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Luke-Jr
Guest
Except when such a discipline teaches heresy.
Which does not help your point at all. This refers to the T.L.M., not the N.O.
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Anna_Elizabeth
Guest
Does anyone want to see what Benedict XVI (then Cardinal Ratzinger), had to say on the subject of the current state of the liturgy in 1997? His most quoted statement begins, “I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy…”
If I can only get this link correct, you can read more at:
latin-mass-society.org/ratz.htm
I have seen this quote at various places over the last year or two. It is originally from his memoirs, the English title of which is Milestones, available from Ignatius Press.
He has written so much and on so many different aspects of Catholicism, that we probably should spend some time reading to get a more complete background on our new Holy Father.
Anna
If I can only get this link correct, you can read more at:
latin-mass-society.org/ratz.htm
I have seen this quote at various places over the last year or two. It is originally from his memoirs, the English title of which is Milestones, available from Ignatius Press.
He has written so much and on so many different aspects of Catholicism, that we probably should spend some time reading to get a more complete background on our new Holy Father.
Anna
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usqueadmortem
Guest
Great link! Thanks! 
S
Swiss_Guard
Guest
I had a similar situation happen at daily Mass three weeks ago. A former parish priest who helps out when he’s able to help started talking about the need for an Indult for the Tridentine Mass, which is correct. We have some people at our parish who go to SSPX Masses, though I didn’t see any at this Mass.
He then said that the Tridentine Mass can only be said on certain occasions, that it’s not supposed to be said every day. I go to St. Mary’s Oratory in Rockford every now and then for the Tridentine Mass. It’s run by the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest, which only says the Tridentine Mass. I knew his statement to be a lie.
He went on to say how a concelebrated Mass brings more graces because every priest is offering a Mass. I’m thinking there’s still only one consecration, so how would this be different than having priests in the sanctuary or pew during a Tridentine Mass offering the prayers with the priest?
He finished by saying that it’s better to have one concelebrated Mass than having five or six Masses being said at side altars. I’m thinking I can’t think of a parish that actually has five priests in residence. Also, if there are six different priests consecrating six different hosts, there would be more graces.
I have a tremendous amount of respect for this priest, which is why this hurt me. He’s a biblical scholar and is very orthodox. However, he’s either Opus Dei or very influenced by Opus Dei, as our former pastor is Opus Dei. Opus Dei is vehemently opposed to the Tridentine Mass, which is one reason why I don’t trust Opus Dei. St. Josemaria Escriva only said the Tridentine Mass, so I can’t understand Opus Dei’s contempt of the Tridentine Mass. Opus Dei has fallen away from what St. Josemaria founded it to be if this is their attitude towards the Tridentine Mass.
He then said that the Tridentine Mass can only be said on certain occasions, that it’s not supposed to be said every day. I go to St. Mary’s Oratory in Rockford every now and then for the Tridentine Mass. It’s run by the Institute of Christ the King, Sovereign Priest, which only says the Tridentine Mass. I knew his statement to be a lie.
He went on to say how a concelebrated Mass brings more graces because every priest is offering a Mass. I’m thinking there’s still only one consecration, so how would this be different than having priests in the sanctuary or pew during a Tridentine Mass offering the prayers with the priest?
He finished by saying that it’s better to have one concelebrated Mass than having five or six Masses being said at side altars. I’m thinking I can’t think of a parish that actually has five priests in residence. Also, if there are six different priests consecrating six different hosts, there would be more graces.
I have a tremendous amount of respect for this priest, which is why this hurt me. He’s a biblical scholar and is very orthodox. However, he’s either Opus Dei or very influenced by Opus Dei, as our former pastor is Opus Dei. Opus Dei is vehemently opposed to the Tridentine Mass, which is one reason why I don’t trust Opus Dei. St. Josemaria Escriva only said the Tridentine Mass, so I can’t understand Opus Dei’s contempt of the Tridentine Mass. Opus Dei has fallen away from what St. Josemaria founded it to be if this is their attitude towards the Tridentine Mass.
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Primitive
Guest
I find it quite obnoxius to have a Mass concelebrated. If the Last Supper had only one Jesus…than why do we need two or more priest celebrating Mass. They are supposed to be acting “In Persona Christi”…it is about time they actually started acting like it and not like they “think” is better.
Well, I am throwing up my abuse flage here. I think it is lame and also a terrible distraction.
Well, I am throwing up my abuse flage here. I think it is lame and also a terrible distraction.
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Primitive
Guest
Here also is something I want everyone to notice:
The people building the tower of Babel were working AGAINST God and spoke the same language.
The people at the Latin Mass were/are working for God!
God confused the speach of those building the Tower of Babel because they were working for an evil cause.
