Defending Life

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I am discussing the issue of pregnancy by rape in another forum.What Am I supposed to say to these people, who would kill a baby so that their 11 old girl can live happily? Is abortion justified in a situation like this? What about Incest rape (if that’s even a proper term)?
 
I would suggest the following:

Anyone who is raped is a victim. To kill the baby that is a result of the rape is to victimize the woman a second time and is a crime against the innocent baby in her womb. Although I cannot give you the statistical source, it is my understanding that women that carry a baby to term that is a result of rape or incest usually fare better than those that abort. This may be worth some research to provide some empirical evidence that abortion in these cases is really counter productive as well as a crime against the life of the unborn.

I would also suggest that you tell them that there is never a justification for simply killing another innocent human being. Another way to illustrate the illogical approach people take to abortion in the case of rape or incest is to draw a parallel such as this one:

Suppose your father committed a robbery and murdered the security guard in cold blood. Would it be right or just to put you to death for your father’s crime? The same logic applies to the case of aborting an unborn baby for the father’s crime of rape. There simply is no justification for the abortion. Abortions almost always have a selfish motive. The baby is looked upon as a problem and an incovenience that needs to be disposed of rather than as a human being with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

P.S. If you would like a non-religious argument that shows the fallacies associated with the typical reasons/arguments used to justify abortions I can provide that to you.
 
Abortion, that is, the intentional direct killing of the fetus is never morally permissible.

The Church has many beautiful documents on the dignity of the human person, with explanations of the Church’s teaching on life.

From Evangelium Vitae, number 58:
It is true that the decision to have an abortion is often tragic and painful for the mother, insofar as the decision to rid herself of the fruit of conception is not made for purely selfish reasons or out of convenience, but out of a desire to protect certain important values such as her own health or a decent standard of living for the other members of the family. Sometimes it is feared that the child to be born would live in such conditions that it would be better if the birth did not take place. Nevertheless, these reasons and others like them, however serious and tragic, can never justify the deliberate killing of an innocent human being.
From Declaration on Procured Abortion, number 14:
It may be a serious question of health, sometimes of life or death, for the mother; it may be the burden represented by an additional child, especially if there are good reasons to fear that the child will be abnormal or retarded; it may be the importance attributed in different classes of society to considerations of honor or dishonor, of loss of social standing, and so forth. We proclaim only that none of these reasons can ever objectively confer the right to dispose of another’s life, even when that life is only beginning.
Read also Donum Vitae and Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services, section four.
 
I would suggest the following:

Anyone who is raped is a victim. To kill the baby that is a result of the rape is to victimize the woman a second time and is a crime against the innocent baby in her womb. Although I cannot give you the statistical source, it is my understanding that women that carry a baby to term that is a result of rape or incest usually fare better than those that abort. This may be worth some research to provide some empirical evidence that abortion in these cases is really counter productive as well as a crime against the life of the unborn.

I would also suggest that you tell them that there is never a justification for simply killing another innocent human being. Another way to illustrate the illogical approach people take to abortion in the case of rape or incest is to draw a parallel such as this one:

Suppose your father committed a robbery and murdered the security guard in cold blood. Would it be right or just to put you to death for your father’s crime? The same logic applies to the case of aborting an unborn baby for the father’s crime of rape. There simply is no justification for the abortion. Abortions almost always have a selfish motive. The baby is looked upon as a problem and an incovenience that needs to be disposed of rather than as a human being with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

P.S. If you would like a non-religious argument that shows the fallacies associated with the typical reasons/arguments used to justify abortions I can provide that to you.
thaks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I would also like non-religious arguments as well if its not too much trouble.
 
When a man comes and beats a young girl and leaves a young child with her, is she then allowed to kill the small child because she doesn’t want it? No!
Emphasize that it’s always murder, no matter if someone wants the murder or not.

