Defending the Catholic Faith

[guanophore]

Since you too are claiming that historic confessional Protestants preach a different gospel than what Paul proclaimed, please proclaim the true gospel to me so I can repent of my error. As you noticed, Catholics have a hard time proclaiming the gospel according the the Apostle Paul. Here is an easy question: what must I do to be saved?

We do not see St. Paul in a vacuum as you do. We do not excise his teachings from the context in which they occurred. The reason we interpret what is written differently is because we read it from the same frame of mind as those who wrote it. This is the perspective that wes lost when the Reformers decided to jettison Apostolic Succession.

We believe that salvation is found in everything that Jesus did, and taught.

I have been told by some Reformed Evangelicals on this Board that “Jesus did not really have much to say about salvation”.

 

[guanophore]

This is not trolling. Since I have been told that I hold to a gospel under the curse of God, please proclaim the true gospel which the Apostle Paul proclaimed to sinners.

You were not told that, 2nd. You have taken this upon yourself.

You are preaching only that which you received. You have always believed that it was the fullness of the Truth.

 

[2nd_Adam]

We do not see St. Paul in a vacuum as you do. We do not excise his teachings from the context in which they occurred. The reason we interpret what is written differently is because we read it from the same frame of mind as those who wrote it. This is the perspective that wes lost when the Reformers decided to jettison Apostolic Succession.

We believe that salvation is found in everything that Jesus did, and taught.

I have been told by some Reformed Evangelicals on this Board that “Jesus did not really have much to say about salvation”.

That’s not the gospel in which the Apostles preached.

But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. - Paul

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Born Again to a Living Hope

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not reading links by Catholics if they truly know the true gospel. Simply proclaim the gospel to me as if you were preaching to me.

1 Corinthians 9:16

For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!

I think I will pass, 2nd. It seems that you are angry, indignant, and offended by the little I have already said to you. I think that you are so hostile to the Catholic faith that you cannot even receive Christ from the Catholic Church.

Remember those Bereans? They were more noble because they received the Apostolic preaching with eagerness. You do not have this noble frame of mind. You indicated that you were throwing down a gauntlet (actually, you said you had a Samurai sword) with regard to this topic. It is not my desire to foster contention here. Apparently my observations have engendered a combative spirit in you.

You have never answered my question. Now that you realize that what you have embraced is considered “a diffferent gospel” than what Pope Benedict has taught, and what the Catholic Church believes, what is your purpose on CAF?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I’m sorry… but LOL (not to be disrespectful). I am asking for you to proclaim the gospel to me.

Acts 8:25
Now when they had testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.

Acts 8:40
But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

Acts 14:7
and there they continued to preach the gospel.

Acts 14:21
When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch,

Acts 15:7
And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

Acts 16:10
And when Paul[1] had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go on into Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

Acts 20:24
But I do not account my life of any value nor as precious to myself, if only I may finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

Some things that Paul said, which you seem to think are irrelevant:

Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

If the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, and we are to hold on to the oral teachings of the apostles, then you are clearly missing part of the gospel.

Jesus did not leave us as orphans.

He gave us a Church led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Good night to my separated half siblings in Christ. Maybe you guys can sleep on it, and let me know in the morning what is the good news that Catholics have to share and proclaim to the world and the church. So far, I hear no good news from the Catholics who have posted on this site. You can defend the Catholic Faith without understanding the great good news of God.

Romans 1:15

So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Some things that Paul said, which you seem to think are irrelevant:

Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

These things are biblical truth, but it is not part of the gospel proclamation. Defending the Catholic Faith does not mean that you have proclaimed the good news to me.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

These things are biblical truth, but it is not part of the gospel proclamation.

A-hem? According to which apostle (chapter and verse please) is it to be believed that those–or any–Scriptures are ‘Biblical truth but not part of the gospel proclamation’.

And the Scripture please which states, “All the following, and those only, are to be considered, and only to be considered, the sum total of the gospel proclamation”. “And any other scripture, yea, is only to be considered ‘biblical truth’.”

 

[2nd_Adam]

Good night separated siblings in Christ. Pleasant dreams.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

These things are biblical truth, but it is not part of the gospel proclamation. Defending the Catholic Faith does not mean that you have proclaimed the good news to me.

