Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

[Denise1957]

This is a very good read, though she uses unfamiliar language, so it is difficult sometimes to understand what she is talking about. Basically she writes the stages of contempletive prayer,and how a soul passes through them as they advance in depth of spirituality. She mentions many of the charismatic gifts, but does so incidentally.

St. Teresa of Avila is a Doctor of the Church and wrote several books, directed toward the sisters under her care, to give them guidance. She was a nun in 16th century Spain, and a close friend of St. John of the Cross, another Doctor of the Church who writes about mystical experiences. In Interior Castle She described the gift of tongues in chapter 6, sections 11 and 15, she writes:

"Amongst these favours, at once painful and pleasant, Our Lord sometimes causes in the soul a certain jubilation and a strange and mysterious kind of prayer. If He bestows this grace on you, praise Him fervently for it; I describe it so that you may know that it is something real. I believe that the faculties of the soul are closely united to God but that He leaves them at liberty to rejoice in their happiness together with the senses, although they do not know what they are enjoying nor how they do so. This may sound nonsense but it really happens.

May His Majesty often grant us this kind of prayer which is most safe and beneficial; we cannot acquire it for ourselves as it is quite supernatural. Sometimes it lasts for a whole day and the soul is like one inebriated, although not deprived of the senses; Compare with this what has been said in the fourth chapter of this Mansion, nor like a person afflicted with melancholia, Melancholia here as elsewhere means hysteria. in which, though the reason is not entirely lost, the imagination continually dwells on some subject which possesses it and from which it cannot be freed. These are coarse comparisons to make in connection with such a precious gift, yet nothing else occurs to my mind. In this state of prayer a person is rendered by this jubilee so forgetful of self and everything else that she can neither think nor speak of anything but praising God, to which her joy prompts her. Let us all of us join her, my daughters, for why should we wish to be wiser than she? What can make us happier? And may all creatures unite their praises with ours for ever and ever. Amen, amen, amen!"

These are great quotes by St. Teresa. But as the book is devoted to the path to perfection by means of prayer (mostly prayer, anyway), of course she’s going to write mostly about things as related with prayer. In the above quotes, however, she does not mention speaking in tongues or prophesy here, that I can see. Also, she does not mention the Holy Ghost at all here. Nor does she mention the Holy Ghost in any of chapter six. She does mention Him elsewhere, though. But most of what she writes concerning the Interior Castle has to do with Our Lord, whom she often refers to as His Majesty.

 

[vardaquinn]

Thanks for finding the quote. While I can’t find the quote in Interior Castle; it could still be there. It looks like St.Theresa’s writing style, and sounds like something she’d write. When she mentions the word, ‘gibberish’ above, though, I don’t equate its use in the sentence as having to do with speaking in tongues. You may disagree, and that’s okay. Notice, too, that she does not refer or attribute what she’s describing to the Holy Ghost at all, but only to Our Lord.

Well, it’s a great description of praying in tongues. She’s given a strange prayer she does not understand, and to her it sounds like gibberish (because she doesn’t know the language). I don’t see what that could be besides tongues. It’s either tongues, or something that’s exactly the same thing but different because it’s a Doctor of the Church…

Of course it is Our Lord who bestows the gift. The distinction is very slight and of little importance. Our Lord sends forth the Holy Spirit. He, and the Father, and the Spirit are all one. To claim that St. Teresa here is simply experiencing a gift from Our Lord and not the Holy Spirit is really silly. I think, pardon me if this is rude it is not intended to be, that you are being very obstinate and bluntly refusing to believe the obvious truth that St. Teresa is experiencing here is the same as is experienced by Catholic charismatics. You wanted information from the Doctors of the Church. Well, we have provided information from two of the greatest masters in the spiritual life - St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross.

 

[FAB]

I dont’ see any direction of this kind. In fact, I see the opposite. This concept is not found anywhere in any Church teaching, or any writings by Catholic Charismatic authors.

It is rampant in Pentecostal Protestant circles, but I dont think we should be taking cues or “direction” from our separated brethren. I am glad they are all jazzed up about Jesus, but they are not in communion with the successors of the Apostles, and they are outside the authority appointed by God.

