Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

[Melchior_1]

So this Protestant group who produces the booklet decided to make a Catholic version?

Or maybe some Catholics decided that “hey, we can use this but make it much better by utilizing the Sacraments and devotional practices? And having endorsements from the Supreme Pontiff?”

Quote:

“Have you ever considered attending one?”

Oh, heck no! I’m a Catholic, and as such have no need of such foolishness.

I guess that makes me less of a Catholic than you, eh? Or at least a more foolish one. Also among the foolish Catholics are the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, who approved a Society of Apostolic Life being formed who are charismatic.

And this very website, who has contributors who are charismatic as well.

 

[guanophore]

I think you are being genuine here but you might be missing an important point.

IF the charismatic movement does not go after these special manifestations, then the movement is actually pretty Catholic and there is nothing objectionable in it.

I strongly urge you to read the thread, passer_by. There is a plethora of objections, the notion that particpants are “obsessed with seeking gifts” only being one of the many. Maybe you would find no objection if you learned that participants are not “going after special manifestations”, but there are others who still object on other grounds. One of those is the post just above by Denise1957 that condemns associations with Protestants. There are many traditional Catholics that believe praying with Protesants or treating them as brothers and sisters in Christ is false ecumenism, and strictly forbidden by the Church. This position has nothing to do with the presence of any charisms.

You state that people who have been to prayer meetings would know the truth.

No, I stated nothing of the kind. I said that people who have not been to meetings tend to have more misconceptions about the nature of them. There are some on this thread who have attended meetings, and continue to impoose their prejudices on the events that occur there.

Sure, but it depends on which prayer meeting you attend and who runs it. Some of the prayer meetings do indeed seek these special manifestations of the gifts. That is actually warned against by the Church and many of its saints.

Yes.
passer_by;8454509:

So what I mean to say is that while the Church has approved the idea of CCR, it is NOT some kind of blanket approval for every CCR movement. Some of them do contain problematic practices. Some of them might start to tend toward problematic practices later on.

Without question. I am aware of entire prayer groups that have left the church for these reasons.

It is this that most 'traditionalist' fear against. We have a movement that contains a lot of tendency for abuse. We also have our traditional prayer. So the question becomes, why don't we just teach our young people our traditional prayers and worship instead of putting them in a situation where they could go astray?

I agree. How do you recommend that this be done?

The church has done its part by saying the idea behind CCR is true and valid. After all, there is nothing wrong with praying to the Holy Spirit or if the gifts just happen to manifest themselves.
What people object against are those who use this approval to further specific CCR movements themselves which are not very Catholic anymore and looks a lot like Pentecostal.

Yes, appropriately so.

 

[guanophore]

Quote:

“Have you ever considered attending one?”

Oh, heck no! I’m a Catholic, and as such have no need of such foolishness.

You would certainly be in a better position to make criticisms about whether doctrinal statements are being made if you had some first hand experience, don’t you think?

 

[Melchior_1]

I find this after a quick search online. It gives a nice overview of the CCR. To boot, it has a Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.

brendancase.com/uploads/Key_to_the_Charismatic_Renewal.pdf

 

[Denise1957]

The Word of God Catholic Community in Ann Arbor is under the Pontifical Council for the Laity.

They don’t receive “protestant” groups.

The new version/ update brings more concentration for Catholics on the relationship of the Life in the Spirit with the Sacramental life.The Life in the Spirit Seminars were developed by the Word of God Community in Ann Arbor, Michigan in the early 1970s. They have been offered to millions of Catholics from a variety of spiritual backgrounds and countries. Their focus is a vital appreciation of the Scriptural proclamation, “Jesus Christ is Lord.”

The New Life in the Spirit Seminars: Team Manual is a suitable evangelistic tool to introduce people to a fuller experience of life in the Spirit. It explores the intimate relationship between “baptism in the Holy Spirit” and the sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation and Eucharist. It brings together important insights from Fanning the Flame: What does Baptism in the Holy Spirit Have to Do with Christian Initiation?, the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the restoration of the RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults). The revision of the manual was first designed to serve the Diocese of Rockville Centre, New York and then offered nationally.

