Deeply hurt by anti-Tridentine Mass homily

  • Thread starter Thread starter CatholicNerd
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

CatholicNerd

Guest
Hello, all. After much careful deliberation about where to go to Mass last night, I finally decided to go to the Cathedral in Spokane hoping that at least the music would be decent (which, thankfully, it was!). Anyway, the priest’s homily was deeply hurtful and I’m wondering how to react. It started out fine enough, with a bit of typology showing how the tower of Babel prefigured the happenings at Pentecost… but then it turned sour very quickly.

“Up until 1965, we had our own tower of babel in the Catholic Church. It was called the Latin Mass! Church leaders thought that it would be great for everyone to be unified by one language, one chant, and one design of church. But they were wrong! Nobody understood what was going on! The priest faced the wall and did his thing and every so often would turn around and ask ’ you guys awake?’ and we’d say ‘sure, Father!’” – At this point people around me started saying “I remember! Amen!” –

The priest continued: “But at the Second Vatican Council the Holy Spirit moved the church to believe that all other languages were equal, maybe even superior, to Latin! We have flowered because in many languages we can now offer the one Mass!” --that’s utterly ridiculous. It would be great if we offered the same Mass as, say, the French. But we can’t because the ICEL translations are so BAD–

Here’s the kicker: “Those of you who stubbornly and foolishly cling to the Latin Mass are making yourselves obstacles to the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church! The Spirit is in charge! Not me, not you, and not even the pope! We must not fight reform any longer!”

I felt so rotten after hearing that homily. As if I am somehow transgressing because I value the theologically rich prayers of the Tridentine Mass. I don’t deny the beauty of the Missal of Paul VI. I just have a personal preference for the Missal of Pope St. Pius V.

How would you all address the issue? Is it worth mentioning to someone?
 
The best thing to do is to call and talk to the priest if this really, really, bothers you in a day or two. Please understand that this priest is not being very open minded in the spirit of VII. If you talk to the priest ask him his opinions on why the Eastern Catholics don’t change their liturgy? Ask this priest if the VII still calls for the inclusion of Latin in the liturgy, it does.
Could you ask the priest if he believes that more Catholics go to Sunday mass more as a result of the change. Then be silent and don’t say a thing. Please remember that any priest has the right to say the TLM according to Pius V. Ask him if it is good enough for private masses why not public? Most importantly avoid this jerk and go to a TLM in your area. Also ask him, as a percentage, what percentage of his diocese has seminarians studying for the priesthood compared to the Fraternal Order of St. Peter ( which is 100 percent).
 
You know, it’s one man’s opinion. My priest occasionally gives a very opinionated homily, offending some. I wouldn’t take it personally. He obviously is irritated by the traditionalists. So what? If you enjoy the old Mass, then by all means keep going to it.
 
40.png
CatholicNerd:
Hello, all. After much careful deliberation about where to go to Mass last night, I finally decided to go to the Cathedral in Spokane hoping that at least the music would be decent (which, thankfully, it was!). Anyway, the priest’s homily was deeply hurtful and I’m wondering how to react. It started out fine enough, with a bit of typology showing how the tower of Babel prefigured the happenings at Pentecost… but then it turned sour very quickly.

“Up until 1965, we had our own tower of babel in the Catholic Church. It was called the Latin Mass! Church leaders thought that it would be great for everyone to be unified by one language, one chant, and one design of church. But they were wrong! Nobody understood what was going on! The priest faced the wall and did his thing and every so often would turn around and ask ’ you guys awake?’ and we’d say ‘sure, Father!’” – At this point people around me started saying “I remember! Amen!” –

The priest continued: “But at the Second Vatican Council the Holy Spirit moved the church to believe that all other languages were equal, maybe even superior, to Latin! We have flowered because in many languages we can now offer the one Mass!” --that’s utterly ridiculous. It would be great if we offered the same Mass as, say, the French. But we can’t because the ICEL translations are so BAD–

Here’s the kicker: “Those of you who stubbornly and foolishly cling to the Latin Mass are making yourselves obstacles to the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church! The Spirit is in charge! Not me, not you, and not even the pope! We must not fight reform any longer!”

