Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

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Kyrby_Caluna

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Pope Paul VI gave his blessings to the renewal of the charisms given by the Holy Spirit within the Catholic Church. Can anyone defend this movement for the sake of the Holy Spirit who is guiding the Church with the charisms which the Church has always possessed? I want to defend this movement as an aftermath of the ‘inspired’ Second Vatican Council. But I don’t know where to start.
 
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but “trolololol”

If you want to start a discussion on it, stop virtual shouting!:mad:
 
That is some big and bold lettering. It’s almost impossible to even read the question at hand.
 
Kyrby_Caluna said:
Pope Paul VI gave his blessings to the renewal of the charisms given by the Holy Spirit within the Catholic Church. Can anyone defend this movement for the sake of the Holy Spirit who is guiding the Church with the charisms which the Church has always possessed? I want to defend this movement as an aftermath of the ‘inspired’ Second Vatican Council. But I don’t know where to start.
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Hi Kyrby: What some others are saying is that normally in email and forums, when one bolds text, or enlarges the size of the text, the understanding by others is that they are shouting at them.

I’m sure you did not mean to shout.

Peace
 
Many key leaders of the CCR have their origins in disobedience to the church. In 1967, Fr. Francis Macnutt, a key leader in the CCR was present at a PROTESTANT laying on of hands service where he received the “gift” of the holy spirit.

Interesting, since the Holy Spirit is not given outside the church. The last thing we need is spiritual “fulfillment” from Protestants.
 
Well here’s a couple ways why the charismatic movement was inspired by the Holy spirit and the Second Vatican Council. Bl. Pope John XXIII started the council with the intention of igniting a new Pentecost in the church. The prayer he had promulgated just before the council was a prayer to the Holy Spirit asking “renew in your Church your miracles as of a second Pentecost”. Then during the actual Council, it reaffirmed the importance of the charismatic dimension.

According to Bl. Pope John Paul II:

"4. With the Second Vatican Council, the Comforter recently gave the Church, which according to the Fathers is the place “where the Spirit flourishes” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 749), a renewed Pentecost, instilling a new and unforeseen dynamism.

Whenever the Spirit intervenes, he leaves people astonished. He brings about events of amazing newness; he radically changes persons and history. This was the unforgettable experience of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council during which, under the guidance of the same Spirit, the Church rediscovered the charismatic dimension as one of her constitutive elements: “It is not only through the sacraments and the ministrations of the Church that the Holy Spirit makes holy the people, leads them and enriches them with his virtues. Allotting his gifts according as he wills (cf. 1 Cor 12:11), he also distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank… He makes them fit and ready to undertake various tasks and offices for the renewal and building up of the Church” (Lumen gentium, n.12).

The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential as it were to the Church’s constitution. They contribute, although differently, to the life, renewal and sanctification of God’s People. It is from this providential rediscovery of the Church’s charismatic dimension that, before and after the Council, a remarkable pattern of growth has been established for ecclesial movements and new communities." vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1998/may/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19980530_riflessioni_en.html

During the council, there was an intervention made by one of the key leaders (Cardinal Suenens) to insert something about the charisms (see Lumen gentium 12). It is crucial to understand that the cardinals and bishops, in their discussion about charisms (specifically those gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthinas 12) we responding to pure grace! This was several years before any real charismatic renewal kicked off in the Church!
 
Gregory_I said:
Many key leaders of the CCR have their origins in disobedience to the church. In 1967, Fr. Francis Macnutt, a key leader in the CCR was present at a PROTESTANT laying on of hands service where he received the “gift” of the holy spirit.

Interesting, since the Holy Spirit is not given outside the church. The last thing we need is spiritual “fulfillment” from Protestants.
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I don’t know anything about the orthodoxy of Fr. Macnutt, but I don’t see anything at all heretical about receiving more of the presence and power of God the Holy Spirit while being prayed over by Protestants.

You’re absolutely wrong when you say the Holy Spirit is not given outside the Church. Everybody baptized by a Christian with water and in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has a valid baptism and has received to some degree to the Holy Spirit. Thankfully, God the Holy Spirit doesn’t limit Himself to people who are right theologically. If that was the case, we would never have gotten anywhere. He moves with people who want to let Him move.

Remember what Lumen gentium says:
this is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”.(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.(Lumen gentium 8 vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html)
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Kyrby_Caluna said:
Pope Paul VI gave his blessings to the renewal of the charisms given by the Holy Spirit within the Catholic Church. Can anyone defend this movement for the sake of the Holy Spirit who is guiding the Church with the charisms which the Church has always possessed? I want to defend this movement as an aftermath of the ‘inspired’ Second Vatican Council. But I don’t know where to start.
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You are absolutely posting this in the wrong part of the forum. You will find that most of those who frequent the Traditional Catholicism area are very anti-charismatic movement. However, if you search this part of CAF for threads on Charismatic, you will find some valiant efforts to defend the Teaching of the Church on this point against those who deny the validity of it.

You will also get more support and advice on this topic in the non-Catholic area. That is where there are more Charismatic Catholics having dialogue with non-Catholics.
Gregory_I said:
Many key leaders of the CCR have their origins in disobedience to the church. In 1967, Fr. Francis Macnutt, a key leader in the CCR was present at a PROTESTANT laying on of hands service where he received the “gift” of the holy spirit.