Such “circles” then, are poorly catechized. It is true that one must be willing to have a personal experience with God to be open to the Charisms. I am not sure that it can be characterized as a “process”. Although I realize that being open to the Spirit’s movement in one’s life can be progressive, all the gifts of the HS are sealed within the believer at baptism. What might be a process is opening and learning to use those gifts that have been given. Most Catholics don’t recognize them, and many dont’ believe they were given any.

Another Sacrament I have seen “degraded” is the Annointing of the Sick. There have been some laypeople that annoint people with oil and pray over them, and do not distinguish these personal prayers from the Sacramental annointing with oil for the Sick. It was so bad in this area the bishop had to forbid the use of blessed oil. He encourages prayer over one another, but must distinguish this from sacramental prayer.

Yes. There is much catechesis that is needed. Some people that receive the gifts get so full of joy and enthusiasm about their newfound surge of faith that they go off half cocked. I am sorry that this happened to you, but I hope you will continue to speak about it, so that people can be educated about how wrong it is.

Yes, there is much pastoral work that needs to be done. It is the duty of the priests to help the people identify and use their gifts appropriately, but some of them have little or no experience in doing so.

It was a very good thing for me.

Please understand, in general I don’t have a problem with the movement. There are concerns, that it seems that you agree with the extremes that do exist within the movement. There is pastoral guidance needed, but I’ve seen priest get caught up in the movement to the point of not correcting abuses.

I still see that those in the movement feel that the gotten special gifts, charisms are misunderstanding the them and the use. The hardest people I have found to teach pastorally are these.

I had a minister, who is very religious, but they was not performing the ministerial duties properly. When asked to change, the answer was that the Holy Spirit was telling her to do it that way. They took great offense and refused to listen to the pastoral authority.
Another minister who I work with in counseling youth claims she has the charism of discerning spirits and does not want to follow the prescribed program that is laid out.

In both of these cases they believe they refuse to listen to the pastor or other religious authority, since they believe they have a direct connection to a higher authority. They seem to forget the part that Christ gave authority to Peter and his successors, which in the end goes to the priest and the ordained.

 

[Denise1957]

Well, it’s a great description of praying in tongues. She’s given a strange prayer she does not understand, and to her it sounds like gibberish (because she doesn’t know the language). I don’t see what that could be besides tongues. It’s either tongues, or something that’s exactly the same thing but different because it’s a Doctor of the Church…

Of course it is Our Lord who bestows the gift. The distinction is very slight and of little importance. Our Lord sends forth the Holy Spirit. He, and the Father, and the Spirit are all one. To claim that St. Teresa here is simply experiencing a gift from Our Lord and not the Holy Spirit is really silly. I think, pardon me if this is rude it is not intended to be, that you are being very obstinate and bluntly refusing to believe the obvious truth that St. Teresa is experiencing here is the same as is experienced by Catholic charismatics. You wanted information from the Doctors of the Church. Well, we have provided information from two of the greatest masters in the spiritual life - St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross.

You wrote that to her (St. Teresa) it sounded like gibberish, but that’s not what the original quote says. She is addressing her instruction to her sisters in her convent, since she is their superior. That’s what the book is about. She wrote…“What I am saying seems like gibberish, but certainly the experience takes place in this way.” She is telling her sisters that they may not understand what she is trying to tell them. Nothing to do with the gibberish that pentacostals engage in. Throughout the book, she apologizes that she can’t explain things very well. If you had read the book, you would understand this.

No, Vardaquinn, St. Teresa is not encouraging her religious sisters to speak in tongues and prophesy. Nor is St. Teresa saying that she is speaking in tongues. You are grasping at straws here to try to prove that this saint was doing this. You would do well to read the book in its entirety, rather than take the word of others who believe that what this saint is doing is the same as those in CCR. She is not.

 

[Denise1957]

Well, it’s a great description of praying in tongues. She’s given a strange prayer she does not understand, and to her it sounds like gibberish (because she doesn’t know the language). I don’t see what that could be besides tongues. It’s either tongues, or something that’s exactly the same thing but different because it’s a Doctor of the Church…

Of course it is Our Lord who bestows the gift. The distinction is very slight and of little importance. Our Lord sends forth the Holy Spirit. He, and the Father, and the Spirit are all one. To claim that St. Teresa here is simply experiencing a gift from Our Lord and not the Holy Spirit is really silly. I think, pardon me if this is rude it is not intended to be, that you are being very obstinate and bluntly refusing to believe the obvious truth that St. Teresa is experiencing here is the same as is experienced by Catholic charismatics. You wanted information from the Doctors of the Church. Well, we have provided information from two of the greatest masters in the spiritual life - St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross.

