Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

[TrueLight]

I did not mean anything about “trads”. I am simply saying that, if a person attends a prayer meeting with a closed heart and mind, what they get out of it will be limited. I think this principle applies to pretty much everything in life, don’t you?

Graces are received according to the disposition of the recipient.

Not a small amount of the distrust of prayer groups seems to come from the lack of structure. They are most often led by laypersons, and if you read this thread, you will find examples of events that occurred at meetings that were not “validated” by a member of the Apostolic Succession. There is often a great deal of room for spontaneous expressions at prayer meetings, quite opposite of the Liturgy, which his very structured in participant response.

That doesn’t explain what you meant by fears. You’re backpedaling.

Don’t get me wrong. I understand being open to the Holy Spirit. My dear grandma was

Pentecostal along with 95 % of my relatives. So I was often in that environment.

My major issues are the implications I have seen in this thread that those who don’t seek gifts like tongues are somehow lacking. And also the concern that some seek signs, wonders and ecstasies, against which the church fathers often warned us.

I do understand however that your view is the minority view in this subforum and we have not always been charitable.

 

[guanophore]

Okay. You said Traditional Catholics. But since I’m on my iPhone, I abbreviated.

Lest I offend any of my beloved albeit anti-charismatic siblings, let me state that my dialogues on this portion of CAF seem to indicate that one reason very Traditional Catholics do not feel any need or inclination for the CCR is that they feel that their spiritual needs are fully met already with their traditional forms of worship. They appear to leave their devotions and Liturgy without the feeling that something is missing. For that reason, they don’t appear to have any desire to seek a prayer meeting outside of the Mass. I don’t know about attending Bible study, as no one here has mentioned it, but charismatics love to read, study, and share scripture, which is not appropriate during Mass or structured spiritual activities.

For the record (I have said this before, but will again) I do not believe that the CCR is for everyone, nor do I believe a person who does not desire to participate is an less open to the HS or to living the fullness of the Christian life.

The reason I say I would not encourage most Traditionals to attend anything CCR is because of the negative bias toward it. It does not seem as though it would be life giving for the participant, or for the group.

 

[TrueLight]

Lest I offend any of my beloved albeit anti-charismatic siblings, let me state that my dialogues on this portion of CAF seem to indicate that one reason very Traditional Catholics do not feel any need or inclination for the CCR is that they feel that their spiritual needs are fully met already with their traditional forms of worship. They appear to leave their devotions and Liturgy without the feeling that something is missing. For that reason, they don’t appear to have any desire to seek a prayer meeting outside of the Mass. I don’t know about attending Bible study, as no one here has mentioned it, but charismatics love to read, study, and share scripture, which is not appropriate during Mass or structured spiritual activities.

For the record (I have said this before, but will again) I do not believe that the CCR is for everyone, nor do I believe a person who does not desire to participate is an less open to

the HS or to living the fullness of the Christian life.

The reason I say I would not encourage most Traditionals to attend anything CCR is because of the negative bias toward it. It does not seem as though it would be life giving for the participant, or for the group.

If you really feel this way,

 

[TimothyH]

They appear to leave their devotions and Liturgy without the feeling that something is missing. For that reason, they don’t appear to have any desire to seek a prayer meeting outside of the Mass. I don’t know about attending Bible study, as no one here has mentioned it, but charismatics love to read, study, and share scripture, which is not appropriate during Mass or structured spiritual activities.

I’ve stayed out of this thread for a variety of reasons but will just stick my nose in here to offer an observation.

Your post mentions how many things appear. We have to be careful here, becasue our vision is limited. We don’t always see what other people do. We see one aspect of their faith and think we understand them. That isn’t always the case.

Americans are very good at that, stereotyping. We see a picture of a guy in traditional tribal clothing holding a spear and we think we know everything there is to know about the entire continent of Africa. I went to my dentist a few months ago. He was kind enough to give me an evening appointment ouside of his usual hours. When I got there he was jamming in his office with an electric guitar and a giant amplifier, so loud that he couldn’t hear me knocking on the door. He finally came out with a big smile, lab coat on and Gibson Flying-V around his neck. One of his exam rooms was actually a music room with different kinds of instruments from what you would expect at a dentist office. Apearances are not always what they seem. We have to be careful to avoid assumptions about other people’s faith and life in general based only on appearances. Often times it is like an iceberg - the bulk of it is not visible.

I facilitate a structured bible study in my home for myself and five other men. We do the study but we pray, share scripture, support each other and do all those things your post mentions. I could give many more examples from my parish alone bbut won’t beat it over the head.

I don’t mean to lecture. That’s not what I am trying to do. I just want to offer that just because it isn’t overt, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

-Tim-

 

[ltwin]

That’s a good comment to make TimothyH. It seems that on both sides of this issue, it is all to easy to make assumptions about a person’s faith or priorities based on whether they are “charismatic” or “traditional.” We need to listen to each other more and not automatically assume the worst.

