Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

[BertBlyleven]

Is part of the charismatic movement mass-trolling traditionalists? You know exactly how traditional Catholics feel about the charismatic movement. Why are you starting posts about it in the Traditional Catholicism forum? Go pick a fight on fish eaters.

 

[Melchior_1]

Is part of the charismatic movement mass-trolling traditionalists? You know exactly how traditional Catholics feel about the charismatic movement. Why are you starting posts about it in the Traditional Catholicism forum? Go pick a fight on fish eaters.

There are people who come here who genuinely wanting to learn more about it. They come here and receive either misinformation, misdirection, or poorly formed opinions. Members of the movement should be allowed to swing by and explain/defend the movement accordingly.

It’s a bit like how if some people had a thread saying a certain pitcher who played for the Angels and Twins was not a Hall of Famer because of his lack of win totals, and some Sabermetric people showed up to explain said pitcher actually did have a Hall of Fame career.

 

[BertBlyleven]

There are people who come here who genuinely wanting to learn more about it. They come here and receive either misinformation, misdirection, or poorly formed opinions. Members of the movement should be allowed to swing by and explain/defend the movement accordingly.

It’s a bit like how if some people had a thread saying a certain pitcher who played for the Angels and Twins was not a Hall of Famer because of his lack of win totals, and some Sabermetric people showed up to explain said pitcher actually did have a Hall of Fame career.

Haha, THIS

Right, but wouldn’t said people coming to this specific forum want to know the “traditional” view of the movement, not start a thread “Defending the movement/Holy Spirit” which implicitly rebukes those who reject it? There are a million threads on here about it, both sides have bashed ad nauseum.

 

[Melchior_1]

Haha, THIS

Right, but wouldn’t said people coming to this specific forum want to know the “traditional” view of the movement, not start a thread “Defending the movement/Holy Spirit” which implicitly rebukes those who reject it? There are a million threads on here about it, both sides have bashed ad nauseum.

Perhaps. Then again, perhaps someone wants to clear the air and give the charismatic viewpoint on things, so traditionalists have additional information on the movement.

A lot of the discussions between the two sides is driven by fear, and that colours several posts here. I would certainly identify myself as a charismatic, but I also respect traditional practices and engage in several (I receive COTT, I fast on Fridays, I will soon be doing LOFH). I’ve got nothing to fear from traditionalists, and they should have nothing to fear from me.

A big part of it is the fact both can be seen as “movements”, but the reality is both have been around for a long time but have been “lost” (for lack of a better term). Charismatic practices have been around for ages, but along the way the Church became more intellectual/rational and neglected this portion. Meanwhile, traditionalist practices are making a big comeback after a few decades on the backburner. Both movements came about at the same time, during a time of societal turmoil.

Really, both sides can work in tandem to build the Body of Christ. A shame this doesn’t happen more often.

Although I’ll freely admit the thread title here is a bit confrontational.

PS: For what it’s worth, IMHO Blyleven is a for-sure Hall of Famer. And the strength of his case and how it was presented can only help another fellow who should get into the Hall - Tim Raines.

 

[rugger4christ]

A big part of it is the fact both can be seen as “movements”, but the reality is both have been around for a long time but have been “lost” (for lack of a better term). Charismatic practices have been around for ages, but along the way the Church became more intellectual/rational and neglected this portion. Meanwhile, traditionalist practices are making a big comeback after a few decades on the backburner. Both movements came about at the same time, during a time of societal turmoil.

Wow very well said.

I don’t think many catholics realize this but the tridentine mass wasn’t even instituted until 1570 AD. Its actually really new in church history. Many says that it is the original tradition of the church where really it is not, and receive communion on the tongue was never done in the beginning of the church. The church is actually trying to reform and get back to the most proper practice of receiving on the hand which is how it was done for hundreds of years.

 

[vardaquinn]

I didn’t mean to jump across critical, but I do think it is a critical point, especially in this subforum, where Catholics attempt to deny part of the doctrine of the faith by calling it “Protestant”.

I have found your posts to be informative, balanced, and extremely well written. I have saved a number of them to text files.

No, hey, if you see more of my posts that you think are worded poorly please come out and tell me. I totally agree with you. And I’m very flattered you’ve saved my posts.

@ Melchior: well said. I come from and associate with a lot of traditionalist minded people, and though I see some problems in the mentality of individuals, I am still honestly boggled why there should be a conflict in theology between the two ‘movements’.

I spend most of my time on CAF defending the charismatic movement, because I remember when I first heard about it I came here for information and found very little helpful information. I’ve spent a long time now studying it very thoroughly, and I feel that there needs to be more information put out about this very very important aspect of the faith that is very much neglected or ignored.