Ask them if they would kill a rape-newborn. If they wouldn’t, ask why. Most likely they will say it’s out of the womb or it’s umbilical cord is cut. Ask what the difference between one second before it’s out of the womb and one second after…or one second before the cord is cut and one second after. Then ask if they would still kill the child one second before exiting the womb or cutting the cord. If they say no, then ask if they would kill the baby five minutes before that(or some other small time period)…just keep going until they say they would kill the child.

Then say “but you wouldn’t one second after that? What’s the difference between those two seconds?”

What I do is just emphasize that it’s still murder no matter if it’s a wanted life or not.

They might bring it up that the baby will have a bad life if it’s put up for adoption. You should then point out there are families that only adopt lonely or defected children because they want to help them more. These couples are abundant.

If they are Catholic, urge that you aren’t Catholic if you are prochoice. Urge that the Church teaches abortion is always wrong when it is intended(no double effect in place). If they say you don’t have to follow all Church teachings, tell them they aren’t Catholic. Or tell them that one must follow all faith and moral teachings.

Good luck! And Happy Easter!
:bowdown: to Jesus
 
thaks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I would also like non-religious arguments as well if its not too much trouble.
The non-religious argument is basically a matter of getting people to recognize that a human being’s dignity is an objective quality and not one that is dependent on other human beings or even on the person himself.

The dignity of a person is not based on degree of development, recognition by others, social class, etc.

A fetus is unmistakably a human being: this is a biological fact that cannot be disputed.

Should some human beings be allowed to live and others not allowed to live? Under what circumstances?

Saying that abortion should be allowed in cases of rape is saying that the determination about whether a human being should live depends on the circumstances of his conception, that is, an external quality.

There’s no religious argument necessary. All human beings have to recognize that they may not kill other human beings. This cannot be made contingent upon external factors like race, location, social status, circumstances surrounding conception, etc.

If a woman is raped and bears the child to term and then when the child is three years old or so decides that she doesn’t want the child to live, should she be allowed to kill the child because the child was conceived due to rape? The fact that the child was conceived due to rape has not changed in three years, so if that’s the determining factor, why not kill him then?
 
When a man comes and beats a young girl and leaves a young child with her, is she then allowed to kill the small child because she doesn’t want it? No!
Emphasize that it’s always murder, no matter if someone wants the murder or not.

Ask them if they would kill a rape-newborn. If they wouldn’t, ask why. Most likely they will say it’s out of the womb or it’s umbilical cord is cut. Ask what the difference between one second before it’s out of the womb and one second after…or one second before the cord is cut and one second after. Then ask if they would still kill the child one second before exiting the womb or cutting the cord. If they say no, then ask if they would kill the baby five minutes before that(or some other small time period)…just keep going until they say they would kill the child.

Then say “but you wouldn’t one second after that? What’s the difference between those two seconds?”

What I do is just emphasize that it’s still murder no matter if it’s a wanted life or not.

They might bring it up that the baby will have a bad life if it’s put up for adoption. You should then point out there are families that only adopt lonely or defected children because they want to help them more. These couples are abundant.

If they are Catholic, urge that you aren’t Catholic if you are prochoice. Urge that the Church teaches abortion is always wrong when it is intended(no double effect in place). If they say you don’t have to follow all Church teachings, tell them they aren’t Catholic. Or tell them that one must follow all faith and moral teachings.

Good luck! And Happy Easter!
:bowdown: to Jesus
Thanks, I’ll need all the help I can get. 🙂
 
thaks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I would also like non-religious arguments as well if its not too much trouble.
How about “two wrongs don’t make a right”? Or “the ends don’t justify the means”?

Victimizing an unborn child is no better than the victimization of its mother. To say one evil will right the wrong caused by the other evil is fallacious.

That poor girl’s innocence may have been stolen from her, but that doesn’t necessitate nor justify stealing away another’s entire existence.
 
