Defending Life

[TheApologist]

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING justifies abortion- NOTHING.

Abortion is acceptable when the Double Effect is in order. When the fetus is stuck in the tubal region or when the mother has advanced uteran cancer, abortion is permitted because it is an unintended effect to reach the intended effect of survival of the mother. Also in these two situations both the mother and child will die if an abortion is not followed through with.

Abortion is never acceptable as an intended effect.

 

[dylanschrader]

Abortion is acceptable when the Double Effect is in order. When the fetus is stuck in the tubal region or when the mother has advanced uteran cancer, abortion is permitted because it is an unintended effect to reach the intended effect of survival of the mother. Also in these two situations both the mother and child will die if an abortion is not followed through with.

Abortion is never acceptable as an intended effect.

I’d be careful with phrasing the explanation of Double Effect, especially in this case. Abortion–the intended killing of the fetus–is never permitted either as a means or as an ends. An action may be taken which will result in the foreseen but unintended death of the fetus, however, if the intended effect is proportionately good.

For example, from the Ethical and Religious Directives for Catholic Health Care Services, Fourth Edition:

1. Operations, treatments, and medications that have as their direct purpose the cure of a proportionately serious pathological condition of a pregnant woman are permitted when they cannot be safely postponed until the unborn child is viable, even if they will result in the death of the unborn child.

1. In case of extrauterine pregnancy, no intervention is morally licit which constitutes a direct abortion.

Even in the case of a tubal pregnancy, an abortion is not permitted. What is permitted is the removal of the fallopian tubes, but a direct abortion is still illicit.

 

[Grace_Angel]

I am discussing the issue of pregnancy by rape in another forum.What Am I supposed to say to these people, who would kill a baby so that their 11 old girl can live happily? Is abortion justified in a situation like this? What about Incest rape (if that’s even a proper term)?

Hello Confused
You need to ask what exactly has the conceived baby done to warrant being murdered? Exactly. Is it being punished for the sins of the father?
Also it simportant to understnad that an abortion will not let the 11 year old “live happily ever after” in fact an abortion will created a new and lifelong problem for this girl.
In both instances of rape and abortion their is the death of innocence. She was violated and psychologically and spiritually wounded and this will require much healing, and if she or her parents abort the life of the conceived child, they will be doing the same.
They may not want to keep the child, so be it. But with grace allow the child to be born and given to a family who can love it immensely. Who knows this baby may be the very instrument of saving for this young girl and her family.
God has decalred a loud AMEN to this life. destroying it is saying NO to God’s Yes,.
I hope this helps you a little.
Just utter some heartfelt prayer for the young mother, the baby and her family. Also a dee prayer for the violator. His soul is in grave danger.
Grace Angel.

 

[mapleoak]

Honestly, the decision should be made by the child.
The girl’s parents should support whatever she decides because rape victims feel very powerless afterwards, and forced pregnancy or abortion could compound that. She could possibly be at risk for depression or harming herself or her unborn child right now.

Their does not exist the need of the girl’s parents to support a decision to abort. Regardless of the risk of developing depression, there is not justification for murder. In fact, it is the parents obligation to do all in their power to prevent their eleven year old daughter from doing such as well as instructing and guiding her morally.

In Christ - J.M.J.
Mapleoak

 

[dianeeh]

Their does not exist the need of the girl’s parents to support a decision to abort. Regardless of the risk of developing depression, there is not justification for murder. In fact, it is the parents obligation to do all in their power to prevent their eleven year old daughter from doing such as well as instructing and guiding her morally.

In Christ - J.M.J.
Mapleoak

Did you even read the rest of my post?

 

[mapleoak]

Did you even read the rest of my post?

I do understand the rest message you were conveying. I only disagree with the “support whatever she decides because rape victims feel very powerless, and forced pregnancy or abortion could compound that” portion. It is for that specific reason of feeling very powerless that this is a decision (choice) that should not be made by the eleven year old girl. True, the parents should support a ‘decision’ not to abort. In no event should they support a decision to abort. In fact, it would be their obligation to use their parental authority to subjugate such decision.