 

[rugger4christ]

I am still honestly boggled why there should be a conflict in theology between the two ‘movements’.

Right there with you. If it is bringing you into a more intimate relationship with Jesus Christ then you should seek it. I have heard people tell me that attending the Tridentine does this for them, and they explained why and I agreed. Though the explanation was always “Because I do not understand what is being said it causes me to focus and pay more attention in Mass”. The same person said that the people at the mass with praise and worship have the same thing happen. The music gets them more enthused about Jesus and communion. I don’t think they are mutually exclusive, and I don’t see why a charismatic can’t attend a traditional mass or why a “traditionalist” should avoid praise and worship and gifts of the holy spirit from Jesus.

 

[Warrenton]

Now it is a sad fact that most Catholics don’t open the gifts given to them at that time, and learn about them when they are released much later in life.

 

[christosdavid]

That is almost always the case. If one is not attracted to the “charismatic movement” then one does not have the HS. But we receive the HS at out baptism and receive the 7 gifts at our confirmation.

just an addition, in Acts 4 during a prayer meeting, the Apostles and early members of our faith community, already having received the Holy Spirit and gifts thereof at Pentecost, were again** filled with the Spirit**.

A lot of metaphorical language necessarily is used to describe God, after all, being omnipresent has no need to ascend, descend, move sideways or be “poured out” and “filled”.

Certainly, no one suggests the Apostles did not have an anointing which abided with them but as an answer to prayer, God determined to give “more” of his Holy Spirit to his faithful servants and friends.

Just as we should wish for more of God in our lives and a deeper relationship with God, We ought to desire more of God’s Spirit to accomplish what his will is for our lives.

Veni Sanctus Spiritus!

 

[guanophore]

That is almost always the case. If one is not attracted to the “charismatic movement” then one does not have the HS. But we receive the HS at out baptism and receive the 7 gifts at our confirmation.

I would argue that each of us receives ALL the gifts at baptism, or at least, the potentiality of them in us. At confirmation, most Latin Catholics are catechized on the 7 Isaiahn gifts, but are not taught to use the Charismatic gifts.

 

[guanophore]

Adding to that: i cant see how losing ones self-control could be included among the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Living the Pentecostal experience is certainly NOT losing one’s self control. On the contrary, one way to discern authenticity is the presence of self control. Where in the NT do you see the gifts of Pentecost causing ANYONE to LOSE SELF CONTROL!

Are you under the misapprehension that there are only 7 gifts?

1 Cor 14:31-33
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

Gal 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control;

Is part of the charismatic movement mass-trolling traditionalists?

No, but I do have to say, it is appalling how many Traditionalists reject the Teaching of the Church in this area. Traditionalists are the last place I would expect to find cafeteria Catholics.

You know exactly how traditional Catholics feel about the charismatic movement. Why are you starting posts about it in the Traditional Catholicism forum? Go pick a fight on fish eaters.

I don’t think we can assume this about the OP. Do you have evidence that the OP is insincere? I do think it is the wrong forum for the question, but that could be a mistake of inexperience.

 

[BertBlyleven]

Wow very well said.

I don’t think many catholics realize this but the tridentine mass wasn’t even instituted until 1570 AD. Its actually really new in church history. Many says that it is the original tradition of the church where really it is not, and receive communion on the tongue was never done in the beginning of the church. The church is actually trying to reform and get back to the most proper practice of receiving on the hand which is how it was done for hundreds of years.

You need to consider several things before “buying in” to that argument. First, what is now called the Tridentine Mass far precedes the Council of Trent. Second, nobody says it is the original tradition of the church. Third, you assume that what was done in the beginning of the church is absolutely correct. Many, many people, even Bishops, did not believe Christ was divine in the early church. It took over three hundred years for the Holy Ghost alone to inspire the First Ecumenical Council to convene, where (with the Second) the faith was first formally defined, and another 300-500 years to rid the Church of Arianism. Jesus did not promise or claim the Apostles/Church knew everything and were/was perfect. He did promise an advocate that would guide the Church. Any changes would be inspired by the Holy Ghost. This includes communion on the tongue. If the Holy Ghost inspired the Church to receive on the tongue, which He did, then by all means we should be receiving on the tongue. This is not a medieval invention; this affected the universal (Eastern and Western) Church from before the First Ecumenical Council.

And I digress…

 

[BertBlyleven]

EDIT almost three hundred years. That’s what I get for rewriting without proofreading.