 

[jmj1984]

It is interesting to hear what Fr Chad Ripperger, FSSP, PHD, Professor of Dogmatic and Moral Theology and Philosphy at Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary, says on the subject.At 23 mins 20 seconds in, in a talk he is giving, he states that he knows of several cases where those who were prayed over by charasmatics became demonically oppressed or obsessed and thus to stay away from them at all costs. You can listen to the talk here sensustraditionis.org/webaudio/SpiritualTheology/class7.mp3

Note: Fr Chad Ripperger asks that those who listen to the resources he provides to donate a $1, pray a decade of the holy rosary or perform some penance for his intentions, he calls it ‘penanceware’ And yes its worth it, the resources are excellent, though thats sidetracking a little.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

It is interesting to hear what Fr Chad Ripperger, FSSP, PHD, Professor of Dogmatic and Moral Theology and Philosphy at Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary, says on the subject.At 23 mins 20 seconds in, in a talk he is giving, he states that he knows of several cases where those who were prayed over by charasmatics became demonically oppressed or obsessed and thus to stay away from them at all costs. You can listen to the talk here sensustraditionis.org/webaudio/SpiritualTheology/class7.mp3
jmj1984;8466768:

Following that logic one could also argue that individual Catholics themselves have at times become possessed, therefore it is best to avoid the Catholic Church.

Fr. Ripperger, although certainly a knowledgeable and scholarly man, is not the final authority on the Charismatic Renewal. As has been pointed out many times on this rather long thread, the Renewal has the support of the Vatican and has also been given appropriate limits by the Vatican. Some people benefit spiritually from it, others do not. But it is certainly not a demonic movement by any stretch of the means.

 

[jmj1984]

Following that logic one could also argue that individual Catholics themselves have at times become possessed, therefore it is best to avoid the Catholic Church.

Fr. Ripperger, although certainly a knowledgeable and scholarly man, is not the final authority on the Charismatic Renewal. As has been pointed out many times on this rather long thread, the Renewal has the support of the Vatican and has also been given appropriate limits by the Vatican. Some people benefit spiritually from it, others do not. But it is certainly not a demonic movement by any stretch of the means.

You clearly didn’t listen to the link, Fr Ripperger states that he knows of several cases where these people become demonically oppressed and obssessed (I did not say possessed) because charasmatics had prayed over them. Your analogy therefore fails. The only way in fact to modify it would be to say that catholics have become possessed when an orthodox catholics prays an orthodox prayer over them, this is rash, scandalous and offensive to pious ears

The moral of this is to read the sources someones posts before replying to them so that you don’t misrepresent or misunderstand peoples views.

Nor did anyone say that Fr Ripperger was the final authority, it was merely an interesting comment from a respected and well educated traditional priest.

 

[guanophore]

I myself have shied away from it, but that had more to do with the people who I knew were the ones going to them, as they tended to belittle the Pope and several of the Church’s doctrines/dogmas, and were also into such things like centering prayer and reiki. In saying this, I am not saying that the Charismatic Movement consists of this, just that the only people I know associated with it in some fashion were not the type of people I wanted to spend much time with.

I am sorry to hear this. Yes, this sounds like a good group for every faithful Catholic to avoid. They should not be permitted to be held in the parish property.

 

[guanophore]

My major issues are the implications I have seen in this thread that those who don’t seek gifts like tongues are somehow lacking. And also the concern that some seek signs, wonders and ecstasies, against which the church fathers often warned us.

Both of these concerns are valid, and represent erors. God seals the gifts of the HS into each believe at baptism. A person has access though this sacrament to every charism they will need until they go home to heaven. Charismaticism is a particular form of expession of the gifts that is not necessary. I do agree there are people (at least one on the thread) that believe it is mandatory for everyone, but that is not what is taught in the CCR.

The concern about seeking gifts and ecstasies is also valid, and you are rigth, strictly warned about by the saints and doctors of the church. There are some people that do chase after these things, but it is spiritually shallow and immature.

I do understand however that your view is the minority view in this subforum and we have not always been charitable.

I knew when I waded in here that it was not a very supportive crowd.

I have learned a lot.

One of the “fears” I have learned about here on CAF has to do with the inner life. People are afraid to find out what is inside themselves. One area relates to emotions. People who are involved in CCR are more open to emotions, and if a person has stifled their feelings, or does not want to deal with their emotions they will sometimes oppose the CCR out of fear.

 

[ClayPots47]

It is interesting to hear what Fr Chad Ripperger, FSSP, PHD, Professor of Dogmatic and Moral Theology and Philosphy at Our Lady of Guadalupe Seminary, says on the subject.At 23 mins 20 seconds in, in a talk he is giving, he states that he knows of several cases where those who were prayed over by charasmatics became demonically oppressed or obsessed and thus to stay away from them at all costs. You can listen to the talk here (snip link).