As all lay movements, revisions, reforms, and updates have been necessary to keep the teaching close to the Church.

So they revised so that it actually had something to do with Catholicism instead of being generic (until 2006) so that it would appeal to Protestants? Interesting. Surely you can see, though, how the previous booklet could be mistaken for being Protestant?

More information from website about the activities of the Life in the Spirit seminars:

“People are instructed to open their mouths and start babbling like babies…”
And…“The word ‘empowerment’ is used often. Type ‘empowerment’ in a search engine - a surprisingly large number of un-Godly stuff will come up. Yet they teach it at the Life in the Spirit seminar that Baptism in the Spirit results in empowerment. They make promises of some dynamic, immediate God power, slaying in the Spirit, speaking in tongues type of empowerment…”

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/life-in-spirit-seminar.html

 

[passer_by]

I strongly urge you to read the thread, passer_by. There is a plethora of objections, the notion that particpants are “obsessed with seeking gifts” only being one of the many. Maybe you would find no objection if you learned that participants are not “going after special manifestations”, but there are others who still object on other grounds. One of those is the post just above by Denise1957 that condemns associations with Protestants. There are many traditional Catholics that believe praying with Protesants or treating them as brothers and sisters in Christ is false ecumenism, and strictly forbidden by the Church. This position has nothing to do with the presence of any charisms.

Ok I think this is a different issue that stems from Mortalium Animos.

Mortalium Animos does warn against interfaith prayer of this kind. But the ban presented is a disciplinary ban. So while the dangers outlined in Mortalium Animos are certainly valid even today, the ban is not because the church reversed it. The church can do that because disciplinary matters are NOT irreformable.

Now the danger however is true. So traditional Catholics can express their concern and it might be true that these dangers are realized today as a result of the movements. To be honest, in my personal experience, they have been realized pretty well. I also meet a lot of ex-Catholics who turned Protestant because they liked their prayer because it gave them great experiences of the Spirit. Then there are also those who think that now its ok to be Protestant or Catholic and they are both valid.

These people are of course forgetting that if the experiences take them away from the church, the experiences are most likely not from the Holy Spirit. But this decision can only be arrived at if one is already well catechized in the faith. So we have a bit of a problem. We have a movement meant to catechize Catholics. But at the same time, the movement requires the person to be well catechized to prevent them from going over board to error.

I agree. How do you recommend that this be done?

Hold normal prayer services without mingling with Protestants. In other words, keep ecumenical prayer and catechizing/prayer services for the Holy Spirit separated.

Don’t try to get two birds in one stone. We could end up loosing both birds as we already have with most of our young today.

 

[Melchior_1]

So they revised so that it actually had something to do with Catholicism instead of being generic (until 2006) so that it would appeal to Protestants? Interesting. Surely you can see, though, how the previous booklet could be mistaken for being Protestant?

More information from website about the activities of the Life in the Spirit seminars:

“People are instructed to open their mouths and start babbling like babies…”
And…“The word ‘empowerment’ is used often. Type ‘empowerment’ in a search engine - a surprisingly large number of un-Godly stuff will come up. Yet they teach it at the Life in the Spirit seminar that Baptism in the Spirit results in empowerment. They make promises of some dynamic, immediate God power, slaying in the Spirit, speaking in tongues type of empowerment…”

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/life-in-spirit-seminar.html

Denise, do you mind terribly providing a source from a slightly more credible location (especially considering the CCR isn’t heresy)? For example, I provided a PDF that has a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur.

 

[Denise1957]

Denise, do you mind terribly providing a source from a slightly more credible location (especially considering the CCR isn’t heresy)? For example, I provided a PDF that has a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur.

I didn’t say that the CCR contains heresy. The website’s author is a former charismatic who was involved in CCR for ten years. She seems genuine to me. I’m assuming that she has first-hand experiences with these seminars. The topic I’m addressing is Life in the Spirit seminars. I’m not interested in addressing the bigger picture on this one.

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/life-in-spirit-seminar.html

 

[guanophore]

So they revised so that it actually had something to do with Catholicism instead of being generic (until 2006) so that it would appeal to Protestants? Interesting.