 

[guanophore]

One has to be careful. Catholics baptize infants, and no one is qualified to say whether or to what degree the Holy Ghost operates in infants.

This is not true. The Church is fully and absolutely qualified to say what the HS does during baptism.

That the infant does not express the gifts of the Holy Ghost until later is not a “sad fact.” It is a natural consequence of the manner that we as Catholics baptize.

The sad fact is that Catholics do not learn about the gifts that were bestowed, how to unwrap them, how to use them. They don’t receive" what has already been placed within them at baptism. In the Latin Rite, at Confirmation, the individual takes responsibility for one’s own walk with God, to study, understand, and practice their faith. I have been involved in Confirmation catechesis for a dozen years, and I have seen no Catholic curricula that includes the Charismatic gifts.

I think it is not that some don't want to know about them, but that some are skeptical of these practices and don't know what is meant by the word "gift."  Is a "gift" akin to a sacrament, or more like a sacramental?  Is it a kind of prayer, like the rosary, or something different?

Well, there are some very stubborn and closed minded people that really don’t want to know… They have made up their minds they are not “Catholic” and therefore, do not belong in the Church.

But I do agree with you that many are skeptical, and with good reason! The abuses of the gifts, ever since Paul wrote to the Corinthians, certainly ought to give one pause.

The gifts of the HS are conveyed to the individual through the sacraments. I am not aware of any charismatic sacramentals. But I would say that it is, at least in part, a type of prayer like the Rosary. It might be more accurate to say it is a form of spiritual living like Benedictine or Dominican. It is a lifestyle that includes a certain variety of prayer that commends itself to certain people. Not all would be attracted to Benedictine spirituality, just as not all are attracted to Charismatic prayer. Both are valid, and build up the believer in Christ.

How?  If at all, then in a tenuous manner, surely.  When Protestants baptize, for example, they do so because Catholics baptized first, and the sacrament comes from the Church.  That part, I understand.  But on the individual level, is not the Holy Spirit responding to the call for grace on the part of the baptized, or the person's parents?  One would think that it is basically the same thing as what happens when a Protestant prays:  God hears the prayer, because the person still comes to the Father through the Son.

Yes, I think it is basically the same. Protestants read the Catholic Book of the NT, and in faith believe that what is written there is available to them. They approach God in faith, desiring all that He has for them. They receive it because they ask with expectant faith.

 

[guanophore]

You need to consider several things before “buying in” to that argument. First, what is now called the Tridentine Mass far precedes the Council of Trent. Second, nobody says it is the original tradition of the church. Third, you assume that what was done in the beginning of the church is absolutely correct. Many, many people, even Bishops, did not believe Christ was divine in the early church. It took over three hundred years for the Holy Ghost alone to inspire the First Ecumenical Council to convene, where (with the Second) the faith was first formally defined, and another 300-500 years to rid the Church of Arianism. Jesus did not promise or claim the Apostles/Church knew everything and were/was perfect. He did promise an advocate that would guide the Church. Any changes would be inspired by the Holy Ghost. This includes communion on the tongue. If the Holy Ghost inspired the Church to receive on the tongue, which He did, then by all means we should be receiving on the tongue. This is not a medieval invention; this affected the universal (Eastern and Western) Church from before the First Ecumenical Council.

And I digress…

I think you are mixing apples and oranges in this barrel. The Divine Deposit of Faith was delivered “once for all” to the Church. Public revelation was closed at the death of the last Apostle. The teaching of the Church was whole and entire from that time. Yes, doctrine had to be developed (such as the hypostatic union), but this did not represent a “change”. It is an explanation and broadening of the concept that existed from the beginning. You are right, these proclamations, dogmas, and doctrinal developments do occur because there are heresies that need to be addressed. Disciplines of the Church, such as how communion will be served, are not the same as Doctrines (Apostolic Teachings). Although they are based upon them, they can (and do ) change over time.

 

[Fink]

Living the Pentecostal experience is certainly NOT losing one’s self control. On the contrary, one way to discern authenticity is the presence of self control. Where in the NT do you see the gifts of Pentecost causing ANYONE to LOSE SELF CONTROL!

Nowhere; and that`s the point.

Are you under the misapprehension that there are only 7 gifts?

The seven gifts are specifically mentioned:
Wisdom
Understanding
Counsel
Knowledge
Fortitude
Piety
Fear of The Lord

Loss of self-control, as sometimes happens at Charismatic gatherings, isn`t mentioned.

1 Cor 14:31-33
…For*** God is not a God of confusion ***but of peace.

Dead right; but, that`s not always the case with the CCR.