Why not say anything? It seems to me that it is our job as Catholics to defend life. That is what I am trying to do.
It is not your job to tell the parents of an 11 year old girl who was raped what to do. If your 11 year old girl was raped I don’t think you would appreciate me telling you that you should abort. Or telling you anything. Unless your goal is to cause further pain to the family, you should stick to debating with others and keep your opinions on what they should do with their child to yourself.
 
It is not your job to tell the parents of an 11 year old girl who was raped what to do. If your 11 year old girl was raped I don’t think you would appreciate me telling you that you should abort. Or telling you anything. Unless your goal is to cause further pain to the family, you should stick to debating with others and keep your opinions on what they should do with their child to yourself.
Relativism endangers your soul.

Nine ways of being accessory to another’s sin:
  1. By silence
The chief spiritual works of mercy:
  1. To admonish the sinner
  2. To instruct the ignorant
  3. To council the doubtful
  4. To comfort the sorrowful…
To sit idly by and do nothing is not loving your neighbor.
 
I am discussing the issue of pregnancy by rape in another forum.What Am I supposed to say to these people, who would kill a baby so that their 11 old girl can live happily? Is abortion justified in a situation like this? What about Incest rape (if that’s even a proper term)?
It is their opinion that killing the baby will produce a “happy” situation for the 11 yo.

Killing babies is murder. No, abortion is not justified in any situation. Killing babies is never justified.

Further traumatizing an 11 year old with the life-long knowledge that her parents forced her to kill her baby is not the answer.

Research shows that woman who go through an abortion after a rape are more traumatized by the procedure than the rape.

Adoption is always an option for the baby.

You likely will not be able to argue rationally with these types of people. I suggest you get the book Pro-Life Answers for Pro-Choice Arguments by Randy Alcorn.

I also suggest literature from www.all.org or www.hh76.com on pregnancies due to rape.

You can also look up Dr. David Reardon’s research and informaito nat www.afterabortion.org.

Here are some other sites:
abortionfacts.com/reardon/rape_incest_and_abortion.asp
pregnantpause.org/aborted/curerape.htm
biblia.com/abortion/rape.htm
lifesite.net/ldn/2006/aug/06080308.html
 
It is not your job to tell the parents of an 11 year old girl who was raped what to do. If your 11 year old girl was raped I don’t think you would appreciate me telling you that you should abort. Or telling you anything. Unless your goal is to cause further pain to the family, you should stick to debating with others and keep your opinions on what they should do with their child to yourself.
Then why are they posting it in a forum looking for advice?

I would remind these parents that this is their grandchild they are talking about killing.

That said, the risks to the mom-to-be physically are daunting, along with the added psychological trauma. But even at that age, I remember understanding abortion as something terribly wrong. The little girl should be taken to a therapist who specializes in child abuse cases, and she should also see an OB/GYN who can help her assess her physical risks. Honestly, the decision should be made by the child.

The girl’s parents should support whatever she decides because rape victims feel very powerless afterwards, and forced pregnancy or abortion could compound that. She could possibly be at risk for depression or harming herself or her unborn child right now. I would definitely encourage her to become empowered and to face the risks with dignity and grace and to bring in a new life with love in defiance of the pain and violation against her.

These parents are also likely traumatized, and spouting off, “You should not do that!” is not going to help them. You should acknowledge their pain and charitably offer comfort. They are going through a difficult time, too. Of course killing the grandchild is not the answer, but they need to arrive at that themselves. Talking them through it with love and listening will help quite a bit.
 
It is not your job to tell the parents of an 11 year old girl who was raped what to do. If your 11 year old girl was raped I don’t think you would appreciate me telling you that you should abort. Or telling you anything. Unless your goal is to cause further pain to the family, you should stick to debating with others and keep your opinions on what they should do with their child to yourself.
I see your stand point now, But I should have mentioned that this is a hypothetical situation. Still, I suppose you do make a point…
 
The fetus is a life - and should not be killed because of the sins of his father (Ezechiel 18:20).

Catholig
 
In making non-religious argumentation against abortion I would submit the following points as presented by bio-ethicists to dispel any logical misgivings that people might have with the pro-life position.

