Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

[guanophore]

Okay so your answer to my question simply stated is “no” there is absolutely no literature or historical documentation that illustrates the same type of services showed in the above links as happening or as being common place in Catholic history, and that these “outpourings” haven’t happened anywhere else in the other Catholic movements other than the CCR within the last oh 60-100 years.

I am not aware of any, but my study of history is by no means complete.

  No one finds it odd that these “outpourings” only happen at these energy charged CCR masses and not during the other Ordinary Form Masses, Extraordinary Form Masses, or during Divine Liturgies taking place all around the world? I guess the Holy Spirit doesnt give an outpouring on the whole Church but only to the CCR services? :shrug:

He just moves differently, according to the expectations of those in attendance. I used to attend Mass at a Latin parish where altar servers would regularly fall down during the consecration. The Parish was very puzzled about it, and urged all who were serving to have something to eat in the morning at least one hour prior to Mass, so that they would not suffer low blood sugar.

The Spirit comes where He is invited. It was not for nothing that the disciples prayed unceasingly for nine days in the upper room. Of course the Spirit is fully present in the Sacraments, but what one receives depends upon ones disposition toward the Sacrament. I had already started fraternizing with Pentecostal Protestants when I was in formation for Confirmation. Since I believed what I read in the NT, I received the gift of tongues when the Bishop layed hands on me. No one else in my class did. They did not believe it was possible.

Luke 11:8-13
9 And I tell you, Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12 or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

 

[Warrenton]

It is not “pride”. Jesus only founded ONE CHURCH, and He has only ONE BODY, and ONE FLOCK.
This needs to be stressed, because there is an erroneous idea floating around that people who receive the gifts of the HS outside the visible boundaries of the Church are just as well, or better off than those who are fully united with the Truth, and this is not the case.

Just a note on what we were discussing before: we have to be careful with this. As Catholics, we know that Christ founded one church, not many.

We also know that people are free to leave the Church. They have to be, for freedom to be meaningful.

Now, if Protestants or other people who are not members of the Catholic Church can receive an (name removed by moderator)ouring of the Holy Ghost, by necessity this calls into question the “need” to be Catholic.

There are only a couple of ways around this issue - one, is to posit that Protestants are actually Catholics but they don’t realize it. That strikes me as trying to define one’s way out of a problem. It also does some violence to the notion of freedom - if a Protestant does not want to be a Catholic, but still can receive the Holy Ghost,and we insist on calling him a definitional Catholic, then what of free will?

The other way, which is how I deal with the matter, is consign it to the realm of mystery. The manner and reasons that the Holy Ghost descends to non Catholics is a function of perfect mercy. What happens to them at the jugment is a function of perfect justice. By her constitution, the Church must err on the side mercy, because that is what the Lord bid her to do. I admit readily that this intellectual suspension is less than satisfactory to the inquiring mind.

Anyhow, that is why I think some traditional Catholics have problems with the Charismatic gifts, although they don’t always put it in those terms.

 

[Simpleton]

He just moves differently, according to the expectations of those in attendance. I used to attend Mass at a Latin parish where altar servers would regularly fall down during the consecration. The Parish was very puzzled about it, and urged all who were serving to have something to eat in the morning at least one hour prior to Mass, so that they would not suffer low blood sugar.

When I was an altar server this happened to my brother and I. I believe the culprit was empty stomachs and a heavy dose of incense…a big load for 7 year old.

The Spirit comes where He is invited. It was not for nothing that the disciples prayed unceasingly for nine days in the upper room. Of course the Spirit is fully present in the Sacraments, but what one receives depends upon ones disposition toward the Sacrament.

I agree, however I just find it odd that with all of the other liturgies happening outside of the CCR no one has started speaking in tongues. I think it would be unwise to assume that these gifts are not welcomed by the faithful at the other liturgies except the CCR ones.

