Defending the Catholic Faith

[guanophore]

READ THESE WORDS VERY CAREFULLY…ready children?

Jason, it is not conducive to good dialogue to present such a condescending attitude. You have had several expressions of this kind, belittling your readers. Personally, I find it offensive, and I am sure our separated brethren are not impressed with your example of a “gentle spirit”.

There is NO Gospel according to PAUL. He PROCLAIMED the Gospel, There is NO GOSPEL ACCORDING TO PAUL. GET THAT IN YOUR HEAD. MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE, JOHN. Not Bobby his brother, not Joey the pizza guy, & certainly not Paul! 4 Gospels. That’s it!!!

You were making disparaging remarks about having to educate people who dont know their scripture, but it appears that it is you that does not know the scripture.

Romans 2:16
16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

Galatians 1:11
Paul Defends His Ministry ] For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me

2 Timothy 2:8
8Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,

Maybe Paul did not write a book of memoirs after the manner of Matt, Mk. Lk. and John, but he most certainly had “his” gospel. He had a strong conviction that what he preached, the good news of Christ was according to his gospel.

Please acknowledge this for the sake of the discussion, so that we can move on. The OP is exploring the differences between how Catholic conceive the gospel, and how those of the Reformed tradition perceive it. Denying the facts is not helpful.

 

[2nd_Adam]

READ THESE WORDS VERY CAREFULLY…ready children?

There are ONLY 4 GOSPELS IN CANON.

They are MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE, & JOHN.

That’s IT.

There is NO Gospel according to PAUL. He PROCLAIMED the Gospel, There is NO GOSPEL ACCORDING TO PAUL. GET THAT IN YOUR HEAD. MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE, JOHN. Not Bobby his brother, not Joey the pizza guy, & certainly not Paul! 4 Gospels. That’s it!!!

Paul preached the gospel to sinners.

No Other Gospel - Gal 1

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Romans 15:20
and thus I make it my ambition to preach the gospel, not where Christ has already been named, lest I build on someone else’s foundation,

Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to strengthen you **according to my gospel **and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages

1 Corinthians 9:18
What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

2 Corinthians 11:7
Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God’s gospel to you free of charge?

1 Corinthians 9:16
For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!

 

[2nd_Adam]

Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again.

That’s your gospel that you share with sinners? There is no good news what that…

 

[2nd_Adam]

Jason, it is not conducive to good dialogue to present such a condescending attitude. You have had several expressions of this kind, belittling your readers. Personally, I find it offensive, and I am sure our separated brethren are not impressed with your example of a “gentle spirit”.

You were making disparaging remarks about having to educate people who dont know their scripture, but it appears that it is you that does not know the scripture.

Romans 2:16
16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

Galatians 1:11
Paul Defends His Ministry ] For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me

2 Timothy 2:8
8Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,

Maybe Paul did not write a book of memoirs after the manner of Matt, Mk. Lk. and John, but he most certainly had “his” gospel. He had a strong conviction that what he preached, the good news of Christ was according to his gospel.

Please acknowledge this for the sake of the discussion, so that we can move on. The OP is exploring the differences between how Catholic conceive the gospel, and how those of the Reformed tradition perceive it. Denying the facts is not helpful.

Thanks seperated brother… oops I mean brother in Christ. Did you know Chestonrules is on my friends list. Your welcome to be on my friends list too. Maybe we should take a break from each other and share the gospel of God’s grace with our Mormon friends on the Holy Spirit Mormon thread? I could use your help over there.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=385079&page=6

 

[guanophore]

Thanks seperated brother… oops I mean brother in Christ. Did you know Chestonrules is on my friends list. Your welcome to be on my friends list too. Maybe we should take a break from each other and share the gospel of God’s grace with our Mormon friends on the Holy Spirit Mormon thread? I could use your help over there.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=385079&page=6

You are most welcome, brother in Christ.

No, I will pass on the Mormons. I pretty much avoid Mormons and atheists on CAF. You will all be in my prayers, though!

 

[Jason_1977]

Outreach Project - From Catholic Answers

Our web outreach efforts are very effective, reaching millions of people around the globe with the Good News of Jesus Christ.

What is the Good News of Jesus Christ according to Catholic Christians?

I never claimed to be an evangelist, just an apologist. Ya said there’s a gospel acording to paul & there isn’t. The gospel was preached by paul. Secondly, you accused me of misquoting scripture, I quoted correctly, it was you who forgot that verse 13 in the 2nd chapter of Philippians in not in fact the 2nd half of the 12th verse. I’m not an evangelist. BUT If we are to have a conversation, amongst believers, then at least get the basics right.