In Christ - J.M.J.
Mapleoak

 

[dianeeh]

I do understand the rest message you were conveying. I only disagree with the “support whatever she decides because rape victims feel very powerless, and forced pregnancy or abortion could compound that” portion. It is for that specific reason of feeling very powerless that this is a decision (choice) that should not be made by the eleven year old girl. True, the parents should support a ‘decision’ not to abort. In no event should they support a decision to abort. In fact, it would be their obligation to use their parental authority to subjugate such decision.

In Christ - J.M.J.
Mapleoak

Have you ever been raped and are you a female who knows what 11 was like?

I do not disagree that she should be encouraged and told every truth about her decision, in all aspects. But at 11, her body could be very small and she could have a lot of health risks. Not everyone is cut out to be St. Gianna, and St. Gianna was 39 when she had to make her tough choice. This could kill an 11 year old or badly injure her. The discomforts of pregnancy would be multiplied because she is smaller. Her diet could be the typical McNugget diet of that age and harm both the baby and herself because babies suck all the vitamins right out of ya.

It would be incredible if she would choose life and get a really good obstetrician and follow all of the medical advice given and she could find a great therapist who helps her heal emotionally and give her the courage to give up her baby for adoption or let the parents raise the baby as a “sibling.” I don’t deny that.

But parents forcing her to stay pregnant when she’s depressed or suffering possibly from PTSD-- They could lose both children if the little girl is at risk of harming herself. This is why she needs to be evaluated and why she ultimately needs to make the decision.

 

[mapleoak]

Have you ever been raped and are you a female who knows what 11 was like?

I do not disagree that she should be encouraged and told every truth about her decision, in all aspects. But at 11, her body could be very small and she could have a lot of health risks. Not everyone is cut out to be St. Gianna, and St. Gianna was 39 when she had to make her tough choice. This could kill an 11 year old or badly injure her. The discomforts of pregnancy would be multiplied because she is smaller. Her diet could be the typical McNugget diet of that age and harm both the baby and herself because babies suck all the vitamins right out of ya.

It would be incredible if she would choose life and get a really good obstetrician and follow all of the medical advice given and she could find a great therapist who helps her heal emotionally and give her the courage to give up her baby for adoption or let the parents raise the baby as a “sibling.” I don’t deny that.

But parents forcing her to stay pregnant when she’s depressed or suffering possibly from PTSD-- They could lose both children if the little girl is at risk of harming herself. This is why she needs to be evaluated and why she ultimately needs to make the decision.

Dianeeh, thanks for the detail. It it did not come across that way the way it was originally written. Apologies.

In Christ - J.M.J.
Mapleoak

 

[Catholig]

Have you ever been raped and are you a female who knows what 11 was like?

I do not disagree that she should be encouraged and told every truth about her decision, in all aspects. But at 11, her body could be very small and she could have a lot of health risks. Not everyone is cut out to be St. Gianna, and St. Gianna was 39 when she had to make her tough choice. This could kill an 11 year old or badly injure her. The discomforts of pregnancy would be multiplied because she is smaller. Her diet could be the typical McNugget diet of that age and harm both the baby and herself because babies suck all the vitamins right out of ya.

It would be incredible if she would choose life and get a really good obstetrician and follow all of the medical advice given and she could find a great therapist who helps her heal emotionally and give her the courage to give up her baby for adoption or let the parents raise the baby as a “sibling.” I don’t deny that.

But parents forcing her to stay pregnant when she’s depressed or suffering possibly from PTSD-- They could lose both children if the little girl is at risk of harming herself. This is why she needs to be evaluated and why she ultimately needs to make the decision.

Abortion is an absolute evil, because it is the intentional murder of another human being. Yes, she is 11. And yes it is wrong that she was raped. But to have an abortion to feel more empowered isn’t the right answer.

