Defending a Higher Law: Why We Must Resist Same-sex “Marriage”

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Grace & Peace!
In the first case, if a narcoleptic is unwilling to take medication he is not permitted by law to drive. In the second case, if the sex addict does not have a chaperon, avoid places where they know they will relieve their urges, or have a back up plan for themselves they will end up in bed whether they regret it or not. In the last case, if the person with violent tendencies do not practice strict anger management or leave the scene whenever they know they will get angry, they will go to jail.
You are confusing a disease or a pathology with a healthy sexuality (in this case, a healthy homosexuality). The comparison does not obtain.

You may believe that it is impossible for a homosexual orientation to be healthy–I would refer you to my previous post on the issue of objective/intrinsic disorder. In any case, such a belief confuses a desire with a disease. Homosexual desire, like heterosexual desire, is capable of producing good fruit (the fruit of the Spirit) by grace. Experience demonstrates this. It is also capable of misuse. Experience demonstrates this also.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
I would like to add that there is a huge difference between who you are and what you do.
A severe narcoleptic will fall asleep on the road periodically. He may not intend to get into the accident, but he did intend to drive knowing he may fall asleep. If you have severe narcolepsy, you are familiar with yourself falling asleep at one point. From a moral standpoint, my personal understanding of morality would say you are not fully culpable for the moment of falling asleep but you are culpable of getting behind the wheel knowing you may fall asleep. Luckily there are medications for this and change of lifestyle does help.
But all of the things you mentioned are disordered aspects of natural tendencies. We all must sleep, the sex drive is natural and God given, and anger can be righteous. Because we are fallen, even our natural tendencies can become disordered. By grace we can work to order them properly. In the case of homosexuality, it is my conviction that it is a perfectly natural part of creation that must be ordered to the highest law, that of loving God and neighbor. This would apply the same way to heterosexuality or any other tendency distorted by our fallen nature.

And to comment further about “forced vocations”, your examples aren’t the best. Someone with narcolepsy may still enjoy sleep. A sex addict, whose desires are ordered to the love and service of others, may enjoy sex. One who has violent tendencies need not feel quilty if he becomes angry for a just reason and expresses his anger in a healthy manner. What the Church tells homosexuals is that there is absolutely no way that they may express their sexuality or feelings, even if they are expressed in healthy, loving ways. It seems that the homosexual tendency is the only one that is beyond redemption.
 
Grace & Peace!

You are confusing a disease or a pathology with a healthy sexuality (in this case, a healthy homosexuality). The comparison does not obtain.

You may believe that it is impossible for a homosexual orientation to be healthy–I would refer you to my previous post on the issue of objective/intrinsic disorder. In any case, such a belief confuses a desire with a disease. Homosexual desire, like heterosexual desire, is capable of producing good fruit (the fruit of the Spirit) by grace. Experience demonstrates this. It is also capable of misuse. Experience demonstrates this also.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo Gratias!
Whether there is a disease or disorder or neither but something healthy, does not the bible explicitly refer to homosexuality:

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God…Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 18-20).

Taken this and the scene where Jesus forgives the girl who was about to be stoned, does it not imply homosexual activity is a problem and that we should not be deceived?
 
Grace & Peace!

Buffalo, you are quite wrong in this regard. Here is Ezekiel 16:49: “Behold this was the iniquity of Sodom thy sister, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance, and the idleness of her, and of her daughters: and they did not put forth their hand to the needy, and to the poor.”

Note also (contrary to your source) that iniquity is singular, but a multitude of sins are understood by it. It is convenient to say that the “sin of Sodom” must be homosexuality because sin is singular, but convenience, as I’m sure you’re aware, does not make something true.

Furthermore, let’s look at Isaiah 3:8-9: “For Jerusalem is ruined, and Juda is fallen: because their tongue, and their devices are against the Lord, to provoke the eyes of his majesty. The shew of their countenance hath answered them: and they have proclaimed abroad their sin as Sodom, and they have not hid it: woe to their souls, for evils are rendered to them…” These verses indicate that Sodom’s great sin is the pride they took in their own wickedness. No mention of homosexuality.

If you insist on seeing homosexuality as the sin of Sodom, you must see it within the context of the Levitical sexual prohbitions. It is clear (I would refer you to Gaca’s “The Making of Fornication”) that what the ancient Hebrews understood as fornication was any sexual activity which compromised the religious integrity of the people of Israel (which is different, I may add, from what we generally call fornication). That is–fornication occurs when one has sex with an idolator. Paul understood it similarly, which is why he had such a problem with the Ephesians–Christian men were marrying pagan women, joining the true temple to a false temple, implicating the Christian in his very marriage and through thesexual act in an act of idolatry. Such an act was understood to be an act of fornication. The prohibition against “lying the lyings of a woman” in Leviticus must be understood within this context as well–and the context of Leviticus bears this out: homosexual activity was activity other cultures did, and, moreover was associated with idolatry. Anything bearing the taint of idolatry was forbidden, and homosexual acts were forbidden not because they were “un-natural” but because they were seen by the ancient Israelites as idolatrous. Even so, many scholars have indicated that the acts prohibited by Leviticus were penetrative acts which resembled heterosexual intercourse–that is, intercrural sex, anal sex. Other forms of sexual expression between men were evidently not proscribed.