 

[2nd_Adam]

You are most welcome, brother in Christ.

No, I will pass on the Mormons. I pretty much avoid Mormons and atheists on CAF. You will all be in my prayers, though!

I love sharing Christ and Him crucified with Mormons and Athesist. I acutally enjoy those all religion websites the best. There are many hostile Mormons and Atheist on those sites. Have you been on this site? I’ve been banned at least a dozen times for preaching the gospel over there. But you know, we have to obey God and not man.

religiousforums.com/forum/

 

[2nd_Adam]

I never claimed to be an evangelist, just an apologist. Ya said there’s a gospel acording to paul & there isn’t. The gospel was preached by paul. Secondly, you accused me of misquoting scripture, I quoted correctly, it was you who forgot that verse 13 in the 2nd chapter of Philippians in not in fact the 2nd half of the 12th verse. I’m not an evangelist. BUT If we are to have a conversation, amongst believers, then at least get the basics right.

I think we should all consider being an evangelist first and an apologist second. We are commande to contend for the faith (Jude 3), but happy is the feet who bring good news.

The Message of Salvation to All

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? [3] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. - Rom 10

Check out Catholic Answers in the outreach Program. Maybe they agree with me on bringing the good news to the lost first before being an apologist?

Outreach Project - CA

Our web outreach efforts are very effective, reaching millions of people around the globe with the Good News of Jesus Christ.

 

[Jason_1977]

Jason, it is not conducive to good dialogue to present such a condescending attitude. You have had several expressions of this kind, belittling your readers. Personally, I find it offensive, and I am sure our separated brethren are not impressed with your example of a “gentle spirit”.

You were making disparaging remarks about having to educate people who dont know their scripture, but it appears that it is you that does not know the scripture.

Romans 2:16
16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

Galatians 1:11
Paul Defends His Ministry ] For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me

2 Timothy 2:8
8Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,

Maybe Paul did not write a book of memoirs after the manner of Matt, Mk. Lk. and John, but he most certainly had “his” gospel. He had a strong conviction that what he preached, the good news of Christ was according to his gospel.

Please acknowledge this for the sake of the discussion, so that we can move on. The OP is exploring the differences between how Catholic conceive the gospel, and how those of the Reformed tradition perceive it. Denying the facts is not helpful.

My brother in Catholicism & Christ, if we are to have this particular conversation I would like to throw this out and let me say, this is “One”.

TITUS 3:8-11

8 It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. 9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: 11 Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

Now that I have stated the conditions under which I engage in this conversation, I’d first like to tell you that I was not having a conversation with you. If it offended you, then you must not look in places you know could be a possibility of being a place where grown ups talk.

Secondly, as I informed him, he was wrong in accusing me of not knowing scripture. I quoted Phil. 2:12. He said I left part of it out. That 2nd half of Phil 2:12 would be called verse 13 my friend.

Thirdly, There is Paul. The minister. Proclaimer of the Gospels. You can throw whatever you like at me scripture-wise. There is NO Gospel according to Paul. Paul’s ministry was to proclaim the gospels to the nations. There is the Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of Matthew, the Gospel of John, and the Gospel of Luke. They’re out of order so I can hang on to your attention. The teachings in the gospels are what Paul set out to do, got arrested for. You can see his trials & tribulations in doing so. None the less, that is not a gospel. IF that is a gospel, to you, then GOSPEL in the context in which I’m using it, does not mean what YOU think it means.

This is attempt one of two. I will break it down for you only once more if I need to. After that, I will do as Titus 3 8-11 says when dealing in these matters. ** Thank you**.:coffeeread:

 

[Jason_1977]

I think we should all consider being an evangelist first and an apologist second. We are commande to contend for the faith (Jude 3), but happy is the feet who bring good news.

The Message of Salvation to All

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? [3] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. - Rom 10

Check out Catholic Answers in the outreach Program. Maybe they agree with me on bringing the good news to the lost first before being an apologist?

Outreach Project - CA

Our web outreach efforts are very effective, reaching millions of people around the globe with the Good News of Jesus Christ.