I had already started fraternizing with Pentecostal Protestants when I was in formation for Confirmation. Since I believed what I read in the NT, I received the gift of tongues when the Bishop layed hands on me. No one else in my class did. They did not believe it was possible.

Whether or not your gift of tongues is genuine is not on trial nor am I going to pass judgment on it. Gifts do not denote holiness and they can be misused which I think are two things people do not understand or ignore. Heck I’m not even against the message of a charismatic renewal, but rather cautious of the methods and practices the CCR is employing.

 

[guanophore]

Now, if Protestants or other people who are not members of the Catholic Church can receive an (name removed by moderator)ouring of the Holy Ghost, by necessity this calls into question the “need” to be Catholic.

I dont’ see how?

The HS is not restricted by the visible boundaries of the Church. If the HS could not receive and outpouring when they are “outside the camp”, how would they ever get into the camp?

Num 11:26-30

26 Now two men remained in the camp, one named Eldad, and the other named Medad, and the spirit rested upon them; they were among those registered, but they had not gone out to the tent, and so they prophesied in the camp. 27 And a young man ran and told Moses, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.” 28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the minister of Moses, one of his chosen men, said, “My lord Moses, forbid them.” 29 But Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the LORD’s people were prophets, that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!” 30 And Moses and the elders of Israel returned to the camp.

Only God knows those who are His, whether they are visible to us as belonging to Him, or not.

God poured out the Spirit on Gentiles to demonstrate to Peter that the HS was not confined to the Jews:

Acts 10:44-48

44 While Peter was still saying this, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 “Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

The proper response to this outpouring is cited here - they submitted themselves to the Apostolic Teaching. This is what the HS calls everyone to do. The fullness of this Teaching is found in the Catholic Church.

There are only a couple of ways around this issue - one, is to posit that Protestants are actually Catholics but they don’t realize it.

This is what the Catechism TEaches.

That strikes me as trying to define one’s way out of a problem.

I agree. It became a problem at the Reformation, when people were able to become Christians without identifying as Catholic. The Church recognizes their baptism as valid, and therefore, they are joined (improperly) to the One Body.

It also does some violence to the notion of freedom - if a Protestant does not want to be a Catholic, but still can receive the Holy Ghost,and we insist on calling him a definitional Catholic, then what of free will?

If a person is born in the US, they automatically become a US citizen. They may not wish this, and neither may their parents, but it does not change the facts. The person can willfully give up their citizenship, or decide it does not matter to them, and decide to live out of accordance with it. None of us asked to be born, so where is our free will?

The other way, which is how I deal with the matter, is consign it to the realm of mystery.  The manner and reasons that the Holy Ghost descends to non Catholics is a function of perfect mercy.  What happens to them at the jugment is a function of perfect justice.  By her constitution, the Church must err on the side mercy, because that is what the Lord bid her to do.  I admit readily that this intellectual suspension is less than satisfactory to the inquiring mind.

But I think it is a good one.

The Catechism states that these outpourings happen so that the HS can draw these people to Himself, and therefore, into the One Fold of Christ.

 Anyhow, that is why I think some traditional Catholics have problems with the Charismatic gifts, although they don't always put it in those terms.

I think they don’t read their catechism.

 

[guanophore]

When I was an altar server this happened to my brother and I. I believe the culprit was empty stomachs and a heavy dose of incense…a big load for 7 year old.

Yes, I think there are certainly mundane causes. But one should not rule out that the presence of Jesus is so strong that the human falls to the ground. There are several examples of this in Scripture.

I agree, however I just find it odd that with all of the other liturgies happening outside of the CCR no one has started speaking in tongues. I think it would be unwise to assume that these gifts are not welcomed by the faithful at the other liturgies except the CCR ones.

I have spoken to many Catholics (and one non-Catholics) who have heard them in their mind but were afraid to give voice to them. In any case, such ecstatic utterances are not appropriate during Divine Liturgy. The gifts are given for the building up of the Body, and the work of the ministry. They are not for function during the Divine Liturgy, which has a different purpose. They are to be exercised outside of this venue. Of course you know my position is that all the faithful have access to all the gifts by virtue of baptism. I also believe that many faithful Catholics attend Liturgy with open hearts to receive all that the Lord has for them.

