Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

[guanophore]

Regarding the demonic: speaking in tongues is a sign of possible demonic activity.

It is, indeed. One must discern the Spirits.

“Resting in the Spirit”? the only time our Lord knocked anyone down was when the Mob turned up to arrest Him.

This is one scriptural account, but there are others. Encountering God can be overwhelming. Have you ever considered that the reason people get knocked down is because they are arresting the movement of God in their lives?

It`s precisely BECAUSE there was no loss of self-control among the Apostles that i suspect the modern day antics.

As well you should. This is the major source of abuse, and I suspect the reason that the gifts fell into disuse in the Church - too easy to get out of control. Maybe the time has come to have a new Pentecost?

That`s a red herring.

No, it is not. Neither are liturgical abuses, unfortunately. It is illustrating a point of illogic.

Theres more; but anyway, Donal Foley lays the responsibility for turning Medjugorje into an international affair on the shoulders of the Charismatic Movement. The ones involved are almost a "Whos Who" of the more well known CM members.

Disobedient people do not have the power to invalidate the Gifts of God. It is regrettable that they have not been obedient, but their rebellion does not mean His gifts have no value. It is, however a good illustration of why the Church has allowed the charismatic gifts to fall by the wayside.

 

[The_New_Man]

Good thing you aren’t the last two Popes (one of whom is a Blessed and apparently spoke in tongues)

Really JPII Spoke in tongues? Do you have an unbiased source for this?
What a Blessed can’t make a mistake when approving a movement within the Church? Should we also celebrate the fact that Saint Hippolytus was the first antipope because he is saint or should we regard his antipope days as a sad mistake on his part? Was the approval of the CCR an infallible proclamation? If not then why are Catholic’s being regarded as not loving the Holy Spirit or the Holy Father just because they do not approve of the CCR’s methods?

Is it possible that a movement could take something the Holy Father approved of and completely twist it into something it was never meant to be? Didn’t this happen after Vatican II where a lot of abuses were carried out by Catholics claiming they were acting in the “Spirit of Vatican II” and under the approval of the Holy Fathers?

Also Denise1957 asked some really good questions and made some good points that were accidently passed over.

Originally Posted by guanophorehttp://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
It was the prayers of the Holy Father that started the Renewal.

*You can also read the history on this page. *The outpouring began on the very day the Pope prayed for it.

Originally Posted by Denise1957

You mention that it was the prayers of the Holy Father that started the renewal. However, I can’t find the novena that Pope Leo Xlll wanted to have said in Catholic churches before Whit Sunday every year. This is the prayer to which you - or the article, rather - is referring, right? The article also states that this prayer (novena) says to…“pray for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.” I’d like to see if the Pope’s novena actually says this, or if the author is making it up.

Also, the author of the above article states that…“In the last 100 years one of the most obvious and the most important developments for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in modern times came when Pope Leo Xlll published Divinum Illud Manus, and encyclical on the Holy Spirit. He labored the fact that the Holy Spirit was so little known and appreciated.”

Well, I’ve read through the encyclical, and can’t find where it says any such thing (that the Holy Father labored the fact that the Holy Spirit was so little known and appreciated). Maybe I’ve missed it. Maybe you can read through it and let me know if the Holy Father actually said this; here’s a link to the encyclical:

vatican.va/holy_father/le…-munus_en.html

Also, the article you linked to mentioned that the Pope wrote the novena because of the encouragement of Bl. Elena Guerra. However, I can’t find any information about Bl. Elena Guerra which states that she practiced the extraordinary gifts, such as speaking in tongues and prophesying. That she was devoted to the Holy Spirit is commendable, of course. But I can’t find anywhere that she believed in or practiced anything other than what the Church has traditionally taught regarding devotion to the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.

 

[AntiqueCatholic]

Charismatics are claiming that God is directly acting upon them in a dramatic way. How can this be tested? By the fruits.

Traditionalist Catholics aren’t impressed by what Charismatics are continually proposing: that expressive Masses and worship services and ‘Holy Roller’-style meetings are useful to spiritual advancement.

It’s disingenuous to claim that this sort of behaviour is traditional. There were never organised events like this in the Catholic Church, AFAIK. It’s new. But not in Protestantism.