I felt so rotten after hearing that homily. As if I am somehow transgressing because I value the theologically rich prayers of the Tridentine Mass. I don’t deny the beauty of the Missal of Paul VI. I just have a personal preference for the Missal of Pope St. Pius V.

How would you all address the issue? Is it worth mentioning to someone?
Click to expand...
How old is the priest? It has been 36 years since the latin rite mass was universally given. Unfortunately the majority of clergy have similar feelings athough maybe not expressed in such a radical way. In 20 years the greater number of catholics and priests will have never experienced the pre Vatican II church.
Is there a right and a wrong way to glorify god, that is a personal choice, follow your heart.

Fogny
 
Hmm, so he used the Tower of Babel story to make an analogy with a point that was exactly opposite to what the story would support! There was one language, and God confused their languages as a punishment. So there was one language for Mass, now there are many. Was he trying to show that this is a punishment from God?

Not a good homiletic technique, in any case.

Like White Dove said, it’s just one man’s opinion. I wouldn’t worry about it.
 
Some priests just have a very anti-anything old mentality and will spew it venemously from time to time. Say a prayer for them, offer it up, and move on.
 
Write him askign for a copy of his homily, hopefully he’s so pridefull he’ll give it to you. Then write him demanding a retraction, then write his bishop. We cannot let these dissenters attack Holy Mother Church!
 
www.stmichaels.org/

Hello,

I used to live in Spokane. What a wonderful place, I wish that I could go back. I looked up churches in the area and St. Michaels has a traditional mass. Perhaps you should go there? It sounds like a lovely church.
 
Well, he probably believes what he says and that’s why it came across so passionately negative.

In my church it was the kneelers. They didn’t put any in, and while the pews are lower to the ground, it is still very hard on the elderly who want to kneel. In my mind, it was uncharitable to not have kneelers.

I feel the same way about the Latin Mass. Just like any other culture, the culture of the Latin Mass should be preserved, at least in some corners of our church. I went to a Latin Mass yesterday and it was beautiful. The customs that everyone else was so accustomed to seemed foreign to me (born in 1962), yet “When in Rome, do as the Romans do” sufficed. So i just observed and followed. The text given to us, had English translations on the opposing page.

If a mystic can praise the Lord with an overwhelming moan, the Lord certainly is accepting of praise in Latin or any other language that moves the heart.
 
All,

Latin is the official language of the liturgy. The regular mass (so-called Novus Ordo) can also be said in Latin. So let’s not call the 1962 Missal Mass “the Latin Mass”, please.

I consider it a great gift of God that we were finally allowed to assist at mass each in our own languages, as was the case for Latin-speaking people when Latin was the language of the people.

There is a great deal of good things to be said about the so-called Novus Ordo mass (or 1969 missal mass). There is no need to tear down other interpretations.

Verbum
 
Catholic Nerd,
This is a sad reality my friend. People take shots at us left and right. But let me assure you that this priest has blatantly contradicted the most ingenious and revered liturgical experts of Holy Mother Church. Pope Saint Pius X, Dom Gueranger, Pope Pius XII. They flat out disagree with him. Let me assure you he doesn’t know what he is talking about, he just has an agenda. He is afraid the whole liberal establishment, (which judging from his words he is probably apart of), is going to come crashing down since Pope Benedict ascended the throne. It really comes down to fear.

I would suggest you offer your sufferings, in union with the Sacrifice of our Blessed Saviour on Calvary, to the Eternal Father for the welfare and prosperity of Mother Church. Remember that Our Lord was made to feel the lowest of the low. But His burning desire for God’s glory could never be quenched. Don’t get discouraged! God LOVES the Tridentine Mass!

Pax et bonum!
Usque.
 
Well I must say this priest has built himself his own Tower of Babel, I actually am in agreement with Traditionalists on this one. You should ask him why the Eastern Catholics (Byzantines, Ukrainians etc) haven’t been called by the “Spirit” to reform their liturgy as us Romans have.

And if the TLM is so wrong now, who does he think was right before the Second Vatican Council? Like if the Catholic Church is 2000 years old, someone else in the Church had to of been right in all of those 1969 years before the Mass was said in english and all other languages.