Whether or not your gift of tongues is genuine is not on trial nor am I going to pass judgment on it.

I was not asking for you to do so. I am content with the evaluation of my bishop, thanks.

My point was that people get from the grace of God what they expect. One must be properly disposed, and have expectant faith. Of course the Sacraments are operative regardless, but one cannot, for example, cathect the gifts of the Spirit unless one is willing and takes steps to do so.
Simpleton;8326024:

Gifts do not denote holiness and they can be misused which I think are two things people do not understand or ignore.

Yes, I agree. I think this is the main reason they have fallen into disuse.

Heck I'm not even against the message of a charismatic renewal, but rather cautious of the methods and practices the CCR is employing.

Rightfully so.

1 John 4:1-4
:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.

 

[vardaquinn]

@ Simpleton: speaking in tongues at Mass would not be permitted and would be a liturgical abuse, unless there is proper permission from the Bishop to do this. There are several charismatic parishes or places like Stuebenville that have this permission. So I really wouldn’t expect or want to hear anyone speaking in tongues outside of a Mass with specific approval for the charismatic elements.

@ Warrenton: That’s a good point, with why traditionalists might have problems with the charismatic gifts.

 

[vardaquinn]

Hi,

Do you have one reference you can link to?

Hmm, not one good solid one. I’d suggest this book: amazon.com/Christian-Initiation-Baptism-Holy-Spirit/dp/0814650090/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315161293&sr=8-1 Which has a lot of good info… though, to be honest, I’ve found some of the stuff they say in there a bit confusing. But they do examine a lot of what the Church fathers say and look at historical records from ancient rites of Christian initiation.

I’ve mostly just compiled a lot of stuff I’ve either found on my own, or seen quoted in books and articles about the charismatic gifts.

“For the prophetical gifts remain with us [Christians], even to the present time. And hence you [Jews] ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us” (Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 82 [A.D. 155]).

St. Thomas Aquinas apparently has a lot of writing on the charisms, at least in the ST. I’ve yet to get my hands on it, though.

 

[Denise1957]

It was the prayers of the Holy Father that started the Renewal.

You can also read the history on this page. The outpouring began on the very day the Pope prayed for it.

You mention that it was the prayers of the Holy Father that started the renewal. However, I can’t find the novena that Pope Leo Xlll wanted to have said in Catholic churches before Whit Sunday every year. This is the prayer to which you - or the article, rather - is referring, right? The article also states that this prayer (novena) says to…“pray for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.” I’d like to see if the Pope’s novena actually says this, or if the author is making it up.

Also, the author of the above article states that…“In the last 100 years one of the most obvious and the most important developments for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in modern times came when Pope Leo Xlll published Divinum Illud Manus, and encyclical on the Holy Spirit. He labored the fact that the Holy Spirit was so little known and appreciated.”

Well, I’ve read through the encyclical, and can’t find where it says any such thing (that the Holy Father labored the fact that the Holy Spirit was so little known and appreciated). Maybe I’ve missed it. Maybe you can read through it and let me know if the Holy Father actually said this; here’s a link to the encyclical:

vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_09051897_divinum-illud-munus_en.html

Also, the article you linked to mentioned that the Pope wrote the novena because of the encouragement of Bl. Elena Guerra. However, I can’t find any information about Bl. Elena Guerra which states that she practiced the extraordinary gifts, such as speaking in tongues and prophesying. That she was devoted to the Holy Spirit is commendable, of course. But I can’t find anywhere that she believed in or practiced anything other than what the Church has traditionally taught regarding devotion to the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.