Your prejudice is leaking out again, Denise. There is nothing “uncatholic” about the charisms of the Holy Spirit. They were given to the Catholic Church on her birthday, and belong to her birthright. The fact that Protestants have taken the birthright of the Catholic Church (including the Scriptures, the Eucharist, and the charisms) and misused them do not make them any less Catholic. The Bible is a Catholic book. No amount of twisting it’s contents can make it 'generic" in nature.

Surely you can see, though, how the previous booklet could be mistaken for being Protestant?

Absolutely. The best reason for revision.

More information from website about the activities of the Life in the Spirit seminars:

Actually, the reference you gave is from an anti-charismatic site…

“People are instructed to open their mouths and start babbling like babies…”

I would be interested to see where this is published.

And…"The word ‘empowerment’ is used often. Type ‘empowerment’ in a search engine - a surprisingly large number of un-Godly stuff will come up.

I am not claiming that God will not speak through the lips of the unwilling, because obviously he can speak through the mouth of a donkey. But this particular gift requires the participation of the recipient. I have no doubt that the gift of tongues sounds like “babbling” to many people. The New Testament accounts this.

Yes, of course there are many ungodly forms of empowerment. Human nature is always seeking empowerment. Unfortunately, most humans do not seek it by being animated by the Holy Spirit. It was the empowerment that came upon the Apostles at Pentecost that was sought by the first Catholics to have the experiences at Duquesne, and that is still sought by those of us who came along later. We do not want to be cowering in a room, afraid, but able to speak God’s wonders in the marketplace.

Yet they teach it at the Life in the Spirit seminar that Baptism in the Spirit results in empowerment.

You might want to give Acts. 2 a quick read.

They make promises of some dymanic, immediate God power, slaying in the Spirit, speaking in tongues type of empowerment…"

God can empower His people however He sees fit. Of course our expression of HIm in our world is to be “dynamic”. This is the basis for the Gk word. It is where we get the word “dynamite”. Our expression of Him in the world is to be an explosive and powerful witness for the Gospel, not the lukewarm expression that is possessed by most American Catholics.

God’s power is, and can be, “immediate” in our lives. This is what it means to walk by the Spirit, and not fulfill the desires of the flesh.

 

[Denise1957]

More information on what occurs at Life in the Spirit seminars:

“There is undue emphasis on tongues. Otherwise why instruct the participants to say “I ask you to baptize me in the Holy Spirit and give me the gift of tongues.”
Why are they told…“If you are unwilling to receive the gift of tongues, the Holy Spirit will not be free to work in you.”
Why is acceptance of this “gift” should be a requisite for the free operation of the Holy Spirit in the individual?”

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/life-in-spirit-seminar.html

 

[guanophore]

I also meet a lot of ex-Catholics who turned Protestant because they liked their prayer because it gave them great experiences of the Spirit. Then there are also those who think that now its ok to be Protestant or Catholic and they are both valid.

This is a sad fact. I have witnessed many dear brothers and sisters who were part of my own faith formation fall from the faith. Heartbreaking.

These people are of course forgetting that if the experiences take them away from the church, the experiences are most likely not from the Holy Spirit.

I don’t think this relates to the experiences necessarily. I think it has to do with one’s attitude toward them, and as you point out below, lack of catechesis. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about the misuse of the charisms, he never implied they were not of God. He scolded them about their attitudes, and gave them better structure. He showed them priorities, which, when lost, are what results in apostasy.

But this decision can only be arrived at if one is already well catechized in the faith. So we have a bit of a problem. We have a movement meant to catechize Catholics. But at the same time, the movement requires the person to be well catechized to prevent them from going over board to error.

I can see what you are saying, but this is a false dilemma. None of the neophytes that received the gifts of the HS in the NT were catechized. It was a phenomena that accompanied the rites of initiation. What kept them safe from wandering, as does us today, is to be subject to the Church. They devoted themselves to the Apostolic prayers, their teachings, and their fellowship. Participants that remain close to the sacramental life of the Church will not fall into error. All those who have left the Church that I used to know in the CCR started by abandoning the Sacraments and the Teaching of of the Church, especially with regard to interpreting the Scriptures.