Which is all to say that even if you (wrongly) understand the principle “sin” of Sodom to be homosexuality and NOT (based on the evidence of scripture) pride in wickedness or pompous cruelty which comes from a lack of charity (otherwise known as inhospitality), then all evidence must lead you to see homosexual activity in the story as shorthand for blatant idolatry. As RyanML has repeatedly mentioned, the story of Sodom is not a story illustrating that homosexual activity is bad.

By the way, the idea that sex is primarily for procreation (and should only be practiced with as little frequency as possible by husband and wife) is apparently a Pythagorean invention (again, I would refer you to Gaca), not an idea which finds its origin in Judaism per se. The Stoic position was that the genitals are naturally ordered toward reproduction, but that the sex act is prinicipally ordered toward relationship or friendship. This seems to point in the right direction, to me, and seems quite reasonable. How the Pythagorean notion of sex (which was incredibly puritanical and somewhat arcane–as witnessed by the calculation of the nuptial number which would determine the appropriate time to procreate in order to beget moral children) came to be regarded as the norm is beyond me, unless there is some veracity to the rumors of Christianity being, in part, the development of Essene-type spirituality through contact with Pythagorean/Therapeutae influences via Hellenized Judaism.

Ryan, thanks for your support. I’d be interested in some discussion on those points, but I don’t think it’s likely to happen! Ultimately, it is much more culturally advantageous to continue to believe in the homosexual-as-scapegoat paradigm as witnessed by the insistance on the sin of Sodom being homosexuality, than it is to believe that we, as a culture, have a responsibility to hospitality which we obstinately refuse to take seriously. If we focus on homosexuality and ignore the imperative to hospitality (which, by the way, speaks directly to our understanding of the Eucharist), then we can continue on with business as usual. Again: it’s all about power.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo Gratias!
Then I refer you to
Early Teachings on Homosexuality
 
Whether there is a disease or disorder or neither but something healthy, does not the bible explicitly refer to homosexuality:

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God…Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, 18-20).
Why did you stop there? Don’t you like the implication of the next verse?
“Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is eneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything.
Or Colossians 2?
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Or my favourite when it comes to same-sex marriage, 1 Timothy 4:1-5. Note the bit in bold:
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
Ah, the Bible: the Big Book of Multiple Choice.
Taken this and the scene where Jesus forgives the girl who was about to be stoned, does it not imply homosexual activity is a problem and that we should not be deceived?
OTOH, what about the scene where Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for healing on the Sabbath and He makes it clear that if the Law stands in the way of an act of love, love should prevail, not the Law?
 
Just so I understand. Thanks.

How did you know they were homosexuals when you hired them? Did you break the law and ask them?
Some I knew, and some I didn’t,

They told me. When people ask about same sex partner benefits it’s a good clue. One woman simply said she was a lesbian and didn’t want to bother with any problems. Highly qualified people really don’t care what you know because they can go down the street to the competition and get hired. My competition isn’t stupid.
 
The Early Church Fathers talk about pagan ritual sex acts, incest, and pederasty (man-boy sex or male prostitution). I’m not sure where same-sex couples who love each other falls into any one of those categories.
So your claim is that this has not been constant church teaching and understanding?
 
So your claim is that this has not been constant church teaching and understanding?
No. I’m saying that the Early Church had no concept of sexual orientation or the natural and environmental influences that can shape a persons sexuality. They condemned what they saw and what they saw was homosexual activity used in idolatrous worship and the extortion of young boys and slaves.

I would be very curious to know what they would have thought about two Christian men who were in a loving, life long, and monogamous relationship and who lived grace filled lives at the service of God and neighbor.
 
No. I’m saying that the Early Church had no concept of sexual orientation or the natural and environmental influences that can shape a persons sexuality. They condemned what they saw and what they saw was homosexual activity used in idolatrous worship and the extortion of young boys and slaves.

I would be very curious to know what they would have thought about two Christian men who were in a loving, life long, and monogamous relationship and who lived grace filled lives at the service of God and neighbor.
Men can live in friendship as brothers. The Church has no problem with that, neither do I.

The Four Loves
 
No. I’m saying that the Early Church had no concept of sexual orientation or the natural and environmental influences that can shape a persons sexuality. They condemned what they saw and what they saw was homosexual activity used in idolatrous worship and the extortion of young boys and slaves.