 

[AntiqueCatholic]

I think Charismatics are being presumptous. Remove the word ‘Holy Spirit’ from their statements and substitute the word “God”. Then they read like this: “God came upon me”, “It was the power of God that caused me to speak in tongues”, “God caused him to swoon” etc. Or in the title of this thread “Defending God, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Movement”. See how odd it looks now?

How can we know if it’s the Holy Spirit at work? By the fruits, I guess. What are they? To traditionalist Catholics, we just see fainting, lively prayer sessions, Tent Revivalism, babbling and resports of feelings and sensations. This is weak stuff compared to what the Apostles did or someone like St Padre Pio.

 

[elizabeth_anne_1]

I think Charismatics are being presumptous. Remove the word ‘Holy Spirit’ from their statements and substitute the word “God”. Then they read like this: “God came upon me”, “It was the power of God that caused me to speak in tongues”, “God caused him to swoon” etc. Or in the title of this thread “Defending God, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Movement”. See how odd it looks now?

How can we know if it’s the Holy Spirit at work? By the fruits, I guess. What are they? To traditionalist Catholics, we just see fainting, lively prayer sessions, Tent Revivalism, babbling and resports of feelings and sensations. This is weak stuff compared to what the Apostles did or someone like St Padre Pio.

I have been trying so hard not to get involved in this thread, and this may be my one and only post because I honestly have a lot of other important things to do with my time…like prayer and work and family, etc.

I think it is presumptuous to judge the actions of God in other people’s life. Actually… when I pray in tongues it is because “God comes upon me.” That is the nature of praying in tongues- it is not a human language but “groans that are deeper than words” when the “Holy Spirit comes to the aid of my weakness because I do not know how to pray as I ought.” (Romans 8)

Traditionalists do not know everything. Neither do Charismatic Catholics. The Church is wide enough to embrace many different expressions of authentic Christian spirituality. It is very sad when we attack each other instead of trying to come to an understanding of where the other is coming from.

That being said, I am going to go and live life. Peace.

(P.S. We would not have to defend God and His action in our lives if others- even within the Body of Christ- were not intent on attacking.)

 

[mlz]

I have been trying so hard not to get involved in this thread, and this may be my one and only post because I honestly have a lot of other important things to do with my time…like prayer and work and family, etc.

I think it is presumptuous to judge the actions of God in other people’s life. Actually… when I pray in tongues it is because “God comes upon me.” That is the nature of praying in tongues- it is not a human language but “groans that are deeper than words” when the “Holy Spirit comes to the aid of my weakness because I do not know how to pray as I ought.” (Romans 8)

Traditionalists do not know everything. Neither do Charismatic Catholics. The Church is wide enough to embrace many different expressions of authentic Christian spirituality. It is very sad when we attack each other instead of trying to come to an understanding of where the other is coming from.

That being said, I am going to go and live life. Peace.

(P.S. We would not have to defend God and His action in our lives if others- even within the Body of Christ- were not intent on attacking.)

Amen. I understand. It’s hard hearing such harsh judgement about something you know is a beautiful, genuine part of your faith life, but it is simply a misunderstanding. If only it was known how helpful it is to open your life to Him more and more, but alas, sometimes we can’t be understood.

mlz

 

[guanophore]

I think Charismatics are being presumptous. Remove the word ‘Holy Spirit’ from their statements and substitute the word “God”. Then they read like this: “God came upon me”, “It was the power of God that caused me to speak in tongues”, “God caused him to swoon” etc. Or in the title of this thread “Defending God, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Movement”. See how odd it looks now?

Actually, it looks no different to me. It may look “odd” to you because in your mind, when you see the words “Holy Spirit” you don’t equate that with God?

How is it presumptuous for someone to experience God coming upon them?

How can we know if it’s the Holy Spirit at work? By the fruits, I guess. What are they? To traditionalist Catholics, we just see fainting, lively prayer sessions, Tent Revivalism, babbling and resports of feelings and sensations. This is weak stuff compared to what the Apostles did or someone like St Padre Pio.