I should add that I was probably too hasty in thinking that the quotes you provided were from St. Teresa, since you could not give a source for them. As yet, it hasn’t been established that she wrote these things. Could you provide proof that the quotes are from her? It would be helpful, I think.

 

[AntiqueCatholic]

I think organised mystical practices could be good for the Church. They just can’t be left to amateurs. They’d have to be organised by spiritual Masters. Otherwise, you’d have the same problem Protestant sects have: Reverend Jim leading his flock astray.

He activates a chakra or two, exhibits some interesting phenomena, then runs off with organist.

I have it!

Charismatic leaders should be judged the way suspicious pagans judged the saints: By their miraculous acts, their objective piety, their chastity and humility and their Message.

Singing, niceness, falling over, speaking gibberish, sensations, personal interpretations of Scripture, changing rosaries to gold and messages from beyond won’t cut it.

These things you can get in any cult.

 

[jmj1984]

I think organised mystical practices could be good for the Church. They just can’t be left to amateurs. They’d have to be organised by spiritual Masters. Otherwise, you’d have the same problem Protestant sects have: Reverend Jim leading his flock astray.

He activates a chakra or two, exhibits some interesting phenomena, then runs off with organist.

I have it!

Charismatic leaders should be judged the way suspicious pagans judged the saints: By their miraculous acts, their objective piety, their chastity and humility and their Message.

Singing, niceness, falling over, speaking gibberish, sensations, personal interpretations of Scripture, changing rosaries to gold and messages from beyond won’t cut it.

These things you can get in any cult.

:clapping:

Frankly the very fact that the movement is based on a protestant movement is enough to arouse my suspicions, its subsequent miring in bad theology and false ecumenicism convinces me that the movement is deeply flawed.

 

[guanophore]

These are great quotes by St. Teresa. But as the book is devoted to the path to perfection by means of prayer (mostly prayer, anyway), of course she’s going to write mostly about things as related with prayer. In the above quotes, however, she does not mention speaking in tongues or prophesy here, that I can see.

I am curious what exactly you would expect to see in these cases? For those of us that have had this experience, she describes it perfectly.

Also, she does not mention the Holy Ghost at all here. Nor does she mention the Holy Ghost in any of chapter six. She does mention Him elsewhere, though. But most of what she writes concerning the Interior Castle has to do with Our Lord, whom she often refers to as His Majesty.

You are giving the impression that “Our Lord” can be separated from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Denise1957]

I am curious what exactly you would expect to see in these cases? For those of us that have had this experience, she describes it perfectly.

You are giving the impression that “Our Lord” can be separated from the Holy Spirit.

My original question was to ask how St. Teresa comes close to encouraging speaking in tongues and prophesying. The quote you gave doesn’t show that she came close to encouraging others to speak in tongues and prophesy. But then those here who try to push for widespread use of the extraordinary gifts will try to make the saints conform to their views.

 

[guanophore]

No, Vardaquinn, St. Teresa is not encouraging her religious sisters to speak in tongues and prophesy. Nor is St. Teresa saying that she is speaking in tongues. You are grasping at straws here to try to prove that this saint was doing this. You would do well to read the book in its entirety, rather than take the word of others who believe that what this saint is doing is the same as those in CCR. She is not.

I agree that she is referring to her own inablity to describe the experience as gibberish, but the state of ecstacy she is describing is that from which tongues and prophesy flow. I think what she is encouraging this state of prayer, and all that accompanies it.

 

[Denise1957]

I agree that she is referring to her own inablity to describe the experience as gibberish, but the state of ecstacy she is describing is that from which tongues and prophesy flow. I think what she is encouraging this state of prayer, and all that accompanies it.

We have no way of knowing, as yet, that those quotes that vardaquinn gave can be attributed to St. Teresa of Avila.