The legitimacy of killing the unborn depends solely upon whether or not the unborn are human beings. If the unborn are human beings, than no argument can justify abortion. Based on this obvious point, it is necessary to explore the common characteristics and the apparent differences between the born and the unborn. In doing so we will hit on the primary reasons why people will dehumanize the unborn.

First of all we know that a person’s genetic material is identical from conception through adulthood. Therefore, we know that the unborn at any stage of development will never be anything other than a human being. It also follows that any person alive today is the same person they were when they lived inside their mother’s womb.

Most people that argue in favor of abortion believe that it is the differences between the born and the unborn that justify abortion. They even go so far as to say that the unborn is not a human being. The only differences between the born and the unborn are size, level of development, environment, and dependency. Obviously, an adult is larger than a child, but the adult’s size does not make him more human than the child. Likewise the tiny unborn human in the womb is no less human because she is smaller than the rest of us. We also know that a small child has not reached sexual maturity and is, therefore, less developed than an adult. The ability to reproduce does not make the adult more human than the child. Therefore, the level of development is not a factor in determining whether we are human beings. If the level of development were the determining factor we could easily decide to kill anyone prior to reaching puberty. The environment or location of an adult does not determine his or her humanity. We are no less human while flying at 30,000 ft. in an airplane, than when we are sitting in the airport. Likewise, the environment or location of the unborn (i.e. the womb) does not make the unborn less human than when it takes its first breath in the delivery room. We must also apply the same kind of logic to the last difference between the born and the unborn. Obviously, if someone is in Intensive Care at a hospital while recovering from an accident, their level of dependency would be significant. No one would argue, however, that the individual was less human during their recovery than before the accident or after the recovery. Likewise, an infant or even a small child is totally dependent on the parents, but the infant and child are considered human beings. The same holds true for the unborn. While she may be in her mother’s womb and may be completely dependent on her mother, she is still a human being. The level of dependency does not determine whether or not she is a human being.

Life begins at conception and abortion kills a human being. Supreme Court rulings do not change the truth. In the Dred Scott decision, the Court declared that slaves were property and not human beings. The Nazis declared Jews and others to be subhuman and non-persons as well. Judicial and political decisions are not always based on facts, truth, or correct moral principles.

I hope this helps.
 
I am discussing the issue of pregnancy by rape in another forum.What Am I supposed to say to these people, who would kill a baby so that their 11 old girl can live happily?
When the 11-year-old is older, she may wonder what the child might have been like, what they would have accomplished, whose lives they would have touched. She will never know. God creates each person- as an artist (an artist for talent- not one who just wants to make money) makes a work of art. Each one is unique, and God creates nothing that isn’t inherently good- far better than anything man can create. God brings good out of bad situations.
Is abortion justified in a situation like this?
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING justifies abortion- NOTHING.
What about Incest rape (if that’s even a proper term)?
See above. Rape, Incest, treat to the mother’s health (even her life), convenience, money, shame, fear, selfishness…no reason is good enough to justify destroying an innocent human life.
 
It is not your job to tell the parents of an 11 year old girl who was raped what to do. If your 11 year old girl was raped I don’t think you would appreciate me telling you that you should abort. Or telling you anything. Unless your goal is to cause further pain to the family, you should stick to debating with others and keep your opinions on what they should do with their child to yourself.
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
 
It is not your job to tell the parents of an 11 year old girl who was raped what to do. If your 11 year old girl was raped I don’t think you would appreciate me telling you that you should abort. Or telling you anything. Unless your goal is to cause further pain to the family, you should stick to debating with others and keep your opinions on what they should do with their child to yourself.
Valke2, as at least one other person has said Confused does have the right to stand up for truth, because to remain silent would be to sin by omission. Judaism might no longer believe that abortion is an absolute evil, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is bringing about the death of an innocent. Ez 18:20

Catholig
 
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