Defending the Catholic Faith

  • Thread starter Thread starter 2nd_Adam
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hi Benedictus2,

I know your post was being addressed to ChosenandCalled, but here is my response to it. My question to you is… who is the US and WE in the verses below but believers alone.
Romans 5

Therefore, since** we **have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so, but **we **also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. - Rom 5

If you are going to read that strictly, then Paul was only referring to those He was writing to - the Romans. Remember that Paul thought that the end tiimes were near, so the intent of the “we” and “us” in Romans 5 does not include believers that were to come. IF you want to be literal about it.

So what do you say about that?

But to divert from Paul and go back to the actual Gospel, say John. God so loved the WORLD. No exceptions. Not some of the World, Not the believing half of the World. God so loved the whole World, that means every Tom, Dick, Harry, Tina, Debbie and Harriet. (perhaps excluding those whose names do not begin with T, D or H.😃
 
If you are going to read that strictly, then Paul was only referring to those He was writing to - the Romans. Remember that Paul thought that the end tiimes were near, so the intent of the “we” and “us” in Romans 5 does not include believers that were to come. IF you want to be literal about it.

So what do you say about that?

But to divert from Paul and go back to the actual Gospel, say John. God so loved the WORLD. No exceptions. Not some of the World, Not the believing half of the World. God so loved the whole World, that means every Tom, Dick, Harry, Tina, Debbie and Harriet. (perhaps excluding those whose names do not begin with T, D or H.😃
The Judgment at Christ’s Coming

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thes 1

The Words of Eternal Life

When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Jesus

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. - Jesus

Did Jesus die for the sheep or the goats according to the Word of God?

John 17

The High Priestly Prayer

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

Jesus taught the truths of Calvinism.
 
The Judgment at Christ’s Coming

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thes 1

The Words of Eternal Life

When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Jesus
Okay, the late night is probably making me more dense than normal but I don’t see how this answers my post.

Care to bring out the correlatoin?
 
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. - Jesus

Did Jesus die for the sheep or the goats according to the Word of God?
Now that is more like it.

Did Jesus die for the sheep or the goats? Well really for both. So that the sheep may be confirmed in their sheepness and the goats may become sheep :).

Christ said he did not come for the well but for the sick. He came for the sinners not the righteous.

Besides, if you look at the characteristics of the goats and the sheep, Jesus said so long as you did all these to the least of his brethren you did it to Him. Everyone of us I think, have at one time or another , clothed the naked, fed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, etc, etc. So in actual fact we are more like good goats and bad sheep.
 
Now that is more like it.

Did Jesus die for the sheep or the goats? Well really for both. So that the sheep may be confirmed in their sheepness and the goats may become sheep :).

Christ said he did not come for the well but for the sick. He came for the sinners not the righteous.

Besides, if you look at the characteristics of the goats and the sheep, Jesus said so long as you did all these to the least of his brethren you did it to Him. Everyone of us I think, have at one time or another , clothed the naked, fed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, etc, etc. So in actual fact we are more like good goats and bad sheep.
You are ignoring the Word of God my brother! We have sheep sinners, and we have goat sinners.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. - Jesus

The Final Judgment

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”

Who are His people but those whom the Father gave Him as His bride.
 
You are ignoring the Word of God my brother! We have sheep sinners, and we have goat sinners.

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. - Jesus
Nope, more like you misreading the Word of God or rather truncating the Word of God.

Jesus does indeed lay down his life of His sheep, the question is who belong to His Sheep?

Here is a clue: Those who belong to the flock that He entrusted to Peter. He said to Peter feed my lambs, look after my sheep. So where Peter is there are His sheep.😃
 
Nope, more like you misreading the Word of God or rather truncating the Word of God.

Jesus does indeed lay down his life of His sheep, the question is who belong to His Sheep?

