Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

[vardaquinn]

Except that we weren’t baptized into John’s baptism.

What bothers me about the charismatic movement is that it seems to suggest that millions of Catholics did not really receive the Holy spirit or as you said somewhere else, they were not taught how to “unwrap” it.

So Guanaphore, we do receive the Holy Spirit, but that doesn’t mean it has to be in the form of speaking in tongues or dancing in the spirit or in any other pentecostal expression.

It suggests rather that millions of Catholics are absolutely ignorant of the charismatic dimension of their own faith, and thus are not opening themselves up to what they don’t even know exists. And unfortunately, millions of ‘Catholics’ aren’t living anything like a life centered on the Holy Spirit or on God at all. You know that your average Catholic stops going to church after confirmation? They’ve still received the Holy Spirit, certainly. Sacrament was effective in conferring the sacramental graces. But they aren’t doing anything about it. They haven’t really experienced their own Pentecost.

It doesn’t have to be expressed in tongues or say prophecy, but according to history, at least earlier on that was the norm. And I don’t see why it shouldn’t be a norm, and many reasons why it should be.

Why don’t you want the gift of tongues?

 

[guanophore]

I'm having trouble expressing what I am thinking.  What I am getting at is the concept of necessity:  if a non-Catholic receives the Holy Ghost, then it follows that the person can be saved.  If the non-Catholic can be saved, then a person does not need to be Catholic in order to be saved.  If this is the case, then being Catholic is not "necessary" stricltly speaking.

Such a concept is contrary to the Teaching of the Church, but I see your point.

This is distinct from the obligation of the Church to teach. I mean, it could be possible for a non-Catholic to be saved, and it could be possible for the Church to have an obligation to teach, right?

The Church has a special obligation toward those who have been validly baptized, yet are outside the fullness of the faith.

I brought it up only to suggest a line departure with traditional Catholics and Charismatic Catholics.

People who think that salvation is possible outside the Church have departed from the One Faith. I don’t doubt that there are some Catholics of Charismatic inclination that either don’t understand, or may not accept this doctrine of the faith. This personal failure or deficiency on their part, however, is not a reflection on the movement of the Holy Spirit.

 

[vardaquinn]

I’m interested to see any historical evidence for the method of worship used by the Charismatic Renewal. I think it would help calm a lot of people down who are opposed to it. Like is there artwork depicting people convulsing during a Church service because they were fille with the holy spirit somewhere in ancient texts or in any Catholic literature regarding the Mass before 1967? Have any of the Popes worshipped in this method at all in the history of the Catholic Church?

Well, St. Ignatius of Loyola was hauled in for questioning because people listening to his preaching were being slain in the spirit and rolling around on the ground. And a gigantic number of saints were all “slain in the spirit”. But that’s not really what charismatic worship is, simply something commonly associated with it that often happens.

There is a lot of evidence from the writings of the church fathers and others that suggests that what normally occurred at confirmation was that the confirmandi would speak in tongues and prophesy. Not to mention like… all the early Christians, the Apostles, and the Blessed Mother… (see Acts 2).

I am sure many popes have… but be more specific by what you mean as “charismatic worship”.

 

[guanophore]

After Vatican 2, however, I am not certain it really matters. If we agree that things, including rites and sacraments, can be consciously changed, then there is not much basis to forbid new rituals or practices, provided they are not heretical.

Do you think that the Church does not have the authority to change Rites?

What Sacraments were changed after Vatican 2?

I believe that the best course is for the magesterium is to permit charismatic action.  This should be coupled with assurances to traditional Catholics that their ability to worship under the old forms will be respected.

I am puzzled by this, as there seems to be no dichotomy for me between “old forms” of worship and the charismatic experience. I was surprised to find myself being called a “rad trad” on CAF. I never thought of myself as a “radical traditionalist”, but I do realize that the more I grow in the history of my faith, the more “rad trad” I have become.

 

[TrueLight]

There is a lot of evidence from the writings of the church fathers and others that suggests that what normally occurred at confirmation was that the confirmandi would speak in tongues and prophesy.

Hi,

Do you have one reference you can link to?

 

[guanophore]

I’m still not sure what you mean by this? Can you go a little more into this?

The Apostles taught that everyone is given gifts of the Holy Spirit that are intended for the buildign up of the Church. Many Catholics are not taught how to identify which gifts they were given, nor are they instructed on how to use them.

1 Cor 12:4-11
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Not everyone manifests each gift, though the potentiality is placed in the believer in baptism, because they are reflections of of the One Spirit in which we are sealed.

 

[Warrenton]

Do you think that the Church does not have the authority to change Rites?

 

[guanophore]

Hi,

Do you have one reference you can link to?

Post 54 contains several quotes from Fathers and Doctors of the Church. You can search them here.