Hold normal prayer services without mingling with Protestants. In other words, keep ecumenical prayer and catechizing/prayer services for the Holy Spirit separated.

What is a “normal” prayer meeting? One of the reasons I started attending Protestant prayer meetings is because there WERE NO Catholic prayer meetings! Things have improved, but most of the parishes I visit don’t have a prayer meeting.

Since most of the “Catholics” in America are defacto protestants (rejecting the Teachings of the Church) called “cafeteria catholics” I don’t think it would be possible to have a prayer meeting that was not attended by a person who is in dissent against the Church. Some do so by ignorance, but many willfully. Evangelism must begin within the walls.

Don’t try to get two birds in one stone. We could end up loosing both birds as we already have with most of our young today.

I agree. We need to evangelize our own youth, and our own adults, then when they are catechized they can be properly equipped missionaries. Prior to the renewal, Lay missionary training was very rare.

 

[Melchior_1]

I didn’t say that the CCR contains heresy. The website’s author is a former charismatic who was involved in CCR for ten years. She seems genuine to me. I’m assuming that she has first-hand experiences with these seminars. The topic I’m addressing is Life in the Spirit seminars. I’m not interested in addressing the bigger picture on this one.

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/life-in-spirit-seminar.html

So the firsthand experiences of people such as myself, guanophore, and others mean less than a random person on the Internet who says the CCR is a heresy (when it actually isn’t)?

 

[guanophore]

I didn’t say that the CCR contains heresy. The website’s author is a former charismatic who was involved in CCR for ten years. She seems genuine to me. I’m assuming that she has first-hand experiences with these seminars. The topic I’m addressing is Life in the Spirit seminars. I’m not interested in addressing the bigger picture on this one.

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/life-in-spirit-seminar.html

Denise, read the link. It says “charismatic-heresy”. That should tell you something about the position of your source material. What we are asking for is that you give us writings from the CCR that support your, and her, assertions.

I agree, it is safe to assume she has “first hand experiences”, but so to Protestants have “first hand experiences” reading scripture. People’s conclusions about their experiences are filtered through their education (or lack of it) and their perceptions about what happened. I can “assume”, since the link says “charismatic-heresy” that her expereinces have led her to believe the CCR is heresy. I may be wrong, but thats how it looks. What evidence can you find in the LISS materials themselves that makes you think they are uncatholic?

Orthodoxy is not defined by those who depart from it.

 

[Denise1957]

further info and commentary on Life in the Spirit seminars:

“People are told that Baptism in the Spirit is the actualization of the gifts they receive at Baptism and Confirmation. This is not true. We receive sanctifying gifts at Baptism and they increase at Confirmation. But sanctifying gifts show up only with a deepening of spiritual life; they do not appear miraculously or simply because a charismatic laid his hands on a person. The gifts of Baptism and Confirmation are not the extraordinary gifts, so to claim that they can somehow morph into extraordinary graces via Spirit Baptism is illogical and absurd!”

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/life-in-spirit-seminar.html

 

[Melchior_1]

further info and commentary on Life in the Spirit seminars:

“People are told that Baptism in the Spirit is the actualization of the gifts they receive at Baptism and Confirmation. This is not true. We receive sanctifying gifts at Baptism and they increase at Confirmation. But sanctifying gifts show up only with a deepening of spiritual life; they do not appear miraculously or simply because a charismatic laid his hands on a person. The gifts of Baptism and Confirmation are not the extraordinary gifts, so to claim that they can somehow morph into extraordinary graces via Spirit Baptism is illogical and absurd!”

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/life-in-spirit-seminar.html

Denise, again, I’m going to respectfully ask you provide source from a credible site that doesn’t have an outright lie in the website URL.

 

[guanophore]

More information on what occurs at Life in the Spirit seminars:

“There is undue emphasis on tongues. Otherwise why instruct the participants to say “I ask you to baptize me in the Holy Spirit and give me the gift of tongues.”
Why are they told…“If you are unwilling to receive the gift of tongues, the Holy Spirit will not be free to work in you.”
Why is acceptance of this “gift” should be a requisite for the free operation of the Holy Spirit in the individual?”