You make a good point. If all “traditionalist Catholics” see are the abuses, and the fluff, it stands to reason that they would not value the charismatic gifts.

 

[Melchior_1]

I think Charismatics are being presumptous. Remove the word ‘Holy Spirit’ from their statements and substitute the word “God”. Then they read like this: “God came upon me”, “It was the power of God that caused me to speak in tongues”, “God caused him to swoon” etc. Or in the title of this thread “Defending God, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Movement”. See how odd it looks now?

It doesn’t look odd to me. Then again, the Holy Spirit is God due to the whole “Trinity” business so perhaps that’s why it doesn’t look odd to me.

 

[guanophore]

It doesn’t look odd to me. Then again, the Holy Spirit is God due to the whole “Trinity” business so perhaps that’s why it doesn’t look odd to me.

The fact that it does look “odd” to some is a demonstration of the need for a Holy Spirit Renewal.

 

[Denise1957]

I think Charismatics are being presumptous. Remove the word ‘Holy Spirit’ from their statements and substitute the word “God”. Then they read like this: “God came upon me”, “It was the power of God that caused me to speak in tongues”, “God caused him to swoon” etc. Or in the title of this thread “Defending God, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Movement”. See how odd it looks now?

How can we know if it’s the Holy Spirit at work? By the fruits, I guess. What are they? To traditionalist Catholics, we just see fainting, lively prayer sessions, Tent Revivalism, babbling and resports of feelings and sensations. This is weak stuff compared to what the Apostles did or someone like St Padre Pio.

I think I understand what you’re saying here, AntiqueCatholic, that it is weak stuff when compared to the Apostles, or someone like St. Padre Pio. I would add St. Stephen to the list, as well. Being the first martyr, who died in the same year as Our Lord, St. Stephen was filled with the Holy Ghost. But he did not speak in tongues, or any sort of gibberish. No - being filled with the Holy Ghost, he was able to go out and proclaim that Our Lord is indeed the Messiah. What he said was understood by those who heard his preaching.But the enemies of the Church did not appreciate that St. Stephen spoke the truth, so they stoned him to death. And having perfect love of God and neighbor, he asked, before he died, that his attackers not be held accountable. He forgave them. It is thought that St. Paul (then Saul) was present at the stoning, and was greatly moved by St. Stephen’s forgivenesss of his attackers.

I don’t think that Padre Pio’s gift of reading souls was a feel-good thing for him, as the extraordinary gifts seem to be for so many here. Padre Pio suffered greatly. He was completely dedicated to helping others - it’s all he did really. And I don’t recall that he ever encouraged anyone to speak in tongues, prophesy, or try to read souls (as he was able to do). I don’t recall that any of the saints have encouraged others to speak in tongues or prophesy, except for St. Paul, and even then, he had rules about it.

 

[elizabeth_anne_1]

. I don’t recall that any of the saints have encouraged others to speak in tongues or prophesy, except for St. Paul, and even then, he had rules about it.

I don’t think we can just discount what St. Paul says…What he wrote is after all the INSPIRED WORD OF GOD…

 

[Fink]

I don’t understand this post. I know you are not ignorant of the charismatic gifts that St. Paul speaks explicitly of in 1 Corinthians 12-14 so why are you ignoring them?

Because the Seven Gifts are the ones mentioned by the Church. When used correctly, the ones mentioned in Scripture would be within those seven “categories”.

Can you give an example of what you mean by Loss of self-control as you may have a point. If you are speaking of when people “rest in the spirit” when being prayed over…

Question: do you believe that anything that happens charismatic is even a little bit God or is it completely make believe or demonic? ***If there is even anything that is God in it and you choose to reject it then you are rejecting God. ***

Some (most?) of you Charismatics act as though the Holy Spirit is the personal property of the Charismatic Movement! And how patronising/condescending! Confounded hide!