 

[guanophore]

I should add that I was probably too hasty in thinking that the quotes you provided were from St. Teresa, since you could not give a source for them. As yet, it hasn’t been established that she wrote these things. Could you provide proof that the quotes are from her? It would be helpful, I think.

The Interior Castle
The Sixth Dwelling Places
CHAPTER 6

 

[guanophore]

:clapping:

Frankly the very fact that the movement is based on a protestant movement is enough to arouse my suspicions, its subsequent miring in bad theology and false ecumenicism convinces me that the movement is deeply flawed.

It sounds like you don’t believe that the Pentecostal gifts are “based” on the Holy Spirit, but are an invention of man. This would also mean that you don’t believe what the Popes and prayed and taught with regard to them.

I can see being suspicious of something that originated in an heretical source, but rejecting your own Magesterial Teaching seems like overkill.

 

[vardaquinn]

I should add that I was probably too hasty in thinking that the quotes you provided were from St. Teresa, since you could not give a source for them. As yet, it hasn’t been established that she wrote these things. Could you provide proof that the quotes are from her? It would be helpful, I think.

I have read much of Interior Castle, but I currently don’t have it right now. I have noticed she apologizes for her poor ability to explain things, but in this case that seems rather misleading. Because notice in the sentence before she says “a strange prayer it does not understand”. That itself, already, is a good indication of the gift of tongues. Even so, it doesn’t matter too much. Plenty of other saints have experienced this gift, and even that hardly matters because of what Scripture itself says about it.

I typed that quote up from one of the St. Teresa of Avila books I have, but thank you guanaphore for confirming the quote. Unfortunately, I don’t have Interior Castle currently which is why I was a bit hesitant to say it came from there.

I never said she was directly encouraging it, but that she comes close to. Notice those bits I put in bold, where she’s saying things like if only everyone knew this joy. That is, if they were given the feelings of jubilation and the strange prayer the soul does not understand.

Read that other article I linked about St. John of the Cross and charisms. There is more information on prophecy in there. You’ll probably actually find a whole lot more on that in the spiritual tradition of the Church. Tongues isn’t in the long run all that important.

 

[jmj1984]

It sounds like you don’t believe that the Pentecostal gifts are “based” on the Holy Spirit, but are an invention of man. This would also mean that you don’t believe what the Popes and prayed and taught with regard to them.

I can see being suspicious of something that originated in an heretical source, but rejecting your own Magesterial Teaching seems like overkill.

Are you going to deny that the catholic charasmatic movement owes its existence to a protestant sect?

As for popes teaching in the so called ‘pentecostal’ gifts or praying with them, contrary to popular belief there has been no support for the catholic charasmatic movement.

 

[Denise1957]

The Interior Castle
The Sixth Dwelling Places
CHAPTER 6

There isn’t a section in the book called 'The Sixth Dwelling Places" Do you mean chapter 6 of the section that describes the sixth mansion? If so, then the quote isn’t there. Perhaps you can be more specific? I have a copy of the book next to the computer, right in front of me.

 

[vardaquinn]

Are you going to deny that the catholic charasmatic movement owes its existence to a protestant sect?

As for popes teaching in the so called ‘pentecostal’ gifts or praying with them, contrary to popular belief there has been no support for the catholic charasmatic movement.

Yes, we are going to deny this. The Catholic Charismatic Movement owes its existence to the Catholic Church and to the Holy Spirit. Read up on Vatican II.

And… check it out. iccrs.org/en/index.php/ccr/ There’s been quite a lot of support for it actually. You can find plenty of stuff on the Vatican Website of the Pope meeting with the charismatic movement. vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1998/may/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19980530_riflessioni_en.html This one is especially crucial, since he affirms there there that the charismatic dimension is co-essential with the institutional to the very nature of the church.

Here are others: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1987/may/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19870515_assemblea-carismatici_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1993/september/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19930918_rinnovam-carismatico_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2002/march/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20020314_rinnovamento-spirito-santo_en.html

Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI have all given strong support and approval. In fact, George Weigel, the biographer of Bl. Pope John Paul II, argues in “The End and the Beginning” that it was Bl. Pope John Paul II’s support for new renewal movements that emphasized the role of charisms and openness to the Holy Spirit that was one of the biggest things he did to implement Vatican II and the Council’s message of the universal call to holiness.