God knows how people who speak the same language can work together so well, however, since they were doing evil, he confused their language.
God knowing this, also allowed the Catholic Church to speak Latin, because he knew that if we all spoke the same, we’d get along and be a more cohesive unit.
At my parish, they have both Spanish and English speaking Masses…it is SEPERATING the flock, not uniting it…the Spanish and English speaking people don’t bother to talk to each other, and that is SAD, because they are the same faith and the same parish…
Why do you think Great Britian and Australia are allies with us? Simple, we can communicate better! Everyone knows that when a husband and wife can’t communicate, the marriage suffers…same goes for the batallion who can’t communicate…it cost LIVES! And in the church, it is costing SOULS!!!
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usqueadmortem
Guest
Swiss Guard said:
Dear Swiss Guard,
I thoroughly approve of this post save for one thing. Although one can find pockets where Opus Dei is ardently opposed to the Tridentine Mass (perhaps where you are), I do not think it is fair to say that Opus Dei as a whole opposes the Tridentine Mass. There are many Opus Dei priests and members who ardently support the Tridentine Mass, and in general I think the whole groups tends in the traditional direction.
Usque.
R
robertaf
Guest
Greetings Church
Greetings Catholic Nerd,
I am a former parishioner of the Spokane Diocese. In my opinion, you have one of the finest Bishops in the Country. I have met him and I love Him. This Bishop is awesome when it comes to knowing what is happening in his Diocese and being fair, following the move of the Holy Spirit.
I happened to have been a member of St Paschals Parish, which is one of the best parishes I have ever been a member of, thanks to the Bishop and Fr Dan Wetzler.
I suppose you know that Spokane is the home of one of the best known schismatic (spelling) groups in the Church. I worked with folks from this group. They do not believe in Vatican II or any Pope since then. I bet you know the group I mean. I have had too much conversation with young folks from this Church not to recognize some of the dialogue. This is one of the things your Bishop has had to contend with. That is only one of the troubles that this good man needs your prayers for.
You said the Mass you attended was at the Cathedral. Do you think the Bishop did not give some sort of approval to the Priest who gave the homily you refer to?
I think it is good to get into prayer when you feel this offended.
You have a wonderful Diocese and a beautiful Bishop. I just want everyone to know this.
Greetings Catholic Nerd,
I am a former parishioner of the Spokane Diocese. In my opinion, you have one of the finest Bishops in the Country. I have met him and I love Him. This Bishop is awesome when it comes to knowing what is happening in his Diocese and being fair, following the move of the Holy Spirit.
I happened to have been a member of St Paschals Parish, which is one of the best parishes I have ever been a member of, thanks to the Bishop and Fr Dan Wetzler.
I suppose you know that Spokane is the home of one of the best known schismatic (spelling) groups in the Church. I worked with folks from this group. They do not believe in Vatican II or any Pope since then. I bet you know the group I mean. I have had too much conversation with young folks from this Church not to recognize some of the dialogue. This is one of the things your Bishop has had to contend with. That is only one of the troubles that this good man needs your prayers for.
You said the Mass you attended was at the Cathedral. Do you think the Bishop did not give some sort of approval to the Priest who gave the homily you refer to?
I think it is good to get into prayer when you feel this offended.
You have a wonderful Diocese and a beautiful Bishop. I just want everyone to know this.
B
benedictusoblat
Guest
How do you know? Were you involved with Archbishop Bugnini’s Consilium? This is just your opinion.
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usqueadmortem
Guest
Actually, ByzCath, Archbishop Bugnini explicity states that this was a goal of the New Mass in his The Reform of the Liturgy 1948-1972. I would suggest picking it up.
Also, Pope Paul VI, with good intentions at heart, was convinced that the Protestants would return to the Church in droves if this were done. He was unfortunately wrong.
Usque.
B
benedictusoblat
Guest
In matters of persecution, God allows each of us to drink from a glass that is full. I may not be worthy to suffer as you (or someone you know) has suffered. Perhaps that will come another day. But I am persecuted none the less when my ordinary will not respond to letters I send requesting the TLM be offered in accordance with the wishes of Pope John Paul II. I am persecuted none the less when I have to drive 100 miles to the nearest parish (in another diocese) in order to attend the TLM. I am persecuted when I have to leave my house at 5 AM in order to arrive for Mass which begins at 7:15. My persecution will end when the Church no longer looks upon me as some sort of Neanderthal and provides me with easy access to the TLM. Or perhaps my persecution will end one morning in a fiery crash on the highway. In any case, I pray to God that I will remain cheerfully faithful to this cause of working to preserve, protect and defend the traditional liturgy of the Western Church from unenlightened fools who seek to destroy it.I, for one, take great offense to the use of the term PERSECUTING…
YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT PERSECUTION IS!!!