In your current state, you may view it this way.

 

[guanophore]

It is very difficult to take you guys seriously ....

Yes. I think you have not been taking us seriously since you got here.

You seemed to think you could manipulate us with your thread about Luther and Pope Benedict. It did not work, and you seemed to get frustrated.

… if not one Catholic is able to proclaim the good news of God to someone who is sincerly asking. I am gently and respectfully asking for you to share the hope that you have according to your gospel.

Actually, you seem to be anything but sincere. Indignant is a better word. You have taken a curse unto yourself, and blamed it on people here. You have been anything but “gentle” in your demands and insults when you dont get your demands.

I almost never get a Catholic to respond to my request to proclaim the gospel, simply because Catholics do not really know the gospel to which to proclaim.

Do you really expect me to take this statement as a “gentle and respectful” expression?

Frankly it sounds quite condescending to me.

you are required to defend the gospel according to Jude 3.

Here you are informing me what I am required to do.

So you have turned up the notch to just below the boling point.

Here you are blaming your “boiling point” on me.

Be there to defend the truth of the gospel, if you dare. I have to warn you, my samuri sword is much more powerful than your kung fu!

Here you are addressing me in the imperative (command) mode.

You are implying that I may lack the boldness to defend my faith, and warning me about what will happen when I attempt to do so.

No, I do not see receptivity, respect, or gentleness in your posts.

 

[guanophore]

That’s not the gospel…

This is how the pattern goes. You already have in your head what you believe to be true.

You challenge others to tell you their point of view. They tell, then you respond that they are wrong, because it does not agree with your preconceived notions. Do you see how this might make any meaningful dialogue difficult?

Therefore, share the gospel of God which saves sinners if you are able.  I doubt that you know the biblical gospel.

Indeed this is a very true statement. You are approaching this task from the position of “I doubt”. That frame of mind will make it very difficult for you to see anything from a different point of view than your own.

You are also correct that most Catholics are unable to articulate what you refer to as “the biblical gospel”. This is because it is a recent innovation of the Reformation. Catholics, if they know their faith at all, are versed in the Apostolic gospel, which predated the bible by 400 years, and did not mysteriously disappear when some of it was written down and canonized.

Please let me help my separate brethrens, step brothers, or 1/2 brothers, and I will help you understand the gospel according to the Scriptures.

A little more condescending attitude to demonstrate your gentleness?
2nd Adam;5803407:

Now, if the gospel according to the Scriptures is not the Catholic Gospel, then someone is believing and proclaiming a different gospel.

Actually, if there is a difference, it is in your perceptions of the meaning of the Scriptures. Since the NT was written by Catholics, there is nothing in it that contradicts Catholic Teaching. That was one of the standards for canonization. No books that had any content inconsistent with Apostolic Teaching preserved in the Church were permitted in the NT.

:… if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain…"

One of those conditional statements (if) and a reference that it is possible to fall from the faith.

 

[Holly3278]

The offer was to go to that link IF you wanted to learn more. You’re the one asking for answers, so… have you gone there and read with an honest effort to try and understand the differences? Does something have to be “official” for you to gain understanding from it? Would you prefer links to the Vatican website and the CCC instead?

I would also like to know this. If he does want links to the Vatican website and the Catechism, he should know that they are often harder to understand than the tracts at Catholic Answers. Catholic Answers tracts all have an imprimatur and/or a nihil obstat. This means that they teach the faith correctly.

Anyway, here’s a link to the Catechism and a link to the Vatican’s website:

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

vatican.va/

 

[guanophore]

That is not the gospel proclaimed in the Scriptures.

I am certain that it is not as you perceive it.

Do you see Peter or Paul preaching this Christian creed  in the book of Acts?

2nd, what you do not seem to understand is that the NT is not the Source of the Gospel. Jesus is the Source, and He committed that Gospel to the Apostles. The NT reflects that Apostolic Teaching, but is not the Source of it.