Not only the Popes, but many Bishops and Cardinals (especially Cardinal Suenens), including the United States Bishops, have expressed strong support for the movement. See their document here, catholiccharismatic.us/ccc/articles/nonattributed/US_Bishops_001.html which echoes what the Pope has said about the charismatic dimension being a necessary part of the ordinary christian life.

@ Denise: yeah, that should be it. My translation I remember said Dwelling Place, others have said Mansion or something similar. It’s just a difference in translation.

 

[guanophore]

Are you going to deny that the catholic charasmatic movement owes its existence to a protestant sect?

Of course I will!

The only Truth that Protestants have came from the portion of Catholicism they have retained.
I believe that the Lord has heard the prayers of the Popes for the last century with regard to the Spirit renewing the Church. I would have preferred that it happened at a meeting of Bishops in Rome, but the Lord moves as He will. It is sufficient that it has been investigated and approved by the Holy Fathers. Both JP2 and Benedict have given affirmation.

Pentecost belongs to the Catholic Church. It is obvious from all the abuses that occur that the spiritual gifts need to function under Her guidance and direction.

As for popes teaching in the so called ‘pentecostal’ gifts or praying with them, contrary to popular belief there has been no support for the catholic charasmatic movement.

Statements like this utterly amaze me. Do you believe that statements ascribed to the Popes are fabricated?

 

[jmj1984]

Yes, we are going to deny this. The Catholic Charismatic Movement owes its existence to the Catholic Church and to the Holy Spirit. Read up on Vatican II.

And… check it out. iccrs.org/en/index.php/ccr/ There’s been quite a lot of support for it actually. You can find plenty of stuff on the Vatican Website of the Pope meeting with the charismatic movement. vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1998/may/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19980530_riflessioni_en.html This one is especially crucial, since he affirms there there that the charismatic dimension is co-essential with the institutional to the very nature of the church.

Here are others: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1987/may/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19870515_assemblea-carismatici_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1993/september/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19930918_rinnovam-carismatico_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2002/march/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20020314_rinnovamento-spirito-santo_en.html

Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI have all given strong support and approval. In fact, George Weigel, the biographer of Bl. Pope John Paul II, argues in “The End and the Beginning” that it was Bl. Pope John Paul II’s support for new renewal movements that emphasized the role of charisms and openness to the Holy Spirit that was one of the biggest things he did to implement Vatican II and the Council’s message of the universal call to holiness.

Not only the Popes, but many Bishops and Cardinals (especially Cardinal Suenens), including the United States Bishops, have expressed strong support for the movement. See their document here, catholiccharismatic.us/ccc/articles/nonattributed/US_Bishops_001.html which echoes what the Pope has said about the charismatic dimension being a necessary part of the ordinary christian life.

@ Denise: yeah, that should be it. My translation I remember said Dwelling Place, others have said Mansion or something similar. It’s just a difference in translation.

So we have approval from Pope John Paul II and an approval of sorts from Pope Paul VI. I’m going to go out on a limb and say (along with many traditionalist catholics and theologians) I disagree with them on this matter. We should also be careful not to represent this approval as dogmatic or doctrinal, its not, nor should we represent this as some sort of authoritative document approving the movement its not.

Setting then statements made by the Popes as persons i.e their opinions, not in anyway their teaching against the condemnation of movements similar to the charasmatic movement by numerous saints, theologians and doctors of the church I’ll retain my suspicion of the movement.

And no, I’m afraid you cannot deny that the movement owes its existence to the protestant charasmatic movement. The belief that it came from Vatican II or the holy spirit is your opinion , it is however a fact that it came from the pentecostal movement, a protestant movement.

 

[guanophore]

There isn’t a section in the book called 'The Sixth Dwelling Places" Do you mean chapter 6 of the section that describes the sixth mansion? If so, then the quote isn’t there. Perhaps you can be more specific? I have a copy of the book next to the computer, right in front of me.

Sorry Denise. I just now had trouble finding it again myself! I am using a collected works vol 2 translated by Kavanaugh. In this volume the Castle is Iarranged in sections according to the mansions. Within that 6th section it is in the 6th chapter. My book also has paragraph numbers and it is number 10. Hope that helps.