Regarding tongues, my own conviction is that the great majority are due to either a screwed up brain or the demonic.
Regarding the “screwed up” brain (cant think of a better term ): during a period of two or three years in secondary school, i suffered from agonizing headaches. Off to the sick bay. On one particular day, a staff member came in and spoke to me; and utter gibberish issued forth in reply. (The staffer took off in a hurry.) One of my brothers said that one day when he was struck down by a migraine, his wife spoke to him; and his reply was gibberish. A near neighbour once told me that she went to some Charismatic do; and somehow or other, the others got her all worked up to the point where she was choking and gasping and gurgling and carrying on. The response: "Hallelujah: youre speaking in tongues!"** BALONEY!**
My late mother was talked into going to a Charismatic day; and it nearly killed her: yelling, being "slain in the Spirit’…

Regarding the demonic: speaking in tongues is a sign of possible demonic activity.

“Resting in the Spirit”? the only time our Lord knocked anyone down was when the Mob turned up to arrest Him.

The point I am taking from this is that you seem to believe that walking by the Spirit of Pentecost equates to losing self control. I am confused about where you are getting such a concept, since it is not a teaching of the Church, and could be considered an heretical or schismatic attitude.

It`s precisely BECAUSE there was no loss of self-control among the Apostles that i suspect the modern day antics.

Perhaps you did not understand my question, so I will ask it again. Are you under the misapprehension that there are only seven gifts? I will offer a passage that may help you consider your answer.

1 Cor 12:4-11

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit…

See above, plus my conviction about the CM attitude.

Do you also believe that, because liturgical abuses occur, we should stop celebrating the Eucharist?

That`s a red herring.

You could, but you would be inappropriately placing blame…

The presence of disobedient persons does not invalidate the Truth. That is like saying that, because Judas betrayed Christ, obviously His Teachings are of no value.

Problematic logic.

OK. Lets do some quoting from Donal Foleys updated Medjugorje book: "Medjugorje Revisited"
On page 15, in a chapter titled: “Medjugorje and the Charismatic Movement”:

Shortly before the visions began, an important Charismatic conference was held in Rome, in May 1981. We are told that,

*** Fr Tomislav Vlasic … had gone to Rome for an international meeting of leaders of the Charismatic Renewal. During the conference, he asked some of the leaders to pray with him for the healing of the Church in Yugoslavia. One of those praying, Sr Briege McKenna, *** had a mental picture of Fr Vlasic seated and surrounded by a great crowd; from the seat flowed streams of water. !] Another, [Fr Emiliano Tardif] said in prophecy: “Do not fear, I am sending you My mother.” A few weeks later Our Lady began appearing in Medjugorje.

[A footnote indicates that quote was from “Mary Queen of Peace. Is the Mother of God Appearing in Medjugorje?”: authors L Rooney and [COLOR=“Red”] [Fr] R Faricy.]

Fr Rene Laurentin, who Donal Foley considers to have done more to promote Medjugorje than any other single person, is a Charismatic.
[Both Fr Laurentin and Fr Tardif believed that Vassula Ryden was a genuine mystic. So did Fr Zovko. Maybe their judgement about Medjugorje is just as flawed. Fr Tardif died in 1999.]

Most of the disobedient Franciscans involved with the “visionaries” are Charismatics. That includes Fr Zovko.

Theres more; but anyway, Donal Foley lays the responsibility for turning Medjugorje into an international affair on the shoulders of the Charismatic Movement. The ones involved are almost a "Whos Who" of the more well known CM members.

 

[Melchior_1]

Some (most?) of you Charismatics act as though the Holy Spirit is the personal property of the Charismatic Movement! And how patronising/condescending! Confounded hide!

You’re calling the kettle black, Mr. Pot. I lost track of the amount of times traditionalists essentially claimed to be the sole heirs of Tradition and true Catholicism.

Regarding tongues, my own conviction is that the great majority are due to either a screwed up brain or the demonic.

Good thing you aren’t the last two Popes (one of whom is a Blessed and apparently spoke in tongues) or the Papal Preacher. Your own personal conviction sounds pretty Protestant, by the way. Especially when the Catholic Church has recognized the Charismatic Renewal as being authentic.