When was the last time the door to your home was broken down and you were dragged off to prison because you prefer the Latin Rite?
When was the last time you were arrested for celebrating the Latin Rite Mass and you were deported to another country and did not see your wife or children for 15 years?
When was the last time you had to celebrate the Latin Rite Mass in the cellar of a home with someone guarding the windows so that the Secret Police did not find you and arrest you??
This has happened to friends and relatives of mine simply because they are Byzantine Rite Catholics.
YOU **need to THANK GOD that you live in this country where you can talk and act as freely as you do on this forum and not worry about disappearing in the middle of the night!**
As for your descriptions of those enduring persecution worse than I experience, I refer you to the sufferings endured by our English fathers during the reign of Elizabeth Ist. All of your terrors were applied then - and worse. At least in modern times the secret police of various countries were not known to publicly hang, disembowel, decapitate and quarter their victims and display their heads and quarters on various public venues. We can thank the early Anglicans for that special barbarity.
M
Mysty101
Guest
Thank you for your comments, and actual knowledge.
It is so unfortunate when a small percentage of people, wish the majority to conform to their way of thinking which is outside the norm.
And when their demands, (which are not in the best interest of the majority) are not met, they are so “hurt”.
And many of these same people ridicule not only others who wish to worship in a different approved movement of the Church, but also those who choose a different prayer posture than they have decided to be the most pious.
Yes, much prayer is needed
V
VociMike
Guest
Heck, I was just a kid then but even I remember that they had missals with the English translations right along with the Latin. That’s amazing that somebody could get the story of Babel so backwards! As well as assuming that everybody in the pews back then was an illiterate or uncurious dimwit.
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BillyT92679
Guest
It refers to the Liturgy itself, not necessarily the form of how the Mass is said.
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netmilsmom
Guest
A great Bishop in a wonderful Diocese! All the more reason to let one’s feelings be known. Getting into prayer heals the soul but not the problem. Bishops are busy, they can’t know every Homily given. The Bishop may have approved the priest but not the message. Those in the pews have been silent for a long time. Perhaps a note with just this quote…
“Those of you who stubbornly and foolishly cling to the Latin Mass are making yourselves obstacles to the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church! The Spirit is in charge! Not me, not you, and not even the pope! We must not fight reform any longer!”
would let the Bishop know that this priest is in need of some direction. With kindness and grace, a letter could be written.
Being proactive is not a sin.
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Luke-Jr
Guest
If so, it is still irrelevant since the problems with the N.O. are all (AFAIK) with the form the Mass is said in.
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marcus29
Guest
Billy so by your logic if the previous mentioned canon really is not specific to the TLM but it rather applies to the NO as well. Then why not continue that logic and say canon IX applies to the NO as well.
Canon IX**: If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, …that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; …let him be anathema
**The same could be said about the silent Canon. Does that anathema apply to the NO as well?
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Podo2004
Guest
But many years ago most people spoke the latin language so it was the official language of the church, but today Latin is a dead language. I mean how many of you understand every single word that is being said at mass in Latin without a translation in the venacular ?Unless of course you are fluent in latin…
So it kind of makes sense for you to understand what is going on during mass and be able to participate.
BTW Pope Pius XII may have condemned it, but he was not the one who summoned the 2nd vatican council and changed it.
Podo
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Pandora
Guest
I had one year of high school Latin and have no problems understanding the TLM. I easily followed the Papal Instilation as well. Latin is the root for many languages. If you know Latin you can pick up Romance languages much easier. My brother is both fluent in Latin and Greek (as well as Italian, Spanish and German) he always says it was thay 6 years of Latin that helped get him 800 on the verbal portion on his SAT. (his freshamn year in high school he had to translate the Iliad and the Odyssey from Greek to Latin)
Enough with knocking Latin it still is the offical language of the Church and all documents are in Latin. I wish I had taken more of it. Yes most of us that attend the TLM do know what is being said even without the translation. I only read the Latin side. I had no problem watching the Passion either. Those few dead languages made alot of money.
Kathy
Enough with knocking Latin it still is the offical language of the Church and all documents are in Latin. I wish I had taken more of it. Yes most of us that attend the TLM do know what is being said even without the translation. I only read the Latin side. I had no problem watching the Passion either. Those few dead languages made alot of money.
Kathy
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usqueadmortem
Guest
I think Kathy responded well to this.
But I’d like to add a few things. Latin was considered a dead language during the reign of John XXIII who did convene the 2nd Vatican Council. And he wrote a whole encyclical insisting on its retention. Moreover, the Second Vatican Council itself insisted it should be retained! So the argument on how many people speak it fluently is not sufficient.
Usque
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