You do what you do best, & I will use the gifts god gave me to do what I DO best. A person that doesnt know Phil. 2:12 from 13 has no business telling me how and where or why I should be evangelizing.:coffeeread:

 

[2nd_Adam]

You do what you do best, & I will use the gifts god gave me to do what I DO best. A person that doesnt know Phil. 2:12 from 13 has no business telling me how and where or why I should be evangelizing.:coffeeread:

Last point for awhile, the chapters and verses are not inspired. The letters are meant to be read in context of the entire letter. Phil 2:12 and 2:13 are of the same sentence.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

 

[Jason_1977]

Last point for awhile, the chapters and verses are not inspired. The letters are meant to be read in context of the entire letter. Phil 2:12 and 2:13 are of the same sentence.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of charity, if any society of the spirit, if any bowels of commiseration:

2 Fulfil ye my joy, that you may be of one mind, having the same charity, being of one accord, agreeing in sentiment.

3 Let nothing be done through contention, neither by vain glory: but in humility, let each esteem others better than themselves:

4 Each one not considering the things that are his own, but those that are other men’s.

5 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.

8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

9 For which cause God also hath exalted him, and hath given him a name which is above all names:

10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

**12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will. **

14 And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations;

15 That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world.

16 Holding forth the word of life to my glory in the day of Christ, because I have not run in vain, nor laboured in vain.

17 Yea, and if I be made a victim upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I rejoice, and congratulate with you all.

18 And for the selfsame thing do you also rejoice, and congratulate with me.

19 And I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy unto you shortly, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know the things concerning you.

20 For I have no man so of the same mind, who with sincere affection is solicitous for you.

21 For all seek the things that are their own; not the things that are Jesus Christ’s.

22 Now know ye the proof of him, that as a son with the father, so hath he served with me in the gospel.

23 Him therefore I hope to send unto you immediately, so soon as I shall see how it will go with me.

24 And I trust in the Lord, that I myself also shall come to you shortly.

25 But I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother and fellow labourer, and fellow soldier, but your apostle, and he that hath ministered to my wants.

26 For indeed he longed after you all: and was sad, for that you had heard that he was sick.

27 For indeed he was sick, nigh unto death; but God had mercy on him; and not only on him, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

28 Therefore I sent him the more speedily: that seeing him again, you may rejoice, and I may be without sorrow.

29 Receive him therefore with all joy in the Lord; and treat with honour such as he is.

30 Because for the work of Christ he came to the point of death: delivering his life, that he might fulfil that which on your part was wanting towards my service.

The verses really save the room & trouble of a whole chapter or letter. Again, I agree that verses are to be taken in the context of the letter, but I’m not attempting to be poetic, and definitely not dealing w. a frequent reader of scripture. BUT THERE’S ch. 2.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Pauline theology… or the 12 or 13 letters of Paul favors heavily with confessional Protestant theology. If you disagree, I challenge you to start the thread in discussing our theologies with only using the 13 letters of Paul.

 

[Jason_1977]

Pauline theology… or the 12 or 13 letters of Paul favors heavily with confessional Protestant theology. If you disagree, I challenge you to start the thread in discussing our theologies with only using the 13 letters of Paul.

Christianity stems from the teachings of the 4 gospels. If you disagree, I challenge you to start a thread that states that THERE IS SUCH A THING AS THE GOSPEL OF PAUL. I have no interest in offshoots or what have you. I’ll discuss paul for the sake of discussing paul, but I’m not going to sit here & listen to side street babble about PAUL having a GOSPEL. WAY out of context. He preached them, he went to great lengths to make sure the world at large understood what jesus did, but THAT sir, is NOT a gospel. It’s excellent in its teachings, and I cannot deny the truth of what paul is teaching, but there is no way on this planet or yours, that you will convince me that ALL of those books are the Gospel of Paul, I mean, call it what it is. No WAY is that a gospel. I’m sorry. Bend Christianity any way you like. I’m not going to subscribe to it.

 

[Jason_1977]

…didn’t think so…:coffeeread:

 

[benedictus2]

You ask how Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was translated in righteousness for Presbyterians?

Well, I’m one - just a layman with no theology school, mind you. So, I’m a simple man who tries to study his faith from a historical and biblical perspective. I’ll give it a shot.

We have the understanding that God requires an eternal punishment for each sin that is committed. If did not inherit Adam’s nature was born dead into sin, lived a perfect life, but sinned only once (not possible, I’m taking things to extreme) I would still face an eternity in Hell as punishment for my sin. I think most orthodox Christians would agree with that.

If you did not inherit Adam’s nature then you would not sin even only once.