Catholig

 

[dylanschrader]

Have you ever been raped and are you a female who knows what 11 was like?

I do not disagree that she should be encouraged and told every truth about her decision, in all aspects. But at 11, her body could be very small and she could have a lot of health risks. Not everyone is cut out to be St. Gianna, and St. Gianna was 39 when she had to make her tough choice. This could kill an 11 year old or badly injure her. The discomforts of pregnancy would be multiplied because she is smaller. Her diet could be the typical McNugget diet of that age and harm both the baby and herself because babies suck all the vitamins right out of ya.

It would be incredible if she would choose life and get a really good obstetrician and follow all of the medical advice given and she could find a great therapist who helps her heal emotionally and give her the courage to give up her baby for adoption or let the parents raise the baby as a “sibling.” I don’t deny that.

But parents forcing her to stay pregnant when she’s depressed or suffering possibly from PTSD-- They could lose both children if the little girl is at risk of harming herself. This is why she needs to be evaluated and why she ultimately needs to make the decision.

No matter how hard it is, poor health, physical suffering, and death are better than committing a moral evil. We simply may not do evil even in order to achieve some good result.

I guarantee that it is better to die than to have an abortion.

Of course, we have to keep in mind that no matter what evil things we do, God brings about good things as a result. So, even if the girl had an abortion (which is evil and therefore not an option), God could bring about good things in her life, but they would not be the good things that would have come if she had not had an abortion.

 

[dianeeh]

Abortion is an absolute evil, because it is the intentional murder of another human being. Yes, she is 11. And yes it is wrong that she was raped. But to have an abortion to feel more empowered isn’t the right answer.

Catholig

No, it isn’t. But neither is her killing herself and therefore her baby as well because her parents are forcing her to have the rapist’s baby.

 

[estesbob]

I am discussing the issue of pregnancy by rape in another forum.What Am I supposed to say to these people, who would kill a baby so that their 11 old girl can live happily? Is abortion justified in a situation like this? What about Incest rape (if that’s even a proper term)?

The answer is no, It is not justified-ever. Having said that one should keep in mind the agenda of those who throw out these far out scenarios. They, in most cases. support abortion in nearly every circumstance. They are trying to back you into a corner where you admit that “well in that case its OK” at which point they will call you a hypocrite if you oppose any abortion.

Bear in mind that rape, incest and the situation presented above account for far less than 1 percent of the 1.3 million abortions performed every year,. Dont let them force you to deabte on the fringes-let talk instead about the other 1.2 + million children aborted every year. After telling them abortion is never acceptable even to make your 11 year old child “happy” ask them under what circumsatnces they feel abortion is OK.

 

[dianeeh]

No matter how hard it is, poor health, physical suffering, and death are better than committing a moral evil. We simply may not do evil even in order to achieve some good result.

I guarantee that it is better to die than to have an abortion.

What good result?! We are talking about two alternatives: abortion which would kill an innocent human life or an 11 year old who will be called a whore by her cruel classmates and will relive the rape every time the baby kicks. Either way, she could lose it and we could lose her.

Of course, we have to keep in mind that no matter what evil things we do, God brings about good things as a result. So, even if the girl had an abortion (which is evil and therefore not an option), God could bring about good things in her life, but they would not be the good things that would have come if she had not had an abortion.

According to Vatican II, the Catholic church does not even judge Protestants. But a Catholic can judge what’s in an 11 year old stranger’s heart? Umm, yeeah, if you say so. Good luck with that. I don’t recall them going over that when I went through RCIA. Must be a new Encyclical or something.

 

[dianeeh]

Dianeeh, thanks for the detail. It it did not come across that way the way it was originally written. Apologies.

In Christ - J.M.J.
Mapleoak

No worries!

 

[estesbob]

What good result?! We are talking about two alternatives: abortion which would kill an innocent human life or an 11 year old who will be called a whore by her cruel classmates and will relive the rape every time the baby kicks. Either way, she could lose it and we could lose her.

.