So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.

yes, it has become clear that this was your private agenda from the beginning. What is important for you to understand is that such activity is against the forum rules here. It might be of benefit for you, if you wish to continue posting here, to read them before you continue. I also recommend that you read the rules of the non-catholic religions forum. I think it will become clear that making “bible christians” out of Catholics does not fall within the goals of the forum.

I can’t answer that, unless you think the Catholics who posted that a believe in a different gospel under the curse of God made an incorrect statement.

I think it is incorrect for you to assume that the Pauline curse applies to you.

It is so dumb to say that historic confessional Protestants hold to a different gospel under the curse of God on one hand, and on the other hand call us your separated brethren. Do you see my frustration!

I do see your frustration, and I agree with you. Unlike those false Apostles that wanted to draw the faithful away from Christ, you are much more like Apollos, who was far from cursed!

There are several Catholics who stated in writing that I believe in a different gospel and applied the anathema revealed in Galatians 1.

Can you provide any evidence to back up this claim?

  Here's your chance to clarify what you believe.  Do you believe historic confessional Protestants believe in a different gospel than you?

I am really not sure what you mean by the terms “historic confessional Protestants”. All I know is that what you are proclaiming is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.

I wil continue to ask you as well as many other Catholics, please proclaim the true gospel to me according to the Apostles.

You have made it abundantly clear that you have already made up your mind what you believe, and there is nothing we can say that you will receive. It seems that what you are really asking is that we proclaim to you what you already believe, and agree that it is Apostolic. We cannot do that. We are not permitted to espouse what you are preaching. To us, it constitutes a different gospel.

Okay, if I believe in a distorted and incomplete gospel, please proclaim the true complete and undistorted gospel according to the Apostles.

This attempt has been made repeatedly, 2nd. You are not willing or able to receive it. If you were to go back and look over the thread you started on justification, you will see that your links to Pope Benedict’s writings, and the links posted for your benefit, and the statements of Catholics on that thread tried to attempt this for 400+ posts. I think if you were willing to hear it, you would have by now!

It seems that you have your mind made up that your perception of the bible is the correct one, and anything that does not agree with your view is wrong.

You guys write about everything except the gospel.

I am sure it seems that way to you. This is one way we know that your gospel is truncated. You think that the “readers digest” condensed version is the whole gospel.

I am convinced that Catholics are unable to proclaim the true gospel to me.

I believe this. I think you were convinced of this before this discussion began. I think you conviction in this matter is what is making it impossible for you to hear anything that is offered.
2nd Adam;5803811:

So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.

2nd, CAF is here to provide Catholic Answers to persons making sincere inquiries. You have demonstrated that your inquiries are not sincere, and that you are not interested in our answers. You are interested only in convincing us that your perspective is the right one.

CAF is not provided as a venue for you to evangelize Catholics. If you are eager to do this, you will need to find another venue. Have you considered opening your own forum?

I’m sorry… but LOL (not to be disrespectful). …

And yet, you are…

I am asking for you to proclaim the gospel to me.

No, you are not. You are asking us to parrot your trucated gospel back to you. We don’t want to play, so you tell us we are inept.

What purpose would you have in asking us for something that you are already convinced we cannot give you? You imagine that you are setting the stage so that you can “proclaim the Gospel to you who are in Rome”. What you don’t realize is that you have completely disqualified yourself.

These things are biblical truth, but it is not part of the gospel proclamation. Defending the Catholic Faith does not mean that you have proclaimed the good news to me.

I understand that it seems this way to you. I also think there is nothing from the Catholic Church that will seem like good news to you. The Catholic faith embodies the Teaching of Jesus through the Apostles. This includes authority and obedience. I am quite sure these elements will not be “good news” to you. You can’t even seem to accept the authority of CAF, or obey the forum rules!

Good night to my separated half siblings in Christ. Maybe you guys can sleep on it, and let me know in the morning what is the good news that Catholics have to share and proclaim to the world and the church. So far, I hear no good news from the Catholics who have posted on this site. You can defend the Catholic Faith without understanding the great good news of God.

Romans 1:15

So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.

I am afraid that sleep will not make the news sound any better to you, 2nd. There are none so deaf as those who do not wish to hear.