The ‘approval’ of the Church is limited to a couple of quotes from the Bible and statements by recent Popes, who, I recall, added admonitions to their ‘approval’.

When the Apostles spake the people around them understood them. It was necessary, because those around them were foreigners. What purpose is served by a bunch of Americans speaking in tongues to each other, today?

The only other situation I’ve heard of someone writhing around and speaking a foreign language is when someone was possessed.

I’ve gotten the idea that demonic mystical phenomena has this characteristic: it’s kind of impressive, but it doesn’t help anyone, really. It’s just a distraction, a show. Cheap tricks.

 

[vardaquinn]

Really JPII Spoke in tongues? Do you have an unbiased source for this?
What a Blessed can’t make a mistake when approving a movement within the Church? Should we also celebrate the fact that Saint Hippolytus was the first antipope because he is saint or should we regard his antipope days as a sad mistake on his part? Was the approval of the CCR an infallible proclamation? If not then why are Catholic’s being regarded as not loving the Holy Spirit or the Holy Father just because they do not approve of the CCR’s methods?

Is it possible that a movement could take something the Holy Father approved of and completely twist it into something it was never meant to be? Didn’t this happen after Vatican II where a lot of abuses were carried out by Catholics claiming they were acting in the “Spirit of Vatican II” and under the approval of the Holy Fathers?

Read Hungry for God by Ralph Martin. He and several other leaders in the movement met with Bl. Pope John Paul II, in which he prayed in tongues with them.

Sure it’s possible. I’m sure some charismatics have done that. I know I haven’t though.

 

[elizabeth_anne_1]

Someone better let Pope Benedict know about the dangers of a charismatic spirituality seeing that the preacher to the papal household is both Franciscan and charismatic. Oh wait…I bet the Pope is probably already aware of that. Hmmm…The Pope has the humility to think he may actually benefit from the preaching of a charismatic friar…very suspicious!.

 

[vardaquinn]

Someone better let Pope Benedict know about the dangers of a charismatic spirituality seeing that the preacher to the papal household is both Franciscan and charismatic. Oh wait…I bet the Pope is probably already aware of that. Hmmm…The Pope has the humility to think he may actually benefit from the preaching of a charismatic friar…very suspicious!.

Oh wait… considering what Pope Benedict has ALREADY said… and considering he’s one the most brilliant theologians and philosophers of all time… He’s probably way on top of it.

 

[vardaquinn]

I don’t recall that any of the saints have encouraged others to speak in tongues or prophesy, except for St. Paul, and even then, he had rules about it.

Let’s see… A lot of the early Church Fathers, St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus, St. John Chrysostom… St. Teresa of Avila comes close to encouraging it in Interior Castle… Bl. Pope John Paul II definitely (both the form for instruction and prayer).

But yeah. Considering what St. Paul is saying happens to be the inspired Word of God, and considering he does say stuff like"I would like all of to speak in tongues" and “pray in the Spirit every chance you get”… I think that itself should be good enough for everyone.

 

[FAB]

Pope Paul VI gave his blessings to the renewal of the charisms given by the Holy Spirit within the Catholic Church. Can anyone defend this movement for the sake of the Holy Spirit who is guiding the Church with the charisms which the Church has always possessed? I want to defend this movement as an aftermath of the ‘inspired’ Second Vatican Council. But I don’t know where to start.

I am very familar with the Chrismatic movements. There are both good and bad points to it.

What is disturbing, and this is a direction that the Chrismatic has gone only in more recent years of it’s short history is the idea that that to truely have an experiance with God that is has to be through what is call baptized in the Spirit. Then through this procress an individual is given certain charisms. It has almost come in some circles that I have seen as having to be done in addtition to the sacraments of baptism and confirmation which deagrates the sacraments.

I have personally faces this, and when I shared that theolgical opposition to the practice, I was told that the devil was keeping me from understanding. This I found could be harmful, particular to those who do not proper catichitical training, which sadly are the case of many Catholics.

There needs to be an examination of the movement. Many people believe they have recieved special charisms, which they have not and take great offens if they are told they are error. It leads them to take actions or refuse to do things to which valid church authority instructs.

There are positive aspects, as it does bring, often time previous lost souls to Christ by their evangelization. This is indeed a very good thing.