Gal 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control;

Self-control is sometimes lacking.

I do have to say, it is appalling how many Traditionalists reject the Teaching of the Church in this area. Traditionalists are the last place I would expect to find cafeteria Catholics.

This was brought up on another thread (Thoughts on Charismatic Renewal); and was explained very well, using some extra background.

Speaking of rejecting the teaching of the Church: we can “thank” the Charismatic movement for promoting the “apparitions” at Medjugorje, against the directives of two bishops.
Most of the disobedient Franciscans over there are/were Charismatics.

 

[Warrenton]

This is not true. The Church is fully and absolutely qualified to say what the HS does during baptism.

 

[rugger4christ]

guanophore:

Are you under the misapprehension that there are only 7 gifts?

The seven gifts are specifically mentioned:
Wisdom
Understanding
Counsel
Knowledge
Fortitude
Piety
Fear of The Lord

I don’t understand this post. I know you are not ignorant of the charismatic gifts that St. Paul speaks explicitly of in 1 Corinthians 12-14 so why are you ignoring them?

Fink:

Loss of self-control, as sometimes happens at Charismatic gatherings, isn`t mentioned.

Can you give an example of what you mean by Loss of self-control as you may have a point. If you are speaking of when people “rest in the spirit” when being prayed over this only happens if they are open to it. Usually the sign that they are open is that they have asked to be prayed with, but even with people who are used to resting in the spirit, receiving the gift of laughter, or of tears, if they are not open to it at a certain time it simply won’t happen. The holy spirit only walks through an open door which he has been invited into, he fully respects our free will. Now I have seen people lose control at some charismatic events(usually protestant events) where there has not been a prayer to take authority or a prayer of protection said and when people lose control it is NOT of God. It is not God’s doing, and it is not the charismatic catholic’s doing. Now at our meetings we always pray a prayer to take authority, beginning with saying “In the name of Jesus I take Authority…” proceeding to ask for Mary’s intercession and of St. Michael and all of our guardian angels, and ending with a hail mary. We have never had a manifestation of loss of self-control or anything else as long as we pray this prayer.

Fink:

guanophore:

1 Cor 14:31-33
…For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

Dead right; but, that`s not always the case with the CCR.

True! You are right. There are people who come to CCR meetings and are confused, feel uneasy or uncomfortable, and out of place. But, this is not God’s fault this is our fault. Its the leader of the meetings fault, and it is the fault of whoever invited the person without giving them understanding. It is our job to properly educate people on what is happening so that people are not left confused, and if they are confused then we have failed. Praise God that the CCR is finally getting better at this, although its usually better in catholic communities such at the T.O.R. franciscans, C.F.R.s or lay covenant communities.

Fink:

guanophore:

Gal 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control;

Self-control is sometimes lacking.

And it isn’t the only thing, but the fruit of the spirit is not a gift its a fruit that manifests through receiving the great gift of God’s spirit. Fruits of the spirit missing in people’s lives are because they are not seeking God in prayer enough, and not being open to him. If this is found at a CCR meeting it is for that reason, but that can be said for any type of meeting from any type of movement. You will however find much more fruit at these meetings such as love, joy, peace, patience, kindess, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control, but not always as is human imperfection. This almost reminds me of defending the catholic church to protestants(not that I am saying that about you) in that there are ALWAYS legitimate things that have gone wrong in the catholic church that get attacked, and our defense must always be God is perfect in his church but we are not perfect and we are his church, thus his church makes mistakes. God is perfect in the CCR, but we make mistakes. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Jesus said it would be greater if we had his spirit then if we had him stay here with us. Can you say in your life right now this is the case? That his spirit is so real and complete in your life that it would not be worth Jesus coming back to guide you in person if you were to lose that spirit in the process? I find this in my life, what would we do without his spirit!

Fink:

guanophore:

I do have to say, it is appalling how many Traditionalists reject the Teaching of the Church in this area. Traditionalists are the last place I would expect to find cafeteria Catholics.

This was brought up on another thread (Thoughts on Charismatic Renewal); and was explained very well, using some extra background.

Question: do you believe that anything that happens charismatic is even a little bit God or is it completely make believe or demonic? If there is even anything that is God in it and you choose to reject it then you are rejecting God. Just like in a marriage there are things we like and don’t like about our spouse, but we must learn to accept, embrace, and love everything in that person.

 

[guanophore]

Nowhere; and that`s the point.

The point I am taking from this is that you seem to believe that walking by the Spirit of Pentecost equates to losing self control. I am confused about where you are getting such a concept, since it is not a teaching of the Church, and could be considered an heretical or schismatic attitude. Are you speaking from personal experience, then?

