By that exact same line of reasoning the simple fact that Arianism was supported by the overwhelming majority of clerics in its day, including influential leaders, should be a point in it s favor as well.
Well, it would be speculation, but, Pope Liberius has been accused of such (although I reject this theory), also the Anti-Pope Felix II, fully embraced Arianism. I think the point is though, that the majority of Catholics and clergy had been mislead at other points in our history, and it was left to a remnant - whom had a orthodox opinion on the matter - to lead the faithful back to the true faith. (whether this is traditional Catholicism or those whom are charismatic - or maybe, a grey area in-between - remains to be seen)
I am not sure that it was such an obvious error during the era of the Nicene Councils, remember those whom held the orthodox position of the recent council were the minority for some time after said council.
I think it is obvious where the contradictions are vardaquinn, the question is, whether or not these extraordinary gifts should be sought after, and/or promulgated as the CCR has done. As to it being fully orthodox, I think this is obvious too, although, there are some things that may happen that are indeed orthodox, there are plenty of heterodox practices that the CCR has adopted form the protestant Pentecostals that is far and away anything from decisively Catholic orthodoxy. It is certainly not black and white, and it all needs to be addressed in an extraordinary and universal way. imho.
I think it would behoove you to read the thread. An Apostolic Society also has the same process, and these have been approved, as well as charismatic religious communities.
People are always in need of Reform, and the purpose of the Magesterium, among other things, is to keep the faithful on track. Therefore, all overhauls and reformations should be received with trust and gratitude by the flock.
The CCR does not promote “explicit seeking for signs”. There is a big difference between being open to, and yielding to the charisms of the Spirit, and “seeking for signs”.
Indeed they can, and should. You are right, a “movement” is not necessary. Many of us have found it helpful because when we were brought up Catholic we never learned there was such a thing as a novena to the HS, or about the charisms, or how to implement them in our daily lives. We learned these things through the Life in the Spirit seminars.
I am sorry to hear that this happened.
For what it is worth, Mike, I see your point, and I agree with it.
I apologize for I have indeed not read the entire thread. It would probably take me months to read through 900+ posts.
For sure.
It is here that I find some things confusing.
I don’t think this is entirely accurate, Varda. It is true that the movement of the HS is “as the wind blows”. However, the Holy See has taken all necessary actions to provide structure and authority over the CCR. It has been put under the direction of the Pontifical Council for the Laity, to whom any leaders in the movement are responsible. The Vatican has decreed the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services for organizing and forming leadership.
No, that was not what I agreed to at all. The charismatic gifts are not given to persons of great holiness, sanctity, or maturity. On the contrary, they are given to novices and those who are weak and immature in the faith.
I don’t “insist” on any such thing. My research shows me that the HS acted on lay persons in adoration before the Blessed Sacrament, praying that they might be open to the work of the HS in their lives (a novena was part of that preparation). They shared their experience, and other lay Catholics prayed, received charisms, and this continued to grow and spread until it reached international proportions. I believe this to be an answer to the prayer of Pope John XXIII for a “New Pentecost” in the Church. If the Spirit wishes to move this way upon His people, then I receive it. I can only conclude that the HS finds a “need” for it. That is way above my pay grade.
Through the Renewal I have learned:
I am not sure I understand. Are you saying the spirit was not moving in the church prior to this?I don’t “insist” on any such thing. My research shows me that the HS acted on lay persons in adoration before the Blessed Sacrament, praying that they might be open to the work of the HS in their lives (a novena was part of that preparation). They shared their experience, and other lay Catholics prayed, received charisms, and this continued to grow and spread until it reached international proportions. I believe this to be an answer to the prayer of Pope John XXIII for a “New Pentecost” in the Church. If the Spirit wishes to move this way upon His people, then I receive it. I can only conclude that the HS finds a “need” for it. That is way above my pay grade.
This is good. But what I am saying is that all of the things you listed above are things you would ideally be taught by your parents, Sunday school and Personal reading.
Not at all.
Do you realize that if you read the thread, or even any small part of it, you would know the answer to this?
Ideally.
No, and that was not meant to be an inclusive list of what I learned.
Actually, if you ever do read the thread, you will find that this is exactly the case.
No, I don’t think you are wrong. Most people object to their erroneous imaginings.
Yes, that misconception seems to be quite prevalent. It seems to be held by people who have not been to prayer meetings.It is appropriate to seek the Giver, and to be open and yielding to whatever He may bring to us.
No doubt about that.
Charismatic heresy. Clearly there’s no bias at all at that website. Someone also better tell the Pope he’s into heresy.
I think you are being genuine here but you might be missing an important point.
That is the whole point of having missionary spirituality, Denise, to reach out to those who have departed from the One Faith. Is there any document that is “too Catholic” to be used for evangelization? All the believers in these other ecclesial communities also extensively use that famous Catholic book called the “Bible”. They read and use this Catholic book, even though they come from many different backgrounds.
What doesn’t? The website? The book description? The LISS? If you are referring to the latter you are in error. It is intended to be used with the Catechism, so it does not repeat the doctrinal statements made there.
Quote:
The Word of God Catholic Community in Ann Arbor is under the Pontifical Council for the Laity.