December Republican Primary Poll

[smndtupidisaftr]

The Libertarian party does not define libertarianism. Notice the use of capital letters.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Your theories sound good but do not actually work. Here is the Libertarian Party Platform on abortion:

**1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.**

I don’t own slaves but I will leave it up to your “conscientious consideration” whether you own slaves. Right. This is simply weasel wording to avoid the issue. You think that ‘leaving it up to individual consciousness’ would result in repealing Roe? Really?

Who legalized abortion in all states, individuals or government?

You think that legalizing drugs would not result in any increase? Really?

If you listen to the argument, the legalization of drugs at the federal level does not equate to legalizing of drugs nationwide.

The federal government of the US is the reason cartels are so powerful? Really?

Doing a fine job down there on the border selling them guns and keeping them out aren’t they?

We’re all the world’s greatest expert on our own opinions but I’d really like some facts. You can see a microcosm of legalizing drugs based on what’s happened in the counties or states that totally relaxed the rules. It was a disaster and many of these relaxed rules have been tightened up substantially.

No need for federal laws then is there?

Now do I think we should jail someone for smoking a joint in his home? No. But that doesn’t mean I think heroin should be sold at Walgreens.

Does the heroin addict belong in jail or hospital?

 

[gilliam]

The Libertarian party does not define libertarianism. Notice the use of capital letters.

The Republican and Libertarian parties differ on a variety of freedom issues. These would include:
Open immigration (Republicans oppose/Libertarians support)
Drug legalization (Republicans oppose/Libertarians support)
Prostitution (Republicans want it illegal/Libertarians want it legal)
Iraq War (Most Republicans support/Most Libertarians oppose)
Gay Marriage (Republicans oppose/Libertarians support)
Abortion (Most Republicans oppose/Libertarians take no position in their platform)
Minimum wage (Many Republicans support/Libertarians oppose)
Graduated income tax (Most Republicans support/Libertarians oppose)
Restrictions on Gambling (Republicans support/Libertarians oppose)

Read more: wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_difference_between_republican_and_libertarian_party#ixzz1h14089Uo

 

[LisaA]

Who legalized abortion in all states, individuals or government?
If you listen to the argument, the legalization of drugs at the federal level does not equate to legalizing of drugs nationwide.
Doing a fine job down there on the border selling them guns and keeping them out aren’t they?
No need for federal laws then is there?
Does the heroin addict belong in jail or hospital?

Answering questions with questions. Very effective at deflecting criticism. But not very effective in convincing me that electing Libertarians would reverse the advances made by the pro life movement. Our gains are slow but the trend is positive!

There is much about the Libertarian platform I agree with. But it is internally inconsistent by punting on the abortion issue while stating that the duty of the government is to protect our human rights. I think the reality is that the party knows that if there is a strong pro-life message they will lose a substantial section the party which cares only about the economic issues (or they want drugs legalized). I think pragmatism is a great thing and I completely understand the deal with the devil on this issue. But don’t try to have it both ways…you can’t waffle on abortion and think that because you won’t choose my lightbulbs I’ll look the other way.

Lisa

 

[bbarrick8383]

Answering questions with questions. Very effective at deflecting criticism. But not very effective in convincing me that electing Libertarians would reverse the advances made by the pro life movement. Our gains are slow but the trend is positive!

It’s not an attempt to deflect criticism but an attempt to get you to answer those questions for yourself.

Government gave us abortion.

Government gave us overcrowded prisons full of people who need medical treatment.

Government sold guns to the cartels that were used to kill innocent Americans and refuse to protect our border all the while making sure every other country out there has their own borders protected.

I know you don’t like my questions, but they really are not an attempt to deflect criticism but to get you to answer them honestly to make your own decisions. That being said, I have one more:

If the current two party system were Libertarian/Republican vs. Democrat/Republican, where would we be on Roe V. Wade?

 

[gilliam]

Government gave us abortion.

No, murder, abortion, stealing and other sins came with human kind’s fallen nature. It didn’t take government to establish them. Government can outlaw them or leave them be. We will not abolish these and other grave acts on our own.

A government that leaves citizens to fend for themselves (as advocated by strict Libertarianism) is called anarchy.

 

[LisaA]

It’s not an attempt to deflect criticism but an attempt to get you to answer those questions for yourself.

Government gave us abortion.

Government gave us overcrowded prisons full of people who need medical treatment.

Government sold guns to the cartels that were used to kill innocent Americans and refuse to protect our border all the while making sure every other country out there has their own borders protected.

I know you don’t like my questions, but they really are not an attempt to deflect criticism but to get you to answer them honestly to make your own decisions. That being said, I have one more:

If the current two party system were Libertarian/Republican vs. Democrat/Republican, where would we be on Roe V. Wade?

Government gave us abortion? Are you kidding? Abortion is one of the oldest procedures in recorded history. The original Hippocratic Oath contains a reference to abortion. It is not a product of a 1973 Supreme Court case.