 

[The_New_Man]

Read Hungry for God by Ralph Martin. He and several other leaders in the movement met with Bl. Pope John Paul II, in which he prayed in tongues with them.

Thanks for the recommendation but I’m confused. I thought I asked you for an unbiased source for the claim that JPII spoke in tongues. Ralph Martin is hardly unbiased source. Maybe something like a statement from JPII himself or a source from someone other than an influential person in the renewal.

 

[Denise1957]

Let’s see… A lot of the early Church Fathers, St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus, St. John Chrysostom… St. Teresa of Avila comes close to encouraging it in Interior Castle… Bl. Pope John Paul II definitely (both the form for instruction and prayer).

But yeah. Considering what St. Paul is saying happens to be the inspired Word of God, and considering he does say stuff like"I would like all of to speak in tongues" and “pray in the Spirit every chance you get”… I think that itself should be good enough for everyone.

St. Teresa of Avila comes close to encouraging speaking in tongues and prophesying in her work, “Interior Castle?” Please tell me where, in this book, where she says this. I’m familiar with this book.

 

[guanophore]

 Really JPII Spoke in tongues? Do you have an unbiased source for this? :shrug:

I have not seen one, but I have heard this a lot also.

“Seek eagerly after love. Set your hearts on spiritual gifts.” —1 Corinthians 14:1

Pope John Paul II has taught: "The Holy Spirit, while bestowing diverse ministries in Church communion, enriches it still further with particular gifts or promptings of grace, called charisms…The charisms are received in gratitude both on the part of the one who receives them, and also on the part of the entire Church. They are in fact a singularly rich source of grace for the vitality of the apostolate and for the holiness of the whole Body of Christ (The Lay Members of Christ’s Faithful People, 24).

Pope John Paul II has also taught: "The Spirit of Jesus, received by the humble and docile heart of the believer, brings about the flourishing of Christian moral life and the witness of holiness amid the great variety of vocations, gifts, responsibilities, conditions and life situations. As Novatian once pointed out — here expressing the authentic faith of the Church — it is the Holy Spirit ‘who confirmed the hearts and minds of the disciples, who revealed the mysteries of the Gospel, who shed upon them the light of things divine. Strengthened by his gift, they did not fear either prisons or chains for the name of the Lord; indeed they even trampled upon the powers and torments of the world, armed and strengthened by him, having in themselves the gifts which this same Spirit bestows and directs like jewels to the Church, the Bride of Christ. It is in fact he who raises up prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, guides tongues, works wonders and healings, accomplishes miracles, grants the discernment of spirits, assigns governance, inspires counsels, distributes and harmonizes every other charismatic gift’ " (The Splendor of Truth, 108).

What a Blessed can’t make a mistake when approving a movement within the Church?

She did not ask for the kind of “movement” we see today with so many abuses. But she did strongly see the need for a new Pentecost. It is improper, though to confine her request to the holy Father to tongues. Tongues is the least of all the gifts, and does not serve the Body as the other gifts do. The Apostle enjoins us to “earnestly desire the BEST gifts, especially that you may prophesy”.

Was the approval of the CCR an infallible proclamation? If not then why are Catholic’s being regarded as not loving the Holy Spirit or the Holy Father just because they do not approve of the CCR’s methods?

The gifts of Pentecost are part of the doctrine of the faith - the once for all divine deposit. A proclamation about these doctrines are only made when there is rampant heresy.

I am not aware of any Catholics not being regarded as loving the Holy Spirit just because they do not approve of some of the practices. However, I have heard testimony on these threads that this occurs. It is improper, narrow minded, and judgmental.

Sometimes, though, people do not separate the authentic gifts and the Teaching of the Church from the “movement” and the abuses that have happened. When a Catholic is unable to affirm a doctrine of the faith, it causes disunity.

Is it possible that a movement could take something the Holy Father approved of and completely twist it into something it was never meant to be?

Of course! People can do this with just about anything. We only need to look at the “spirit of Vatican II” and what happened to the Liturgy to see that this can, and does, happen. However, abuses do the not invalidate the true Liturgy.

?

Also Denise1957 asked some really good questions and made some good points that were accidently passed over.

I will go back and look for them.

 

[guanophore]

Charismatics are claiming that God is directly acting upon them in a dramatic way. How can this be tested? By the fruits.