Theres more; but anyway, Donal Foley lays the responsibility for turning Medjugorje into an international affair on the shoulders of the Charismatic Movement. The ones involved are almost a "Whos Who" of the more well known CM members.

Flip this around; lets credit traditionalists for the rise of fringe Sedevacantism, shall we? Maybe blame traditionalists for the whole SSPX fiasco?

Seriously though Fink, it’s like you decided to not read the entire thread and instead decided it’d be prudent to post sweeping generalizations.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t think that Padre Pio’s gift of reading souls was a feel-good thing for him, as the extraordinary gifts seem to be for so many here. Padre Pio suffered greatly. He was completely dedicated to helping others - it’s all he did really. And I don’t recall that he ever encouraged anyone to speak in tongues, prophesy, or try to read souls (as he was able to do). I don’t recall that any of the saints have encouraged others to speak in tongues or prophesy, except for St. Paul, and even then, he had rules about it.

This is a good point. Paul was clear that the purpose of the gifts are to build up the believer, and the Body, but for what? Faith, working through love is all that matters. Any gifts that are not used to do His work on earth are misused, or unused gifts. Some people are able to be filled with His perfect love and service without this kind of help. Some of us are not.

 

[guanophore]

Because the Seven Gifts are the ones mentioned by the Church. When used correctly, the ones mentioned in Scripture would be within those seven “categories”.

I think this sets up a false dichotomy. There are many more gifts mentioned in scripture than only these seven, just like there are many more sins mentioned than the “seven deadly sins”. There is no need to 'categorize" them this way. It is adding a human idea to something that is not in scripture.

1 Cor 12:4-11
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 **To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. **8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Eph 4:11-13
11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ

I think it might be more accurate to say that these other gifts are meant to operate according to the gifts of character that are mentioned in Isaiah. Those gifts are fruit of the Spirit, where the other gifts listed here are given when there may be no fruit of the Spirit at all. The recipient needs to grow into them, and manifest fruit through them.

Some (most?) of you Charismatics act as though the Holy Spirit is the personal property of the Charismatic Movement! And how patronising/condescending! Confounded hide!

I am sorry that you have had such an arrogant experience of Charismatics. It is certainly true that Charismatics get excited about what they have discovered, and want everyone to share in that excitement. It is also true that human beings have a tendency to be myopic, and think that the only way to look at things is the way they see them ie, if you are not speaking in tongues you are not filled with the Spirit.

Regarding tongues, my own conviction is that the great majority are due to either a screwed up brain or the demonic.

That may be, but it does not invalidate the valid gift, which has a rightful place in the Church.

 Regarding the "screwed up" brain (can`t think of a better term ): during a period of two or three years in secondary school, i suffered from agonizing headaches. Off to the sick bay. On one particular day, a staff member came in and spoke to me; and utter gibberish issued forth in reply. (The staffer took off in a hurry.) One of my brothers said that one day when he was struck down by a migraine, his wife spoke to him; and his reply was gibberish.

I watched a documentary on PBS where they passed a very powerful magnet over the brain of a person talking, and it instantly turned to gibberish.

Paul does say that when a person prays in tongues “my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful”. This is a great need in our culture today, where people tend to get way too much in their heads, and can’t even turn off their minds for 10 minutes to have a fruitful spiritual encounter with Christ. Look how few frequent adoration!

A near neighbour once told me that she went to some Charismatic do; and somehow or other, the others got her all worked up to the point where she was choking and gasping and gurgling and carrying on. The response: "Hallelujah: you`re speaking in tongues!"** BALONEY!**

Frightening.

My late mother was talked into going to a Charismatic day; and it nearly killed her: yelling, being "slain in the Spirit'......

Interesting. When Jesus drove out demons, sometimes the people looked like they were dead.

Yelling is not one of the charismatic gifts.