 

[why_me]

The Catholic faith does not need defending and your faith does not need attacking nor does it need defending. You seem to be a good person who is grounded in Christ. That is good enough for me. And many catholics on this forum are also good people who are grounded in Christ.

Now of course I am mainly on the Mormon threads defending the LDS church. I think that mormons are good people who are also grounded in Christ. All different faiths and yet all striving to get closer to Christ. And that is also good enough for me. Too many christians are battling it out on the internet declaring who is right and who is wrong. Let there be love and harmony and care and nurturing and maybe we can all create a better world.

 

[guanophore]

All different faiths and yet all striving to get closer to Christ. And that is also good enough for me. Too many christians are battling it out on the internet declaring who is right and who is wrong. Let there be love and harmony and care and nurturing and maybe we can all create a better world.

It is not loving to confirm people in error.

 

[prodigalson12]

As Christians, we are commanded to to proclaim and defend the gospel of God. Since I apparently believe and proclaim a different gospel, here is your chance to defend the Catholic Faith. Why is my gospel different than your gospel?

Same gospel, just missing a few books and require in some Protestant endorsed versions, some minor edits in it’s texts, but it’s very much the same gospel, same God. Not sure it merited an entire thread, but alas, 4 pages into it, guess some people need to have a hobby, lol.

God speed with you all my brothers and sisters

Ok, back to the thread that hijacked mine into this one. Don’t expect a response from me here, this is just a crazy indulgence, figured I’d respond and point right back to it… forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=383970&goto=newpost

 

[benedictus2]

As Christians, we are commanded to to proclaim and defend the gospel of God. Since I apparently believe and proclaim a different gospel, here is your chance to defend the Catholic Faith. Why is my gospel different than your gospel?

First of all I am don’t know what sort of Gospel you are proclaiming so I have no way of knowing whether you are preaching a different Gospel.

So first of all you really need to lay out exactly what gospel you believe. Then we can tell you whether we have a different gospel or not.

For us Catholics, the Gospel is Jesus Christ Himself. And when I say that I mean the whole Christ as proclaimed in the NT not just little bits and pieces of Him.

 

[Newbie2]

Please let me help my separate brethrens, step brothers, or 1/2 brothers, and I will help you understand the gospel according to the Scriptures. Now, if the gospel according to the Scriptures is not the Catholic Gospel, then someone is believing and proclaiming a different gospel.

**Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,** that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. - Apostle Paul

You seem “Stuck on Paul”. There are other aspects of the Gospel not found in Paul’s writings.

That is not the gospel proclaimed according to the Scriptures. Do you see Peter or Paul preaching this Christian creed in the book of Acts?

So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.
Paul

The creed is not the gospel which the Apostles preached! Please, let me help you.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, **“The righteous shall live by faith.” ** - Paul

Duh. It wasn’t written until long after the Apostles were gone. However, it proclaims the essentials in the faith that they did preach.

You guys write about everything except the gospel. I am convinced that Catholics are unable to proclaim the true gospel to me.

Not in a way you’ll accept; in this way, you’re absolutely correct. So why do you persist in this thread if you’re convinced of such?

These things are biblical truth, but it is not part of the gospel proclamation. Defending the Catholic Faith does not mean that you have proclaimed the good news to me.

This is like having a discussion with a five-year old. You’ve obviously set you mind on what the Gospel message is, reject everything else, yet still issue a challenge.

Homey don’t play that. Good luck.

 

[2nd_Adam]

We do not see St. Paul in a vacuum as you do. We do not excise his teachings from the context in which they occurred. The reason we interpret what is written differently is because we read it from the same frame of mind as those who wrote it. This is the perspective that wes lost when the Reformers decided to jettison Apostolic Succession.

We believe that salvation is found in everything that Jesus did, and taught.

I have been told by some Reformed Evangelicals on this Board that “Jesus did not really have much to say about salvation”.

Protestants do not see Paul in a vacuum. Although he wrote 1/2 of the New Testament if you think he wrote Hebrews. You have to admit, Paul has expounded the gospel more than others in the Bible, especially in the book of Romans and Galatians. Here is the gospel according to Jesus:

For God So Loved the World

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” - Jesus