Even for a person that does not outwardly identify as “charismatic”, is it not our call as Christians to yield to God acting in and through us in a dramatic way?

Traditionalist Catholics aren’t impressed by what Charismatics are continually proposing: that expressive Masses and worship services and ‘Holy Roller’-style meetings are useful to spiritual advancement.

Which Charismatics are “proposing” this?

What I see that is being encouraged by the Holy Father in the above instruction is living a spirit filled life, building up the Body, and ministering to the world. This is the purpose of all the gifts.

There is nothing more useful to spiritual advancement than the Divine Liturgy, whether it is silent, or expressive is only a matter of taste.

I am not sure what you mean by “holy roller style meetings”, but prayer meetings and bible study are one of the ways that people grow in faith, and get teaching and support to apply the Gospel in daily life. It is a mystery why any Catholic would object to such methods for spiritual advancement.

There are many indulgences given for reading scripture and praying. Why would it be offensive if people decided to do this as a group, rather than individually?

It’s disingenuous to claim that this sort of behaviour is traditional.

When I read the New Testament, I see believers gathering for prayer, praise, and study of the Scripture. I realize that there were many centuries where the Western Church was primarily comprised of illiterate persons, and that Bible;s were painstakingly copied by hand, but now that these are no longer problems, how is it “uncatholic” to pray and study scripture? how is it uncatholic to sing songs of praise together?

There were never organised events like this in the Catholic Church, AFAIK. It’s new.

Yes. I think this is a result of the outpouring of the Spirit in our day, just as the Holy Father requested. Prior to modern media and communication methods, it would have been very difficult to organize them.

The 'approval' of the Church is limited to a couple of quotes from the Bible and statements by recent Popes, who, I recall, added admonitions to their 'approval'.

Which are not often heeded as they should be. So, what is insufficient about the Bible, and the teaching of the Popes?

When the Apostles spake the people around them understood them. It was necessary, because those around them were foreigners. What purpose is served by a bunch of Americans speaking in tongues to each other, today?

This is only one variety of tongues. There are many.

The only other situation I've heard of someone writhing around and speaking a foreign language is when someone was possessed.

There were many saints and even non-Catholics who have experienced this. I am just reading the memoirs of a Lakota woman who gives an account. It can be demonic in source. I guess I don’t understand why people get so hung up on this one, the least of the gifts.

I’ve gotten the idea that demonic mystical phenomena has this characteristic: it’s kind of impressive, but it doesn’t help anyone, really. It’s just a distraction, a show. Cheap tricks.

Holy mystical phenomena has this characteristic as well. St. Teresa of Avila writes about many of the charisms.

She also strongly states that caution is warranted.

 

[guanophore]

What is disturbing, and this is a direction that the Chrismatic has gone only in more recent years of it’s short history is the idea that that to truely have an experiance with God that is has to be through what is call baptized in the Spirit.

I dont’ see any direction of this kind. In fact, I see the opposite. This concept is not found anywhere in any Church teaching, or any writings by Catholic Charismatic authors.

It is rampant in Pentecostal Protestant circles, but I dont think we should be taking cues or “direction” from our separated brethren. I am glad they are all jazzed up about Jesus, but they are not in communion with the successors of the Apostles, and they are outside the authority appointed by God.

 Then through this procress an individual is given certain charisms. It has almost come in some circles that I have seen as having to be done in addtition to the sacraments of baptism and confirmation which deagrates the sacraments.

Such “circles” then, are poorly catechized. It is true that one must be willing to have a personal experience with God to be open to the Charisms. I am not sure that it can be characterized as a “process”. Although I realize that being open to the Spirit’s movement in one’s life can be progressive, all the gifts of the HS are sealed within the believer at baptism. What might be a process is opening and learning to use those gifts that have been given. Most Catholics don’t recognize them, and many dont’ believe they were given any.

Another Sacrament I have seen “degraded” is the Annointing of the Sick. There have been some laypeople that annoint people with oil and pray over them, and do not distinguish these personal prayers from the Sacramental annointing with oil for the Sick. It was so bad in this area the bishop had to forbid the use of blessed oil. He encourages prayer over one another, but must distinguish this from sacramental prayer.