1. It says right on the audio page, “WARNING: Do not hardlink these media files from your website. Instead, please direct people to this page.” Did you miss that? Hotlinking is never okay on the internet, people on dial-up can have their PC freeze as a result (been there, done that, many moons ago when I was using dial-up on first a 28.8kbs then a 56kbs modem, not fun to deal with). Hotlinking/hardlinking also bypasses the information regarding penanceware, even if you did put that in your post.
2. This has been posted before in previous threads, most of us have already seen it. And from what I recall from it’s previous posting, is that some responded with rebuttals, quoting priests in the CCR who had plenty of statistics of healings from intercessory prayer of those in the CCR. I’m willing to bet that if those were actual cases of oppression or obsession, they were very rare.
3. What was that old saying in Statistics class? The one that goes, “correlation does not imply causation”? The only thing stating that “he knows of several cases” means, is that a) It’s hearsay, and b) Some cases may exist in which a person became demonically oppressed or obsessed. It’s possibly more likely that these people were already obsessed/oppressed, and the demonic presence became manifest during intercessory prayer. It’s time to then get a priest involved, with deliverance prayer. To avoid all intercessory prayer offered by those in the CCR, because a handful might have become oppressed/obsessed, is to stifle the Spirit’s actions through such prayer. It is incorrect to say that all intercessory CCR prayer should be avoided because one could become oppressed/obsessed, since a few have become oppressed/obsessed. I repeat, “correlation does not imply causation.”

 

[guanophore]

1. What was that old saying in Statistics class? The one that goes, “correlation does not imply causation”? The only thing stating that “he knows of several cases” means, is that a) It’s hearsay, and b) Some cases may exist in which a person became demonically oppressed or obsessed. It’s possibly more likely that these people were already obsessed/oppressed, and the demonic presence became manifest during intercessory prayer. It’s time to then get a priest involved, with deliverance prayer. To avoid all intercessory prayer offered by those in the CCR, because a handful might have become oppressed/obsessed, is to stifle the Spirit’s actions through such prayer. ** It is incorrect to say that all intercessory CCR prayer should be avoided** because one could become oppressed/obsessed, since a few have become oppressed/obsessed. I repeat, “correlation does not imply causation.”

There are some Traditionalists that do not believe that lay people should be praying with/for one another at all, and that the only “laying on of hands” must be done by an ordained person, otherwise, it is out of order.

Apparently it is ok to hold hands while saying grace at the table, or perhaps after the end of a Rosary, but to hold hands while praying with a person asking for healing is not?

 

[AntiqueCatholic]

That could be the nub of it: laymen having a go a mysticism. Like, don’t we have clergy for that?

How about this for an idea:

Laypeople didn’t manifest this sort of phenomena for 000’s of years, not because the hierarchial ol’ Church snuffed it out but because it arose now and again, tended to result in silly, diabolic, cultic or charlatanic behaviour, so it wasn’t encouraged.

Hence Traditionalists being wary of it.

“Soooo, you say the Holy Spirit has given you the gift of healing? Hmmm, I’m still not going to let you lay hands on me, because you’re an amateur, I’ve only got your word for it, it could be diabolic and it’s all terribly Protestant Tent Revival in how it appears”

 

[asd72]

Guanophone,

From what I have read the ‘Spirit of Life’ seminars seem the most common way to get an introduction to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Do you have experience with this?

I do feel somewhat that my conversion is in my head, but hasn’t fully entered my heart.

 

[guanophore]

That could be the nub of it: laymen having a go a mysticism. Like, don’t we have clergy for that?

What are you talking about!? Are you saying only clergy members should be mystics? That is absurd. Anyone can be called to a mystical form of spirituality. It more often gets a response by religious, because they are already committed to a life of prayer.

Every human being is capable of mystical experience. It is part of our human makeup- God designed us with this capacity.

How about this for an idea:

Laypeople didn’t manifest this sort of phenomena for 000’s of years, not because the hierarchial ol’ Church snuffed it out but because it arose now and again, tended to result in silly, diabolic, cultic or charlatanic behaviour, so it wasn’t encouraged.

I can’t argue with that.

Hence Traditionalists being wary of it.

Understandibly.

“Soooo, you say the Holy Spirit has given you the gift of healing? Hmmm, I’m still not going to let you lay hands on me, because you’re an amateur, I’ve only got your word for it, it could be diabolic and it’s all terribly Protestant Tent Revival in how it appears”

I don’t recall offering to do so. It would be improper to pray with someone who did not request it, and was opposed to it.

 

[guanophore]

Guanophone,

From what I have read the ‘Spirit of Life’ seminars seem the most common way to get an introduction to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. Do you have experience with this?

I do feel somewhat that my conversion is in my head, but hasn’t fully entered my heart.

Yes, I have participated in many Life in the Spirit Seminars. If search the web you can find one near you, or contact your diocese and they can direct you.

 

[asd72]

Yes, I have participated in many Life in the Spirit Seminars. If search the web you can find one near you, or contact your diocese and they can direct you.

Thank you. I will speak to my Priest about it and see what I can find.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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