I would be very curious to know what they would have thought about two Christian men who were in a loving, life long, and monogamous relationship and who lived grace filled lives at the service of God and neighbor.
So your claim is the Church got it wrong and will overturn its teaching the act is “intrinsically evil”?
 
So your claim is the Church got it wrong and will overturn its teaching the act is “intrinsically evil”?
No, I will not claim that. The best answer I can give you is from my post #710:
I might clarify that I realize I have no authority to speak definitively on these matters and what I present here is only my opinion. I don’t mean to say that Holy Mother Church is wrong. In fact it’s much more possible that I am wrong and if I am I pray that God will be merciful to me. But I can not intellectually assent to something if I find it impossible to believe.
 
No, I will not claim that. The best answer I can give you is from my post #710:
I believe that the Church has a pretty good understanding of the human condition. She has the guidance of Revelation. So no she will not change it.

At some point we all have to be humble and assent to the Church’s teachings whether we like some of them or not. I have been there too.

The Catholic Church possesses the “fullness of truth”. If you are journeying toward the cross you will be freed of any doubt.
 
The Catholic Church possesses the “fullness of truth”. If you are journeying toward the cross you will be freed of any doubt.
I was under the impression that according to the Bible, no mortal human posesses the “fullness of truth”. “For now, we see through a glass darkly” and all that.
 
I was under the impression that according to the Bible, no mortal human posesses the “fullness of truth”. “For now, we see through a glass darkly” and all that.
Christ gave His Church the gift of the Spirit that she would be guided in all truth. That does not mean that her understanding of the truth doesn’t grow and that she doesn’t find better, clearer ways of expressing that truth. But even the truth that God has willed to revealed to us is but a shadow of its total beauty and glory. That we will only experience in eternity, in the Beatific Vision.
 
So your claim is the Church got it wrong and will overturn its teaching the act is “intrinsically evil”?
I predict it will. The people of God will lead the Vatican. Just like we discussed earlier regarding interest. Some will never admit it makes a change, but the practical effects will be the same. However, we have to wait a bit to see how it plays out. Probably quite a long bit.

We see the creeping change in divorce as annulments proliferate. The people demanded it, and the Church delivered. Some say it really isn’t divorce because those folks really weren’t married. OK. That’s fine. Call it what you want. Bottom line is spouses split up and are free to marry again.
 
Grace & Peace!
So your claim is the Church got it wrong and will overturn its teaching the act is “intrinsically evil”?
My response to this, similar to Ryan’s, is not that the Church got it wrong, but that the Fathers were not talking about the same things we are talking about. Our understanding of sexuality is not theirs. It would be unfair and disingenuous of us to impute to the Fathers our own biases and prejudices regarding sexuality, unfair, as well, to expect them to have any consciousness of the various psychological, biological, socio-cultural and generally scientific researches into human sexuality that have characterized our understanding of it today. Ryan’s statement was very clear and concise: “The Early Church Fathers talk about pagan ritual sex acts, incest, and pederasty (man-boy sex or male prostitution). I’m not sure where same-sex couples who love each other falls into any one of those categories.”

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
I predict it will. The people of God will lead the Vatican. Just like we discussed earlier regarding interest. Some will never admit it makes a change, but the practical effects will be the same. However, we have to wait a bit to see how it plays out. Probably quite a long bit.

We see the creeping change in divorce as annulments proliferate. The people demanded it, and the Church delivered. Some say it really isn’t divorce because those folks really weren’t married. OK. That’s fine. Call it what you want. Bottom line is spouses split up and are free to marry again.
The Church is definitely concerned about the rise of annullments. This is testament to the affects of secularism, no fault divorce, contraception, and sexual immorality.
 
Grace & Peace!

My response to this, similar to Ryan’s, is not that the Church got it wrong, but that the Fathers were not talking about the same things we are talking about. Our understanding of sexuality is not theirs. It would be unfair and disingenuous of us to impute to the Fathers our own biases and prejudices regarding sexuality, unfair, as well, to expect them to have any consciousness of the various psychological, biological, socio-cultural and generally scientific researches into human sexuality that have characterized our understanding of it today. Ryan’s statement was very clear and concise: “The Early Church Fathers talk about pagan ritual sex acts, incest, and pederasty (man-boy sex or male prostitution). I’m not sure where same-sex couples who love each other falls into any one of those categories.”

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is grace and mercy! Deo Gratias!
Here we go again, the ancients did not know what we know today. Did you even read the ECF’s? Did you even read the links I posted? The clear understanding is that the act is a mortal sin.
 
The Church is definitely concerned about the rise of annullments. This is testament to the affects of secularism, no fault divorce, contraception, and sexual immorality.
OK. So, secularism, no fault divorce, contraception, and sexual immorality are driving the Church to grant annulments. That’s how it works in lots of areas. The people move in a new direction and the leaders rush to get back out in front.
 
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