This priest may or may not take your questions with an open mind, but be respectful to him. Though he will probably tell you “You won’t catch me praying to a wall anytime soon”, or something down those lines.
 
40.png
CatholicNerd:
Hello, all. After much careful deliberation about where to go to Mass last night, I finally decided to go to the Cathedral in Spokane hoping that at least the music would be decent (which, thankfully, it was!). Anyway, the priest’s homily was deeply hurtful and I’m wondering how to react. It started out fine enough, with a bit of typology showing how the tower of Babel prefigured the happenings at Pentecost… but then it turned sour very quickly.
Click to expand...
This is very sad.
All I can say is…

In nomine Patris
et Filli
et Spiritus Sancti
Amen

God Bless you for being patient.
I’m not sure what I would have done.
 
He might have had a recent conversation with someone who is very much in favor of the TLM - perhaps the conversation went sour? I was trying to figure out what might have brought this on. One possibility would be that he was approach by someone who was passionate about the TLM. Perhaps too passionate? Maybe to the point of being obnoxiously insistant?

NOTE: I’m not saying that people who are in favor of TLM are all like this! I’m saying that it may be possible that a well-intentioned proponent of the TLM may have spoken with him, and in the course of the conversation caused offense.

As far as what you could do, I think you ought to say something about this, but be sure to make it extremely polite, or you may lose his attention on the first sentence.
 
I just want to chime in here.

Yes, we Byzantines have not been called to reform our Divine Liturgy, but know this. The Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church is doing so. It is not as drastic as what the Latin Church has done but it is being done.

I would also add that the Byzantine Divine Liturgy has always been done in the Vernacular. So pointing to us in some way to defend Latin only is not going to work.
 
Heck, not even the Roman rite was always in Latin. Until Vatican II, certain groups in the Balkans said the Roman mass in Old Church Slavonic, and had for centuries.
 
40.png
ybeayf:
Heck, not even the Roman rite was always in Latin. Until Vatican II, certain groups in the Balkans said the Roman mass in Old Church Slavonic, and had for centuries.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is a fact that many of the Latin only crowd do not know.

From the time of Trent, there have always been dispensations to celebrate the Mass in the Vernacular in certain places.

I just do not understand the argument for Latin only as when the Church changed the language of the Mass from Greek to Latin, Latin was the Vernacualr.
 
CCC Article 2 - # 1203

The liturgical traditions or rites presently in use in the Church are the Latin (principally the Roman Rite), but also the rites of certain local churches, such as the Ambrosian rite or those of certain religious orders, and the Byzantine, Alexandrian/Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite and Chaldean rites. In “faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that Holy Mother Church holds all lawfully recognized rites to be of equal right and dignity, and that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way”. Sacrosanctum concilium 4.

Please stop persecuting those who prefer the Latin Tradition.

james
 
40.png
AuntMartha:
He might have had a recent conversation with someone who is very much in favor of the TLM - perhaps the conversation went sour? I was trying to figure out what might have brought this on. One possibility would be that he was approach by someone who was passionate about the TLM. Perhaps too passionate? Maybe to the point of being obnoxiously insistant?

NOTE: I’m not saying that people who are in favor of TLM are all like this! I’m saying that it may be possible that a well-intentioned proponent of the TLM may have spoken with him, and in the course of the conversation caused offense.

As far as what you could do, I think you ought to say something about this, but be sure to make it extremely polite, or you may lose his attention on the first sentence.
Click to expand...
I think this is a very likely explanation, Aunt Martha. There are arrogent, argumentative people of every persuasion, and I’ll bet some angry confrontational type pushed that priest’s buttons, thus setting him off like this. After all, he’s human like the rest of us.
 
40.png
Jakub:
CCC Article 2 - # 1203

The liturgical traditions or rites presently in use in the Church are the Latin (principally the Roman Rite), but also the rites of certain local churches, such as the Ambrosian rite or those of certain religious orders, and the Byzantine, Alexandrian/Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite and Chaldean rites. In “faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that Holy Mother Church holds all lawfully recognized rites to be of equal right and dignity, and that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way”. Sacrosanctum concilium 4.

Please stop persecuting those who prefer the Latin Tradition.

james
Click to expand...
  1. who is persecuting anyone?
  2. what does your quote have to do with that?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top