Here is a clue: Those who belong to the flock that He entrusted to Peter. He said to Peter feed my lambs, look after my sheep. So where Peter is there are His sheep.😃
John 10:16

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold (Protestants, Anglicans, Orthodox). I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.😛
 
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,** that they may all be one**, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

Jesus taught the truths of Calvinism.
Jesus taught the truths of Calvinism??? What arrogance to say that Jesus taught the truths of Calvinism. My, my, so the situation is now reversed - Calvin has the truth and Jesus is merely teaching it !.:eek:

And no Calvinism did not follow Jesus’ truth. Jesus prayed that they may all be one. Hardly something that Calviin espoused considering that his theology has been use to break the Body of Christ into tiner, and tinier pieces.

Perhaps you should start sticking to the Gospel a little bit more in your quotations.
 
Jesus taught the truths of Calvinism??? What arrogance to say that Jesus taught the truths of Calvinism. My, my, so the situation is now reversed - Calvin has the truth and Jesus is merely teaching it !.:eek:

And no Calvinism did not follow Jesus’ truth. Jesus prayed that they may all be one. Hardly something that Calviin espoused considering that his theology has been use to break the Body of Christ into tiner, and tinier pieces.

Perhaps you should start sticking to the Gospel a little bit more in your quotations.
We are just discussing and debating the truths of Christianity as revealed in the Scriptures. Don’t get too emotional but try to handle the bibical challenges. I read a Catholic post in which the Catholic stated that the Catholic Church is Jesus. Be patient with each other in love (1 Cor 13).

Romans 15:4

For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
 
Nope, more like you misreading the Word of God or rather truncating the Word of God.

Jesus does indeed lay down his life of His sheep, the question is who belong to His Sheep?

Here is a clue: Those who belong to the flock that He entrusted to Peter. He said to Peter feed my lambs, look after my sheep. So where Peter is there are His sheep.😃
nice…:coffeeread:
 
I find it interesting that the responses I’ve seen lately say that reformed belief is lacking an understanding of love, yet this love concept being spouted is close to the heresy of universalism. If God loves everyone and allows some to die in their sins when He is capable of saving them, then He is evil. I don’t get it. That is not what my understanding of the RCC is. It is a hateful doctrine.

We seem to agree that the death of Christ is a limit atonement. We, of the Reformed faith, say it is limited by scope to those who are of the elect and His death was a sacrifice specific to those. My understanding of the Catholic church is that you limit it by power - that is, only those who hear and respond will be saved. Those who hear and do not respond are condemned.

I read God saying, in both OT and NT, “Jacob have I loved and Easu have I hated.” Before they were born and had any particular sins. God hated Easu before he was born. How is that? God chose to save Jacob and to reject Esau - this was His perfect choice, do you call God hateful for this?
 
I find it interesting that the responses I’ve seen lately say that reformed belief is lacking an understanding of love, yet this love concept being spouted is close to the heresy of universalism. If God loves everyone and allows some to die in their sins when He is capable of saving them, then He is evil. I don’t get it. That is not what my understanding of the RCC is. It is a hateful doctrine.

We seem to agree that the death of Christ is a limit atonement. We, of the Reformed faith, say it is limited by scope to those who are of the elect and His death was a sacrifice specific to those. My understanding of the Catholic church is that you limit it by power - that is, only those who hear and respond will be saved. Those who hear and do not respond are condemned.

I read God saying, in both OT and NT, “Jacob have I loved and Easu have I hated.” Before they were born and had any particular sins. God hated Easu before he was born. How is that? God chose to save Jacob and to reject Esau - this was His perfect choice, do you call God hateful for this?
How about a little help over here? :):yup:🍿

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=385079&page=8
 
I still have no idea what’s going on here what’s being debated. The subject changed…I’m lost
 
Are you talking about the Gospel that Christ said to for us to share with the world ?

from what I understand the meaning of “gospel” it means to preach about the birth of Jesus, the life of Jesus and his resurrection
 
Are you talking about the Gospel that Christ said to for us to share with the world ?

from what I understand the meaning of “gospel” it means to preach about the birth of Jesus, the life of Jesus and his resurrection
How about His death? I believe God the Father sent His Son into this sin cursed world to die.
 
Are you talking about the Gospel that Christ said to for us to share with the world ?

from what I understand the meaning of “gospel” it means to preach about the birth of Jesus, the life of Jesus and his resurrection
Bingo!!!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top