I never counseled an 11 year old but i did counsel my share or 13 and 14 year olds. Beleive me in todays culture she is not going to be called a lot of names for getting pregnant, She will also probably be placed in a special class for pregant students. When i counsel in these situations i always tell them they are faced with a dilema-the definition of a dilema being you look at all of the alternatives and none of them look good! But of the three alternatives availabe(adotion, parenting and abortion) two of the three result in her haivng the awesome privelge of helping God to bring a new human life into the world…

I push hard for them to place the Child for adoption.I have found the best way is to talk about God having a plan for all of us and that for most people that plan is for a married couple with Children. By placng her child for adoption she is helping God complete his plan for a couple unable to bear children on their own.

 

[Catholig]

Dianeeh,

The child deserves to live. It was given a soul by God himself, and being human has the same unalienable rights as the rest of us. It has the right to live. To feel. To breath. If god saw fit to create it, indeed to give it a soul so that it may love him and spend eternity with him just like all of us, why should we destroy it, and possibly hinder its pursuit to God. Truly, I empathise with the girl, who did nothing wrong, but to have an abortion in order to be “empowered” is wrong. Your entire argument rests on it being an either or choice, which I doubt reflects the situation accurately. I am positive that both lives could be saved. And if not - who should die? I don’t know. But why allow her to make a mortal sin, which tears the soul to shreads?

Catholig

P.S. Is this the only situation you’d advocate abortion? Or would you advocate it for say a 20 year old who was raped as well?

 

[dianeeh]

Dianeeh,

The child deserves to live. It was given a soul by God himself, and being human has the same unalienable rights as the rest of us. It has the right to live. To feel. To breath. If god saw fit to create it, indeed to give it a soul so that it may love him and spend eternity with him just like all of us, why should we destroy it, and possibly hinder its pursuit to God. Truly, I empathise with the girl, who did nothing wrong, but to have an abortion in order to be “empowered” is wrong. Your entire argument rests on it being an either or choice, which I doubt reflects the situation accurately. I am positive that both lives could be saved. And if not - who should die? I don’t know. But why allow her to make a mortal sin, which tears the soul to shreads?

Catholig

P.S. Is this the only situation you’d advocate abortion? Or would you advocate it for say a 20 year old who was raped as well?

I don’t advocate abortion for anyone at any age, regardless of situation.

 

[dianeeh]

I never counseled an 11 year old but i did counsel my share or 13 and 14 year olds. Beleive me in todays culture she is not going to be called a lot of names for getting pregnant, She will also probably be placed in a special class for pregant students. When i counsel in these situations i always tell them they are faced with a dilema-the definition of a dilema being you look at all of the alternatives and none of them look good! But of the three alternatives availabe(adotion, parenting and abortion) two of the three result in her haivng the awesome privelge of helping God to bring a new human life into the world…

I push hard for them to place the Child for adoption.I have found the best way is to talk about God having a plan for all of us and that for most people that plan is for a married couple with Children. By placng her child for adoption she is helping God complete his plan for a couple unable to bear children on their own.

BRAVO!!! I am so glad that things are changing!!! Life should be celebrated, not trampled on! Kids can be so mean, so it’s great that there are programs like the ones you mention!

 

[mapleoak]

It is a sad reflection that abortion should ever even be considered. Yes, the direct commision of abortion is murder and is an intrinsic evil. In all cases, it amounts to selfishness. In the example of Christ’s death on the cross, He could have killed those who going to put Him to death. Rather He laid down His life for THEM.

In Christ - J.M.J.
Mapleoak

 

[dianeeh]

It is a sad reflection that abortion should ever even be considered. Yes, the direct commision of abortion is murder and is an intrinsic evil. In all cases, it amounts to selfishness. In the example of Christ’s death on the cross, He could have killed those who going to put Him to death. Rather He laid down His life for THEM.

In Christ - J.M.J.
Mapleoak

EXACTLY. Jesus made the conscious choice to lay down his life for us. Actually, he lived every moment of his life for us.