Now, our further understanding is that Christ was the atonement for our sins on the cross. I think this is where we differ – we believe that Christ died for the Elect only and paid an eternal penalty on the cross for not only each and ever believer, but for each and every sin that believer had ever, or would ever commit.

If Christ died for the elect only, the God is an unjust, psychopathic murderous god.

Why do I say this?
God created everyone. He is the author of life. By your reasoning, from the moment of our conception (who He happens to have instigated), he has already decided who will form part of the elect. So therefore from conception, he has already decided that some men are destined for damnation. They had no say in it whatsover.

Well picture this. A couple who plans, conceives and gives birth to 5 children. From the time they planned the pregnancy, they have already decided that 2 of them the will love, the 3 they will maltreat and beat up in the dungeon for ever. Does that sound like a loving parent to you? And yet by analogy, you would have us believe that that is the kind of God you think God the Father is?

God knows His elect, knows what they will or have done and applied that wrath to Christ.

God foreknew everyone for the simple reason that He is the author of every single being.

So, we believe that Christ died for us in a very personal way. When I confess a sin, I confess knowing that the penalty imposed upon Christ for that sin was an eternal wrath poured out on the Cross.

So you are saying that God punished His Soh (by a rather ignorminiuos and horrible death at that) so we will escape punishment. Doesn’t that sound like divine child abuse to you?

This is part of the reason why the sufficiency of the cross is so important to us.

And to us too. But it all depends on what you mean by the cross being sufficient.

We’re a very real part of Christ’s torment.

Correct. And our salvation consist in carrying our cross in union with His suffering. We preach Christ crucified.

We disagree on salvation, I think, because we use different words to mean the same thing and the same word to mean different things.

What exactly are these words and what do you mean by these words?

A word picture on justification I use for my children.

Imagine that you awake and find yourself in a deep prison, chained to the wall and other people. You’re all lying in a foul mess, the stench is unbearable. It’s dark, cold and you are afraid. Suddenly, there is a light, you feel warmth and love; the light draws you, but suddenly you realize that you’re unable to go to the light. It is pure goodness and you are a slime-filled mess. Further, you realize that you are made of the slime – it’s in you, on you, made by you and – you’ve enjoyed being that mess. You weep, wanting that light and warmth and hope and desperately wanting to see your chains removed and to be with that light. You know that God is that light and you cannot be with God because you are filth and have been the enemy of the light. You cry out, “God save me – I am unclean and unable to save myself”, and suddenly see that Christ is with you, in the slime. He is not affected by it; His radiance drives away the dark and cold. Your chains fall off and suddenly you are clean, white and pure – you know that Christ has given you His nature. Now, you can come to the light and it’s all you want to do.

This one time justification is what we cannot lose.

That is a heart warming analogy but is not borne out by reality. We know that having been slime, we revert back to being slime even after being “so called saved”.
If anyone can say at this moment that they have not commited another sin after baptism or after “being born again” is a liar.

Once you seen again, you are once again "slime’ so not the clean,unshackled man anymore.

It’s a nature changing experience; we receive a heart of flesh for a heart of stone.

Yes, but we will continue to sin till we die.

At that time we begin our journey of sanctification – obedience to God as we work to become more like Christ. Our inner nature is changed, but our outer nature needs to be molded throughout our life.

I thought you said we have been freed and justified, un shackled, no longer slime. Why do we then have to WORK to become more like Christ if we are no longer “slime” and was already imputed Christ’s righteousness from the word go.?

Now, when we are justified, no red light is illuminated on our foreheads. We show no outer signs of conversion. We can only know that we have been given a gift of grace by God and made righteousness through Christ.

How do we know?

We can also not see anyone else’s inner nature to know who is regenerated and who is not. People lie about their faith, misunderstand or simply don’t know. This is where the tired old “Once Saved Always Saved” arguments come out.

No real Reformed Christian would tell you that a simple sinner’s prayer saved us. We did not decide to “get saved”. Nothing we could do would have allowed us to make that decision – we were dead in our sins and cannot assist God. That’s the Arminian wing – the emotional side of the Christian triangle.

We agree on this one.

If you do not believe in the “sinner’s prayer”, then do you believe in Baptism and it’s regenerative effect on the soul?

 

[benedictus2]

They need the tinglies. We see that God has moved, of His own accord, woken us from death, given us a new nature and that nature is what allowed us to suddenly desire to be with God.