I have personally faces this, and when I shared that theolgical opposition to the practice, I was told that the devil was keeping me from understanding. This  I found could be harmful, particular to those who do not proper catichitical training, which sadly are the case of many Catholics.

Yes. There is much catechesis that is needed. Some people that receive the gifts get so full of joy and enthusiasm about their newfound surge of faith that they go off half cocked. I am sorry that this happened to you, but I hope you will continue to speak about it, so that people can be educated about how wrong it is.

There needs to be an examination of the movement. Many people believe they have recieved special charisms, which they have not and take great offens if they are told they are error.  It leads them to take actions or refuse to do things to which valid church authority instructs.

Yes, there is much pastoral work that needs to be done. It is the duty of the priests to help the people identify and use their gifts appropriately, but some of them have little or no experience in doing so.

There are positive aspects, as it does bring, often time previous lost souls to Christ by their evangelization. This is indeed a very good thing.

It was a very good thing for me.

 

[vardaquinn]

St. Teresa of Avila comes close to encouraging speaking in tongues and prophesying in her work, “Interior Castle?” Please tell me where, in this book, where she says this. I’m familiar with this book.

Well, I can’t point you to one specific place where she talks about prophecy, but you’ll actually find a lot more about prophecy in the giant spiritual writers like her (and St. John of the Cross) than tongues. I just haven’t read them very extensively to quote what they specifically say about it.

But here, which I believe is Interior Castle, but maybe I’m mixing it up (maybe her autobiography, if it isn’t Interior Castle) she says:

“In the midst of these experiences that are both painful and delightful together, our Lord sometimes gives the soul feelings of jubilation and a strange prayer it doesn’t understand… What I am saying seems like gibberish, but certainly the experience takes place in this way,** for the joy is so excessive the soul wouldn’t want to enjoy it alone but wants to tell everyone about it so that they might help this soul praise our Lord**. All its activity is directed to this praise. Oh, how many festivals and demonstrations the soul would organize if it could that all might know its joy!… The devil cannot give this experience, because there is so much interior joy in the very intimate part of the soul and so much peace; and all the happiness stirs the soul to praise of the Lord.”

I’ll get back to you with more!

 

[vardaquinn]

St. Teresa of Avila comes close to encouraging speaking in tongues and prophesying in her work, “Interior Castle?” Please tell me where, in this book, where she says this. I’m familiar with this book.

This is a good article on St. John of the Cross and the charismatic gifts. renewalministries.net/files/freeliterature/Char_Cont…pdf

 

[vardaquinn]

Thanks for the recommendation but I’m confused. I thought I asked you for an unbiased source for the claim that JPII spoke in tongues. Ralph Martin is hardly unbiased source. Maybe something like a statement from JPII himself or a source from someone other than an influential person in the renewal.

I understand your desire for something more unbiased. Ralph Martin though would be a complete fraud if he was directly lying there, and would be absolutely contradicting everything he’s been doing in life, and all his writing. He seems a very very unlikely person to outright lie about that, especially when there really would be no need to. Benny Hinn said that same thing when he met Bl. Pope John Paul II, but he’s really biased.

Well, there’s some things Bl. Pope John Paul II said that might indicate that. I’m sure there are places where has mentions more specifically, but I haven’t read them.

“This is my first meeting with you, Catholic charismatics . . . I have always belonged to this renewal in the Holy Spirit. . . . I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action.”

Later he said: “This was my own spiritual initiation, so I can understand all these charisms. They are all part of the richness of the Lord. I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action.”

(Vatican City, December 11, 1979).

He claims that he has always belonged to this renewal in the Holy Spirit, and can understand all these charisms. Seeing as tongues is so closely associated with the CCR, it seems he might be implying from this that he has the gift of tongues himself. Of course, though, that’s not conclusive.

 

[guanophore]

St. Teresa of Avila comes close to encouraging speaking in tongues and prophesying in her work, “Interior Castle?” Please tell me where, in this book, where she says this. I’m familiar with this book.

This is a very good read, though she uses unfamiliar language, so it is difficult sometimes to understand what she is talking about. Basically she writes the stages of contempletive prayer,and how a soul passes through them as they advance in depth of spirituality. She mentions many of the charismatic gifts, but does so incidentally.