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/life-in-spirit-seminar.html

Denise, I think it is a bit disingenuos for you to be gathering your information from a disgruntled former participant. This is the same as gleaning information about the Catholic Church from persons who have left it for Protestantism.

I think there have been undue emphasis on tongues. It is also true that a person who comes to God with an unwilling spirit will stifle what God wishes to offer. That is why I brought the former rhetorical question of “how much can a person refuse the Holy Spirit, and still be saved”. If a person approaches God with a preconceived notion of what they want, and don’t want, what they are willing, and what they are unwilling, God is certainly able to work within the confines of that stubborn heart. If he were not, most of us would not be walking with Him no.

But an attitude of yielding is that which was posessed by Mary. If we come saying"be it done to me according to your Word", without constraining what He has, then we are more likely to experience the fullness of His gifts. This is not to say that I agree with the statement. Clearly God does work with people who refuse some or all of His gifts.

It is not the refusal to accept the gift of tongues that is the impediment, but the arrogant insistence on being in control, instead of the HS. This attitude stifles the work of the Spirit whether one is in the CCR or not.

 

[Denise1957]

further quote and commentary from website regarding Life in the Spirit seminars:

"People are instructed to ask for extraordinary graces. St. Teresa in the “Interior Castle” warned not to seek after extraordinary graces: “You must never ask or desire Him to lead you by that road” because it shows a lack of humility and that it leaves the soul open to “great danger because the devil needs only to see a door left ajar to enter; third, “when a person has a great desire, he convinces himself he is seeing or hearing what he desires” She warned there are holy people who have never had extraordinary graces and that others had them who were not holy. Vatican ll “On the Church” A12 states that…“The extraordinary graces are not to be rashly asked for, nor should the fruits of apostolic works be presumptuously expected from them; but the judgement of their genuine character and the ordered exercise from them pertains to those who preside in the Church.” Jesus said much the same in Mt 7:22-23.”

 

[Protestant_Me]

Interesting, since the Holy Spirit is not given outside the church. The last thing we need is spiritual “fulfillment” from Protestants.

This to me sounds a little derogatory. Would you care to explain what you mean so it doesn’t sound so offensive?
Thanks.

 

[guanophore]

further quote and commentary from website regarding Life in the Spirit seminars:

"People are instructed to ask for extraordinary graces. St. Teresa in the “Interior Castle” warned not to seek after extraordinary graces: “You must never ask or desire Him to lead you by that road” because it shows a lack of humility and that it leaves the soul open to “great danger because the devil needs only to see a door left ajar to enter; third, “when a person has a great desire, he convinces himself he is seeing or hearing what he desires” She warned there are holy people who have never had extraordinary graces and that others had them who were not holy. Vatican ll “On the Church” A12 states that…“The extraordinary graces are not to be rashly asked for, nor should the fruits of apostolic works be presumptuously expected from them; but the judgement of their genuine character and the ordered exercise from them pertains to those who preside in the Church.” Jesus said much the same in Mt 7:22-23.”

Denise, it is against the forum rules to post quotes like this without a reference.

You have been asked not to use material from websites that contain outright lies in the url.

I understand your hostility against the CCR, but there is no need for you to boslter it using such methods.

St. Teresa is right, we should strive for the attitude of humility, and yielding to whatever God has for us, not get into our minds some certain trinket we want, and focus ourselves upon it. Nothing we ask of God should be done “rashly”, nor to Charismatics “rashly” seek the fullness of life in the Spirit in our lives. And of course, we must all be submitted to the authority of the Church. You might consider attending to this exhortation yourself, since you have now started violating forum rules, in addition to adopting a point of view that is contrary to that of the Church. MSGR. VINCENT M. WALSH notes in his booklet that the Church has taken the postion of Gamaliel on this issue. Can you not follow the lead of the Church?

There is no need for you to trash that with which you don’t agree, or don’t wish to participate. If it is not of God, it will fade away.

 

[Denise1957]

guanophore, please try to not let what I’ve posted here disturb your peace. I’m not trying to upset anyone - but it’s your choice to be upset about the opinion of one former charismatic’s experience with the Life in the Spirit seminar.