I like the way you phrased that, for indeed, the desire is born. But how do you account for those who after being "regenerated’ become unregenerated again?

We see for the first time that we are sinners. A true inner conversion will not need to be repeated. Christ told us to be born again – not again and again and again…

Christ did not tell us to be born again. Christ said we must be “born from above”. It was Nicodemus who said we must be born again because He misunderstood what Christ said…

We see the Gospel message – the message that wakes the sinner from death and shows him that he is helpless, hopeless and destined for wrath - except for the grace of God and the righteousness of Christ, as simple. So simple a child can understand it. It does not require a theology lesson, church history lesson and an understanding of complex ideas – that’s for sanctification as we walk with Christ and become more and more conformed to His nature. Those things are important, but not for the Gospel.

Close but still rather deficient for it does not explain the natural goodness that you see in people who are not Christians.

Part 1 - We are dead in sin, enemies of God; we, by nature hate Him and love sin. Then, He reaches out, breathes life into us, giving us a new nature. We, being made alive see our sin, recoil from it and realize that we are helpless and hopeless. We cry out to God through Christ and are made righteousness for Christ’s sake – He already paid the penalty for our sins and we belong to Him.

Part 2 - After that, yes, we must be conformed to the nature of Christ or our belief that we have a new nature is a lie. Our sanctification is a life-long process of conforming, doing the works of God that He gives us faith to do and seeking to do His will. As humans, our ability to do this will wax and wane over our lives. At some points we’ll do better and others, we’ll fail. Still, our justification is secure – God has changed our nature and nothing we can do will allow us to undo His conversion. Just as we could do nothing to become alive in the first place.

Part 1 is a Gospel message. Part 2 is a life-style indicative of a justification experience.

Funny. Never once in your explanation of the Gospel did you mention love. That I think is the reason why your explanation is deficient.
God so loved the world that He gave us His Only Son, that through Him we may die to ourselves and live in Christ, that through Him we may love God above all and love others as Christ loved us. I think that is a more accurate summation of the Gospel.
The whole point of Salvation is Love, but your take on it is purely from a legalistic angle.

 

[benedictus2]

Do you not believe that Jesus perfect obedience was pleasing to the Father? If I am following you, you are making the point that, if perfect obedience to the law made satisfaction, he would have no reason to die?

His perfect satisfaction through the keeping of the Law was an expression of His unblemished nature, which was given for us as the sacrificial lamb.

Actually that is more to tweak their theology. If according to them we are saved by Christ’s perfect obedience of the Law (so this perfect obedience to the law is what actually “saves” us), since He has already done that perfectly, then there would not be any need to die, for salvation was already accomplished by this perfect obedience to the law.

Just trying to waken them to the murky areas of their reasoning.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Funny. Never once in your explanation of the Gospel did you mention love. That I think is the reason why your explanation is deficient.
God so loved the world that He gave us His Only Son, that through Him we may die to ourselves and live in Christ, that through Him we may love God above all and love others as Christ loved us. I think that is a more accurate summation of the Gospel.
The whole point of Salvation is Love, but your take on it is purely from a legalistic angle.

.

Hi Benedictus2,

I know your post was being addressed to ChosenandCalled, but here is my response to it. My question to you is… who is the US and WE in the verses below but believers alone. Christ and Him crucified is for Christian sinners only. Those sinners who do not know God through Jesus Christ are under the wrath and God… which is quite different than knowing the love of God as Christians.

Romans 5

Therefore, since** we **have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which **we **now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but **we **also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, when we were God’s enemies, **we **were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. - Rom 5

 

[benedictus2]

2Cor.5

[17] Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.
[18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
[19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
[20] So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
[21] For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The how is a good question that we may not understand this side of the veil. However we see the use of the scapegoat in the Law that forshadowed how He would take our sins. He is the Passover Lamb, which, as you recall, had to be perfect and unblemished.

Guano, I knew you would be able to answer this, but the question is to them .

I think of this being made sin in this way. Remember the laundry powerder DRIVE (maybe it is still on sale in the States).

If you think back to the commercial of the enzyme going into the grime causing it to disintegrate, I sort of think that Christ is that enzyme that goes into sin, a chemical that causes a reaction but is not affected by the reaction.

Another way to look at it is to take a an instance of sin - say pride. He became pride itself so that when we commit that sin of pride He is there with us in our sin for that is the only way we can overcome our sin, if he is that close to us when we are commiting it.

But that is only my musing.