St. Teresa of Avila is a Doctor of the Church and wrote several books, directed toward the sisters under her care, to give them guidance. She was a nun in 16th century Spain, and a close friend of St. John of the Cross, another Doctor of the Church who writes about mystical experiences. In Interior Castle She described the gift of tongues in chapter 6, sections 11 and 15, she writes:

"Amongst these favours, at once painful and pleasant, Our Lord sometimes causes in the soul a certain jubilation and a strange and mysterious kind of prayer. If He bestows this grace on you, praise Him fervently for it; I describe it so that you may know that it is something real. I believe that the faculties of the soul are closely united to God but that He leaves them at liberty to rejoice in their happiness together with the senses, although they do not know what they are enjoying nor how they do so. This may sound nonsense but it really happens.

May His Majesty often grant us this kind of prayer which is most safe and beneficial; we cannot acquire it for ourselves as it is quite supernatural. Sometimes it lasts for a whole day and the soul is like one inebriated, although not deprived of the senses; Compare with this what has been said in the fourth chapter of this Mansion, nor like a person afflicted with melancholia, Melancholia here as elsewhere means hysteria. in which, though the reason is not entirely lost, the imagination continually dwells on some subject which possesses it and from which it cannot be freed. These are coarse comparisons to make in connection with such a precious gift, yet nothing else occurs to my mind. In this state of prayer a person is rendered by this jubilee so forgetful of self and everything else that she can neither think nor speak of anything but praising God, to which her joy prompts her. Let us all of us join her, my daughters, for why should we wish to be wiser than she? What can make us happier? And may all creatures unite their praises with ours for ever and ever. Amen, amen, amen!"

 

[guanophore]

Well, I can’t point you to one specific place where she talks about prophecy, but you’ll actually find a lot more about prophecy in the giant spiritual writers like her (and St. John of the Cross) than tongues.

Actually the entire work is an example of the gift of prophesy.

I have been studying this work as part of the literature review for my dissertation. I stubled across a passage about “resting in the Spirit” also.

She writes about “locutions” (hearing the voice of God) and “ecstasies”, but it is not always clear what she is describing. There are several passages about being so enraptured one is unaware of their surroundings, which is what people who are “slain in the Spirit” describe.

 

[vardaquinn]

Actually the entire work is an example of the gift of prophesy.

I have been studying this work as part of the literature review for my dissertation. I stubled across a passage about “resting in the Spirit” also.

She writes about “locutions” (hearing the voice of God) and “ecstasies”, but it is not always clear what she is describing. There are several passages about being so enraptured one is unaware of their surroundings, which is what people who are “slain in the Spirit” describe.

Thank you! And as well for the St. Teresa post as well. I am recently falling in love with Carmelite spirituality.

St. John of the Cross is going off of the Song of Songs too, which has a lot of examples of something rather like “resting in the Spirit”. The Beloved falling asleep in the Lover.

 

[Denise1957]

Well, I can’t point you to one specific place where she talks about prophecy, but you’ll actually find a lot more about prophecy in the giant spiritual writers like her (and St. John of the Cross) than tongues. I just haven’t read them very extensively to quote what they specifically say about it.

But here, which I believe is Interior Castle, but maybe I’m mixing it up (maybe her autobiography, if it isn’t Interior Castle) she says:

“In the midst of these experiences that are both painful and delightful together, our Lord sometimes gives the soul feelings of jubilation and a strange prayer it doesn’t understand… What I am saying seems like gibberish, but certainly the experience takes place in this way,** for the joy is so excessive the soul wouldn’t want to enjoy it alone but wants to tell everyone about it so that they might help this soul praise our Lord**. All its activity is directed to this praise. Oh, how many festivals and demonstrations the soul would organize if it could that all might know its joy!… The devil cannot give this experience, because there is so much interior joy in the very intimate part of the soul and so much peace; and all the happiness stirs the soul to praise of the Lord.”

I’ll get back to you with more!

Thanks for finding the quote. While I can’t find the quote in Interior Castle; it could still be there. It looks like St.Theresa’s writing style, and sounds like something she’d write. When she mentions the word, ‘gibberish’ above, though, I don’t equate its use in the sentence as having to do with speaking in tongues. You may disagree, and that’s okay. Notice, too, that she does not refer or attribute what she’s describing to the Holy Ghost at all, but only to Our Lord.