Roe also gives you a future look at what would happen if drugs were legalized (and prostitution and kiddie porn and all the other social deviencies Libertarians want to protect) How many abortions before Roe? (and mind you abortion WAS legal in a number of states including Oregon so it wasn’t illegal in the US) How many abortions AFTER Roe? It’s legal, it’s easy to access…voila! More of it. Ditto with drugs, porn, etc. Keeping something illegal DOES discourage it. Do you think there would be more theft, assault, rape or murder if these acts weren’t illegal?

It is a canard that the prisons are full of addicts who need treatment not incarceration. They do not incarcerate someone for smoking a joint. The jails ARE overcrowded but not because casual drug users or even addicts are being tossed inside. They are overcrowded with sellers, traffickers, meth cookers, and those who committed crimes to get money for their addictions. And no, legalizing drugs wouldn’t suddenly mean meth addicts aren’t stealing everything not nailed down because addicts tend to be poor employees and in fact most don’t have real jobs. Hence the need to steal to support the habit. The legalization would simply mean MORE addicts preying upon society to get their fix. I suspect Libertarians just wouldn’t be down with free heroin for all right?

The whole gun thing and F&F etc is a perfect example of the government with an agenda that wenk amok. I do not think our activities on this side of the border are the reason that Mexico is an armed camp. They have had generations of corrupt politicians, police and governments so it’s a free for all. It’s not anything to do with what’s going on in the USA. Believe me I’m all for protecting the border with Smith & Wesson. But I’m not under the illusion that anything we do here has an impact on the cartels. Other than killing them as we did with some of the Columbians, we’re pretty much on the defensive.

As to your last question, I have no clue what you mean.
Lisa

 

[bbarrick8383]

No, murder, abortion,

government,

It didn’t take government to establish them. Government can outlaw them or leave them be. We will not abolish these and other grave acts on our own.

You know what I mean though, government gave us 50 million abortions since Roe v. Wade. Do you dispute that, although there may have been abortions. There would not have been 50 million abortions?

A government that leaves citizens to fend for themselves (as advocated by strict Libertarianism) is called anarchy.

Except that anarchists advocate no government. Libertarians like Ron Paul advocate for constitutional conservatism, which gives us the Federal government restricted to it’s duties as outlined in the constitution. If we want to add/edit/delete then there is a process as outlined in the constitution as well.

All other powers are left to the people and the states, as outlined in the constitution.

 

[gilliam]

You know what I mean though, government gave us 50 million abortions since Roe v. Wade. Do you dispute that, although there may have been abortions. There would not have been 50 million abortions?

Government allowed abortions (like what Libertarians want)

Except that anarchists advocate no government. Libertarians like Ron Paul advocate for constitutional conservatism,

Many of them are States Rights folks. That to its extreme is to get rid of the constitution and go back to the days of a confederation of states (read Lew Rockwell)

 

[LisaA]

You know what I mean though, government gave us 50 million abortions since Roe v. Wade. Do you dispute that, although there may have been abortions. There would not have been 50 million abortions?

Except that anarchists advocate no government. Libertarians like Ron Paul advocate for constitutional conservatism, which gives us the Federal government restricted to it’s duties as outlined in the constitution. If we want to add/edit/delete then there is a process as outlined in the constitution as well.

All other powers are left to the people and the states, as outlined in the constitution.

Yes fine in theory but when you read the Libertarian party platform they do not want restrictions on
abortion
porn
drugs
prostitution
devient sexual practices
So you suggest the Constitution protects these activities? The whole problem with Libertarianism is that it tries to be too many things to too many people. You just are not going to capture social conservatives who do not want the promotion of social deviency. As I said, you’ve made a deal with the devil to keep those whom I’d call the Hedonists in your camp while simultaneously remaining silent about the horrors of abortion, prostitution, human trafficking, drug addiction.

Libertarin would work in a perfect world where people engaged in whatever behaviors they enjoyed and not interfering with the lives of others. That’s not reality. As Bill O’Reilly says when someone gives an unrealistic platitude…quit chasing leprechauns.

Lisa
Lisa

 

[bbarrick8383]

Government allowed abortions (like what Libertarians want)

This is no different than:

Government allowed abortions (like many Republicans want)

Many of them are States Rights folks. That to its extreme is to get rid of the constitution and go back to the days of a confederation of states (read Lew Rockwell)

States rights does not mean no constitution.

You like federal government so much, you got abortion, enjoy.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Yes fine in theory but when you read the Libertarian party platform they do not want restrictions on
abortion
porn
drugs
prostitution
devient sexual practices
So you suggest the Constitution protects these activities? The whole problem with Libertarianism is that it tries to be too many things to too many people. You just are not going to capture social conservatives who do not want the promotion of social deviency. As I said, you’ve made a deal with the devil to keep those whom I’d call the Hedonists in your camp while simultaneously remaining silent about the horrors of abortion, prostitution, human trafficking, drug addiction.