 

[TrueLight]

Post 54 contains several quotes from Fathers and Doctors of the Church. You can search them here.

Thanks for patiently and charitably pointing that out.

 

[guanophore]

Thanks for patiently and charitably pointing that out.

I am gratified for your openness. There have been times on the Traditional Forum where members refused to even look at the writings.

 

[TrueLight]

I am gratified for your openness. There have been times on the Traditional Forum where members refused to even look at the writings.

Well, in all fairness this is not new to me. I grew up among Baptists and Pentecostals. I have always had reservations about these charismatic manifestations, but I understand them. I am trying to understand their place in Catholicism.

Coming from that background, I also understand and encourage being “on fire” for God, going and spreading the word and worshiping God with your all. I think Catholics can use more of that.

But again I don’t understand the role of speaking in tongues outside of Protestantism and maybe that is because I attend the traditional Latin mass.

I did look at some of the quote and especially the one by Justin Martyr. I will look into it further.

Thanks.

 

[Simpleton]

What “method of worship” are you talking about?

All the Charismatic Catholics I know worship at the Mass.

Maybe that’s the problem you don’t know all of the charismatics.

I guess you are being facetious?

I’m guessing you’re being judgmental?

What makes you think that people convulse when they are filled with the HS? Do you think this is what happened in the Upper Room?

I don’t know what happened in the upper room beyond what was written…if you know anything more than what was written could you share your sources.

Have you ever observed this during Baptism or when converts are received into the Church through RCIA?

No I haven’t observed this as being the main stream thing amongst Catholics which is why I’m asking where did it come from?

Perhaps you are confused, and think that “convulsing” is a method of worship?

Perhaps the people convulsing are confused?

I think it is clear from the Scriptures that these “convulsions” have another origin, don’t you?

So you agree that they are normal things during CCR services? Or you claim they are the work of the HS? Or are you saying the people who do the convulsing are doing so because of the devil?

I don’t think it was out of line for me to ask for historical evidence or literature that states that these types of church services have been common place in catholic history. All I have gotten so far is the typical “charismatic gifts are biblical, and the early Christians talked about them” argument which wasn’t relevant to my question since I didn’t ask if they werelegitimate gifts according to scripture or early Christians but rather where they ever used or displayed in the same manner as the above links demonstrate them being used? Where is the historical evidence that priests and laymen were doing this stuff before the CCR existed? Why in the history of the Church have Catholics not seen a Pope place a cross on another person’s forehead and watch them drop to the floor? Why do all of these gifts seem to always happen in large amounts in the CCR but not in any other part of the Catholic faith?

 

[mlz]

“You’re absolutely wrong when you say the Holy Spirit is not given outside the Church. Everybody baptized by a Christian with water and in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has a valid baptism and has received to some degree to the Holy Spirit. Thankfully, God the Holy Spirit doesn’t limit Himself to people who are right theologically. If that was the case, we would never have gotten anywhere. He moves with people who want to let Him move.”

My email:

AMEN! I can only say that from experience, this is true. Do not limit the working of His Holy Spirit. He died for ALL, so don’t be surprised when the Holy Spirit moves outside of the Church! (could this be pride?) I am a product of His working outside the Church, and after many years drawing me TO His Church. Who makes you the judge of how His Spirit can move? He is all powerful and awesome. I bow to our Lord and thank Him for His many blessings. The baptism of His Holy Spirit is REAL. (note, baptism is a small ‘b’) It is simply an annointing of the Holy Spirit already recieved in Baptism.

Blessings to you,
mlz

 

[guanophore]

“You’re absolutely wrong when you say the Holy Spirit is not given outside the Church. Everybody baptized by a Christian with water and in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has a valid baptism and has received to some degree to the Holy Spirit. Thankfully, God the Holy Spirit doesn’t limit Himself to people who are right theologically. If that was the case, we would never have gotten anywhere. He moves with people who want to let Him move.”

My email:

AMEN! I can only say that from experience, this is true. Do not limit the working of His Holy Spirit. He died for ALL, so don’t be surprised when the Holy Spirit moves outside of the Church! (could this be pride?) I am a product of His working outside the Church, and after many years drawing me TO His Church. Who makes you the judge of how His Spirit can move? He is all powerful and awesome. I bow to our Lord and thank Him for His many blessings. The baptism of His Holy Spirit is REAL. (note, baptism is a small ‘b’) It is simply an annointing of the Holy Spirit already recieved in Baptism.

Blessings to you,
mlz

Yes, Christ died for all, and he saves the ungodly, which are found outside the Church. Yes, the HS does work outside the Church, but only for the purpose of bringing people INTO the Church!

It is not “pride”. Jesus only founded ONE CHURCH, and He has only ONE BODY, and ONE FLOCK.