The seven gifts are specifically mentioned:
Wisdom
Understanding
Counsel
Knowledge
Fortitude
Piety
Fear of The Lord

Perhaps you did not understand my question, so I will ask it again. Are you under the misapprehension that there are only seven gifts? I will offer a passage that may help you consider your answer.

1 Cor 12:4-11

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Loss of self-control, as sometimes happens at Charismatic gatherings, isn`t mentioned.

Do you also believe that, because liturgical abuses occur, we should stop celebrating the Eucharist?

Dead right; but, that`s not always the case with the CCR.

The renewal itself, being an action of the Holy Spirit, is always orderly. However I will concede quickly that there are many instances in which members of prayer meetings act inappropriately. This is evident in the Scriptures, and in some prayer meetings today.

Self-control is sometimes lacking.

Yes, just as proper reverence from the Eucharist is sometimes lacking in the Mass. This does not invalidate the Gift.

Speaking of rejecting the teaching of the Church: we can “thank” the Charismatic movement for promoting the “apparitions” at Medjugorje, against the directives of two bishops. Most of the disobedient Franciscans over there are/were Charismatics.

You could, but you would be inappropriately placing blame. Like any action of the Holy Spirit, movements of this kind are infallible. The Spirit moved inspired Catholics to pen the New Testament. As they did so, many other non-inspired writers also disseminated literature that was contradictory to the Teachings of the Apostles.

The presence of disobedient persons does not invalidate the Truth. That is like saying that, because Judas betrayed Christ, obviously His Teachings are of no value.

Problematic logic.

 

[guanophore]

The Church can teach about the "economy" of baptism - how it works on infants as a whole.  I meant that the Church cannot speak to the specific effect on any given individual, since by definition, an infant cannot communicate his or her experience of the faith.  This is in the same manner that the Church cannot speak to the specific experiences of the dead - these things are known only to God.

Ok, but the Church is authorized to speak about those things which have been revealed to her, and God has revealed that everyone has gifts, and that these are inspired by the HS by whom we are sealed in baptism.

 It is not possible to have something placed within one, but not receive it.  I do not understand what you are writing.

I had a relative write me a check the other day. She insisted that I take money from her to complete a project I am doing. I do not want to take money from her because I know it will cause complications. The check is sitting there on the table. I have some options. I decided not to argue with her to take the check with her when she left the house. I can send the check by mail back to her. I can shred the check. I can put the check in the drawer until it becomes too old to cash ((I have done this before). I can cash the check, then not spend the money.

In the same way, the HS is infused into the believer at Baptism, present with all the gifts that are intended for our use. A person may not “receive” what has been acquired, may not open the gifts, may not learn to use them for their intended purpose.

Again, I don't think it is that.  Charismatic activity was virtually unknown in the Church.

The fact that you do not know about it does not mean it did not exist. While I will concede that it was not commonplace, clearly the writings of the saints and the history of the Church make it plain that these gifts have always resided in the Church.

Put it this way - it is less known than flying, and flying is pretty rare, at least without a plane ticket.

Perhaps you are in need of some historical reading?

I understand what you are saying, and think you have hit on what is probably a rift between traditional Catholics (and I am not meaning to exclude Charismatic Catholics from the category-I am using the terms for convenience only).

Why would having a different spiritual practice cause a “rift” between faithful Catholics? Do Dominicans think that Benedictines are “deficient catholics”?

I expect that this is correct. However, it raises serious problems with the Catholic concept of salvation and necessity of unity.

I don’t think so. The Catechism explains these concepts clearly.

For example, under this view, it is impossible to justify the requirement of formal membership in the Church, because it is unthinkable that the Holy Ghost would descend on a Protestant, provoke or prompt a mystical experience, and abandon the person to Hell.

I am confused about this. Where in Catholic Teaching is it ever forwarded that a person who is called and gifted still not end up in hell?

Accordingly, some traditional Catholics therefore conclude that the Charismatic theory must be incorrect.

Yes, I can follow that. I can see that their perception is incorrect. Anyway, there is no such thing as a “Charismatic theory”, so that in itself is a vain imagination.

I do not undertake to resolve these questions, and I am not certain that the OP is asking me to try.  I am simply saying that although some traditional Catholics disfavor Charismatic activity, they have reasons that are grounded in Catholic practice and teaching.

Or at least, their misperceptions of Catholic teaching.

I believe that is called the gift of discernment.

That is a gift I have never unlocked!

I am glad that you are getting my point about those gifts.