Libertarin would work in a perfect world where people engaged in whatever behaviors they enjoyed and not interfering with the lives of others. That’s not reality. As Bill O’Reilly says when someone gives an unrealistic platitude…quit chasing leprechauns.

Lisa
Lisa

I’m very conservative when it comes to my states, however very libertarian when it comes to the federal government.

 

[gilliam]

You like federal government so much, you got abortion, enjoy.

Doesn’t make any sense. It is like saying you like federal government so much, you got alchololics.

Your never going to end abortion by getting rid of the legal structure that can enforce its prohibition.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Government allowed abortions (like what Libertarians want)

This libertarian dose not. Let’s not create straw men.

 

[scipio337]

This libertarian dose not. Let’s not create straw men.

Perhaps you’re drawing some distiction between the Libertarian Party, and libertarian ideas?

From a libertarian (small l) perspective their ideas run the gamut, from libertarian socialism to anarchist libertarians.

For the Libertarian Party in the USA, there’s been a deep running division between free for all anarchist, night watchment minarchist, social conservatives…

When it comes to abortion, there is no formal stance from the Libertarian Party. They largely leave it up to the individual.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Perhaps you’re drawing some distiction between the Libertarian Party, and libertarian ideas?

Exactly.

From a libertarian (small l) perspective their ideas run the gamut, from libertarian socialism to anarchist libertarians.

I was thinking more the gamut between minarchists and anarcho-capitalists. Socialists are not libertarians.

When it comes to abortion, there is no formal stance from the Libertarian Party. They largely leave it up to the individual.

But many libertarians support the criminalization of it.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Doesn’t make any sense. It is like saying you like federal government so much, you got alchololics.

Your never going to end abortion by getting rid of the legal structure that can enforce its prohibition.

If federal government had been kept to a minimum in our lives like it was supposed to, they never would have heard Roe v. Wade and forced abortion upon the states.

Social conservatives and liberals are fighting for what they believe the federal government should be doing without realizing that it’s just screwing up the system and making things worse.

Instead, why don’t we just stick to the plan and get rid of Roe v. Wade and all of these other things the government should not be doing in the first place.

 

[gilliam]

If federal government had been kept to a minimum in our lives like it was supposed to, they never would have heard Roe v. Wade and forced abortion upon the states.

Your assuming the states kept it outlawed. That is a big assumption.

You assume mankind if left on it’s is a wonderful, peaceful, gentile speces. I have read history, I do not.

Instead, why don’t we just stick to the plan and get rid of Roe v. Wade and all of these other things the government should not be doing in the first place.

To do that, we have to elect a Republican congress and a Repubican president and then pressure them to do it.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Your assuming the states kept it outlawed. That is a big assumption.

It’s better than what we have now.

You assume mankind if left on it’s is a wonderful, peaceful, gentile speces. I have read history, I do not.

I am making no assumption, and I don’t have to read history to know better.

To do that, we have to elect a Republican congress and a Repubican president and then pressure them to do it.

We have to elect pro-life Republicans who will nominate pro-life supreme court justices. Which is why I will vote pro-life anything but democrat just about. I just believe Republicans have been wrong in some other areas and instead of letting them keep on breaking it and the Democrats trying to fix it with more big government, let’s just take the whole damn thing away from them before they mess it all up…which considering our current fiscal status, they aren’t far away from doing.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Your theories sound good but do not actually work. Here is the Libertarian Party Platform on abortion:

**1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.**

I don’t own slaves but I will leave it up to your “conscientious consideration” whether you own slaves. Right. This is simply weasel wording to avoid the issue. You think that ‘leaving it up to individual consciousness’ would result in repealing Roe? Really?

You think that legalizing drugs would not result in any increase? Really?

The federal government of the US is the reason cartels are so powerful? Really?

We’re all the world’s greatest expert on our own opinions but I’d really like some facts. You can see a microcosm of legalizing drugs based on what’s happened in the counties or states that totally relaxed the rules. It was a disaster and many of these relaxed rules have been tightened up substantially.

Now do I think we should jail someone for smoking a joint in his home? No. But that doesn’t mean I think heroin should be sold at Walgreens.

Lisa (looking for some facts)

Who gives a hoot for the Libertarian Party platform. Parties are for people who cannot think for themselves. I am a (little “l”) libertarian, which opens me up to look at the best candidate which supports the positions I believe in, regardless of party. As a Catholic, I find that both the Democrats and Republicans are equally horrid on the issues I find important. At least the GOP is consistent in their pro-life message and the Democrats are splendidly HORRID on it. They are both equally bad in terms of fiscal responsibility, foreign policy, monetary policy, entitlement spending, corporate welfare, etc… IN fact, you can say that it is monetary policy that makes them both equally aweful. Both of them are equally addicted to the Fed’s imaginary money.