my faith, why should I follow you rather than Jesus or Paul?

I re-read the posts and missed this line. I now get where you’re trying to go.

So your argument is “But Mom, he made fun of my faith first!!!” Very 6-year-old. While it’s understandable to want to respond in kind, I’d argue that you should take the high road. There are many others silently listening (reading). Even if your Mormon combatant here deserves your harshness, it affects all the others listening, too. Are you trying to sway them? Or do you just want to win the argument?

Bring 'em in, don’t push 'em away, that’s my argument. But if you want to use some selected scripture to justify your incharitability, go for it.

 

[De_Maria]

I re-read the posts and missed this line. I now get where you’re trying to go.

So your argument is “But Mom, he made fun of my faith first!!!”

No. Please stick to the issue. The above characterization of the issue constitutes a straw man fallacy:

Description of Straw Man

*The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of “reasoning” has the following pattern: *

1. 
   *]
   *]Person A has position X.
   *]Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
   *]Person B attacks position Y.
   *]Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
   *This sort of “reasoning” is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. *
   nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
   

   Very 6-year-old. While it’s understandable to want to respond in kind, I’d argue that you should take the high road.

   It is always the highroad to debunk the false:
   
   2 Tim 4:2 *Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine.**3 For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: **4 And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. **5 But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.
   *
   

   There are many others silently listening (reading). Even if your Mormon combatant here deserves your harshness, it affects all the others listening, too. Are you trying to sway them? Or do you just want to win the argument?

   Some are won by silence, some by harshness. I don’t sit here and try to guess which will do which. I write as I believe the Spirit moves me to write.
   

   Bring 'em in, don’t push 'em away, that’s my argument.

   As yet, you have provided no argument. You are simply expressing YOUR preference.
   

   But if you want to use some selected scripture to justify your incharitability, go for it.

   Uncharitablility?
   
   Its not uncharitiablity to disclose that I believe that Joseph Smith was arrogant enough to give a hint of his “moronic” teachings by naming the supernatural being “Moroni”.
   
   Nor is it uncharitable to rebuke someone in good faith:
   
   *Proverbs 9
   • 8 Rebuke not a scorner lest he hate thee. Rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
   Nor is it uncharitable to seek to defend he truth.
   
   Proverbs 24
   25 They that rebuke him, shall be praised: and a blessing shall come upon them.
   
   Nor is it uncharitable to be zealous for God’s Word:
   
   Ecclesiasticus 51
   24 For I have determined to follow her: I have had a zeal for good, and shall not be confounded.
   
   Sincerely,
   
   De Maria