This needs to be stressed, because there is an erroneous idea floating around that people who receive the gifts of the HS outside the visible boundaries of the Church are just as well, or better off than those who are fully united with the Truth, and this is not the case.

 

[mlz]

Yes, Christ died for all, and he saves the ungodly, which are found outside the Church. Yes, the HS does work outside the Church, but only for the purpose of bringing people INTO the Church!

It is not “pride”. Jesus only founded ONE CHURCH, and He has only ONE BODY, and ONE FLOCK.

This needs to be stressed, because there is an erroneous idea floating around that people who receive the gifts of the HS outside the visible boundaries of the Church are just as well, or better off than those who are fully united with the Truth, and this is not the case.

Just so you know, there are “ungodly” in the Church as well as out of the Church as well as “Godly” outside of the Church as well as in the Church. You may not agree, but I believe this to be true. Those baptised in the Triune God ( in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) can become “Godly” though you may not acknowledge this as well as those that choose not to follow the Lord although baptised in the Catholic Church. Please never limit His power to move where He wills. Remember that it is clearly taught that those outside the Church can recieve salvation although they never came into the Church. Of course He wants One Unified Church, of course, but do you think the Creator of ALL cannot move as HE WILLS outside what He established…HE IS CAPABLE OF ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING> I have no doubt in this. I have been called to come to the Catholic faith, but you will never convince me that there are NOT people that know Him outside the Catholic faith, never. I was a true believer outside the Catholic faith. It is arrogant to think otherwise… please show some humility, love and grace to your brothers and sisters outside the Catholic faith!

Your sister in Christ,
mlz

 

[Jkimbo]

What did our Church Fathers say about any of this? How many Saints spoke in tongues? I won’t pretend to know much on this but it seems to me this is all relatively new, like in the last 100 years?

 

[guanophore]

Have any of the Popes worshipped in this method at all in the history of the Catholic Church?

It was the prayers of the Holy Father that started the Renewal.

You can also read the history on this page. The outpouring began on the very day the Pope prayed for it.

 

[guanophore]

Just so you know, there are “ungodly” in the Church as well as out of the Church as well as “Godly” outside of the Church as well as in the Church. You may not agree, but I believe this to be true.

You will get no arguement from me on this point! I would say, though, that baptized Catholics who are behaving in an ungodly manner have separated themselves from the Church through sin, and are in need of reconciliation.

Those baptised in the Triune God ( in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) can become “Godly” though you may not acknowledge this as well as those that choose not to follow the Lord although baptised in the Catholic Church.

I am not sure I am following you here. I do agree that there are many godly Protestants, and would go so far as to say there are godly persons who don’t know the Lord personally. Only He knows those that are His.

Please never limit His power to move where He wills. Remember that it is clearly taught that those outside the Church can recieve salvation although they never came into the Church.

No, this is NOT taught, and has NEVER been taught, and is a falsehood.

There is only ONE CHURCH, outside of which THERE IS NO SALVATION. There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved, and all who belong to Christ are members of His One Body, the Church.

Of course He wants One Unified Church, of course, but do you think the Creator of ALL cannot move as HE WILLS outside what He established…HE IS CAPABLE OF ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING> I have no doubt in this.

God can do whatever He wants, however He likes. He has chosen to save through His Church, outside of which, there is no salvation.

I have been called to come to the Catholic faith, but you will never convince me that there are NOT people that know Him outside the Catholic faith, never.

There are many faithful disciples of Christ that are beyond the boundaries of the visible Catholic Church.

I was a true believer outside the Catholic faith. It is arrogant to think otherwise… please show some humility, love and grace to your brothers and sisters outside the Catholic faith!

I think you misunderstand me.

 

[guanophore]

What did our Church Fathers say about any of this? How many Saints spoke in tongues? I won’t pretend to know much on this but it seems to me this is all relatively new, like in the last 100 years?

You have a good eye Jkimbo. If you read the links I posted above, you will see that the Holy Father’s prayer occurred just at that time.

 

[Simpleton]

It was the prayers of the Holy Father that started the Renewal.

You can also read the history on this page. The outpouring began on the very day the Pope prayed for it.

Okay so your answer to my question simply stated is “no” there is absolutely no literature or historical documentation that illustrates the same type of services showed in the above links as happening or as being common place in Catholic history, and that these “outpourings” haven’t happened anywhere else in the other Catholic movements other than the CCR within the last oh 60-100 years.

No one finds it odd that these “outpourings” only happen at these energy charged CCR masses and not during the other Ordinary Form Masses, Extraordinary Form Masses, or during Divine Liturgies taking place all around the world? I guess the Holy Spirit doesnt give an outpouring on the whole Church but only to the CCR services?