Interesting, since the Holy Spirit is not given outside the church. The last thing we need is spiritual “fulfillment” from Protestants.
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Kirby, here is a good example of the anti-charismatic prejudice that abounds on the Traditional section of the forum. There is nothing disobedient about attending ecumenical prayer meetings, and it is patently false to claim that any baptized Catholic receives the “gift of the holy spirit” at such a meeting. The Church (and therefore the Charismatic elements) teach that we are sealed in the HS at baptism. Now it is a sad fact that most Catholics don’t open the gifts given to them at that time, and learn about them when they are released much later in life. Of course, there are some Catholics that don’t WANT to know about the gifts, and even in this subforum have avowed that they will never ask for them, or desire them, or investigate in any manner. 🤷

It is true, though, that the reason the HS works through these non-Catholic ecclesial communities is because of the Catholic Church. It is also true that a Catholic need not seek any spiritual fulfilllment in things Protestant. The CC has the fullness of the faith, which includes the Charisms. 👍
 
vardaquinn said:
You’re absolutely wrong when you say the Holy Spirit is not given outside the Church. Everybody baptized by a Christian with water and in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has a valid baptism and has received to some degree to the Holy Spirit. Thankfully, God the Holy Spirit doesn’t limit Himself to people who are right theologically. If that was the case, we would never have gotten anywhere. He moves with people who want to let Him move.
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The HS, as Scripture states, is given to those who obey. You are contradicting yourself in your statement. A validly baptized person IS a member of the Church. That is what valid baptism means. Protesatants validly baptized are improperly joined to the One Body, because they have unwittingly embraced heresies, or they are lacking in part of the fullness of the faith. The reason they receive the HS is because they are sealed by the HS in baptism, at the time they become members of the One Church.

I think what you are trying to say is that there are people that are members of the mystical body that are not members of the visible Body (Catholicism). This is certainly consistent with the Teaching of the Church.
Melchior said:
Also, if we accept converts without a need to re-baptize them, then obviously the Holy Spirit is outside the Church in some forms.
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Only outside the visible boundaries. Since there is only One Church, then all who belong to Christ are members of His One Body. He knows who they are.
 
guanophore said:
The HS, as Scripture states, is given to those who obey. You are contradicting yourself in your statement. A validly baptized person IS a member of the Church. That is what valid baptism means. Protesatants validly baptized are improperly joined to the One Body, because they have unwittingly embraced heresies, or they are lacking in part of the fullness of the faith. The reason they receive the HS is because they are sealed by the HS in baptism, at the time they become members of the One Church.

I think what you are trying to say is that there are people that are members of the mystical body that are not members of the visible Body (Catholicism). This is certainly consistent with the Teaching of the Church.
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Alright, sorry, worded that poorly.
 
The title of this thread implies those who are not charismatic despise or attack the Holy Spirit.
 
Not sure if this discussion has been taken elsewhere but I did want to say one thing in regards to receiving the “baptism in the holy spirit” from protestants and protestants receiving the holy spirit.

It would be incorrect to say that that non-catholics can not receive the holy spirit. Now I have of course only heard of one time of this happening but the holy spirit was given to un-baptized christians. Oooo yes yes, I can see you flustering already!

Here we go, Acts 10:44-47 Peter is preaching to some un-baptized “gentiles” who were believers in Jesus. At this time it was still believe that it was sinful for a jew to associate with a gentile. You can read the whole chapter for better context but I quoted the conclusion below where the holy spirit is given to the unbaptized and Peter sees it happen and essentially says “How can we deny gentiles the baptism with water if they have been give the holy spirit!”
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tonguesb and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
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I am not trying to be confrontational or anything, I just find it fascinating that God would give his greatest gift(John 16:7 Jesus says it is better if you have the holy spirit than Jesus himself!) to those who believed in Christ but had not yet even been baptized. I guess as a catholic this is more fascinating since we normally baptized our children as newborn babies whereas protestants wait until around the age of 12 or 13, but still it is pretty crazy. Back then a jew saw a gentile like a christian might see someone in the occult so it was really intense for them and humbled Peter(again lol, at this point he must be getting used to humility).
 
vardaquinn said:
Alright, sorry, worded that poorly.
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I didn’t mean to jump across critical, but I do think it is a critical point, especially in this subforum, where Catholics attempt to deny part of the doctrine of the faith by calling it “Protestant”.

I have found your posts to be informative, balanced, and extremely well written. I have saved a number of them to text files. 👍
 
TrueLight said:
The title of this thread implies those who are not charismatic despise or attack the Holy Spirit.
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Yes, and it also conflates two entirely different concepts. Many of those who are wholly immersed in the work of the HS vehemently deny the authenticity of the “movement”. This is a result of the abuses of charismatic gifts in Pentecostal ecclesial communities, and the notion that the “movement” entered Catholicism through Protestantism.
 
TrueLight said:
The title of this thread implies those who are not charismatic despise or attack the Holy Spirit.
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That is almost always the case. If one is not attracted to the “charismatic movement” then one does not have the HS. But we receive the HS at out baptism and receive the 7 gifts at our confirmation.
 
archangel04 said:
That is almost always the case. If one is not attracted to the “charismatic movement” then one does not have the HS. But we receive the HS at out baptism and receive the 7 gifts at our confirmation.
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Adding to that: i cant see how losing ones self-control could be included among the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit. 🤷
 
archangel04 said:
That is almost always the case. If one is not attracted to the “charismatic movement” then one does not have the HS. But we receive the HS at out baptism and receive the 7 gifts at our confirmation.
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You mean it’s sort of like how plenty traditionalists think that if one doesn’t engage in traditionalist practices, then you have no Tradition or you’re labeled a modernist?
 
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