Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

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vardaquinn said:
The Baltimore Catechism, although generally an amazing resource for information, does not have the same level of authority as papal encyclicals, dogmatic constitutions, and the official catechism. It is not wholly wrong in that statement, in showing that the reason the sign gifts became less common was that the Church became more widespread. However, the teachings of encylicals, constitutions and the Catechism contradict that it, saying that whether or not the extraordinary gifts ceased, they are for today and are in use today. You simply contradict the reality: the extraordinary gifts are in use today.
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Dear vardaquinn,

Cordial greetings and hope all is well, dear friend. Thankyou for the above.

Can you kindly answer the following two questions please:

Can you point us to any official pronouncement since VII that authoritatively declares that the faithful must eargerly embrace and accept the CCR as a genuine movement of God’s Holy Spirit in our times?

Are there any documents even on the level of the ordinary magisterium that the faithful are under an obligation to submit their will and be obedient to?

You have brought to our notice that there have been papal endorsements of the Renewal, but clearly papal endorsements do not amount to official approbation. It is customary for contemporary Catholics to ascribe “creeping infallibility” to unofficial pronouncements on a whole plethora of contentious issues to support their progressive world-view or/and the laxity that now sadly prevails in the Western Catholic Church.

Please demonstrate where those of us who reject the CCR and its erroneous claims are going against official and authoritative Church teaching. Is a man who sincerely believes that the extraordinary charismata (e.g. tongues) has long ago ceased and that the CCR is a bogus movement, guilty of uttering heresy?

This will be my final post this side of the weekend and probably for some while as we are relocating to anothe area next week. Therefore may I take this opportunity to wish you, and all contributors to this current thread, a jolly splendid weekend.

Blessings be upon you and may the peace of God be yours.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait:tiphat:

Pax
 
Can you point us to any official pronouncement since VII that authoritatively declares that the faithful must eargerly embrace and accept the CCR as a genuine movement of God’s Holy Spirit in our times?
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No, and there doesn’t need to be one. And I don’t say all the faithful must eagerly embrace the movement. That is not my position. I do argue that it is a genuine movement of the Holy spirit, but ultimately I don’t care if you approve it or don’t. I only care if you accept those matters which are at the heart of the movement - the baptism in the Spirit and the charisms (extraordinary and simple).
Is a man who sincerely believes that the extraordinary charismata (e.g. tongues) has long ago ceased and that the CCR is a bogus movement, guilty of uttering heresy?
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Yes, a man who sincerely believes that extraordinary charismata have long ago ceased and are not for this age is mistaken. 1. They are active in the world today and 2. the Church says otherwise. This is a matter of Church teaching. You’re entitled to your own opinion about the CCR, but the fact remains it either is a bogus movement or isn’t. Many leading officials in the Church think otherwise, and I think logically you have to admit that it isn’t. This is not a matter of Church teaching, however.
This will be my final post this side of the weekend and probably for some while as we are relocating to anothe area next week. Therefore may I take this opportunity to wish you, and all contributors to this current thread, a jolly splendid weekend.
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Same to you! Good luck!
 
jmj1984 said:
I never use strawmen.
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I am sure you believe that, jmj, but I am going to archive this thread, and use it as a teaching tool in how to recognize strawmen. You have done a more excellent job choosing and championing them than I have ever seen. Your lack of awareness of your vast skills in this area do not discount the value of them. 😉
jmj1984 said:
But no matter how you put it the point is that there was no need for the CCR and there is no need for it,
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I understand that this is how it is for you, and for most traditional Catholics (at least on this thread). There are plenty of lay movements in the Church. Not everyone needs all of them. I have great respect for the Brown Scapular. I don’t have a personal devotion to it, nor is it required that I do.
jmj1984 said:
there are plenty of completely orthodox and catholic devotions. Those founding the CCR did so not out of necessity but out of desire and founded the movement on the shaky sound of a heretical protestant sect.
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It is not your place to assess the spiritual needs of others (also a violation of the forum rules, by the way). It may be your judgment (as you have plainly posted) that they were not sincere in their Catholic faith and devotion when the Spirit fell upon them in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel. Fortunately for them, and for the rest of us whose faith has been revived in this way, we are not subject to your judgments. We are subjects of the Roman Pontiff, and have been encouraged by this shepherd to continue in the instruction that has been provided to us by our Bishops and leadership in the ministry to the Laity of the Church.
 
Portrait said:
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Is a man who sincerely believes that the extraordinary charismata (e.g. tongues) has long ago ceased and that the CCR is a bogus movement, guilty of uttering heresy?
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No, such a person is more likely poorly catechized. In order to be a heretic, one must first embrace the truth, then willfully reject it. Clearly, Traditional Catholics who embrace cessationism do so with all devotion and sincerity to the One, Holy, and Catholic Apostolic church.
 
I’m just learning how to use the system here…is there a way of seeing this conversation from its beginning to end rather than picking up the conversation at the end (or where it stands today) and then working backwards?

Is the Catholic Charismatic Renewal still around? There was such an outpouring in the mid-late 70’s as I remember, but like in all of North America the “Spirit” has done his or her thing and moved on to Africa these days…this is what I notice in our community but it seems to be true in the Pentacostal community. I have Pentacostal friends who also note that things aren’t as powerful to them as they were in the 70’s.

Other than that, I don’t want to comment on specifics cause I haven’t figured out yet how to read these threads and position my opinion with what is been said…any direction from anyone how to bettter organize these strings of info for myself would be great…

Trickster (an Aboriginal concept of transformation).

Bruce Ferguson
 
guanophore said:
I am sure you believe that, jmj, but I am going to archive this thread, and use it as a teaching tool in how to recognize strawmen. You have done a more excellent job choosing and championing them than I have ever seen. Your lack of awareness of your vast skills in this area do not discount the value of them. 😉

I understand that this is how it is for you, and for most traditional Catholics (at least on this thread). There are plenty of lay movements in the Church. Not everyone needs all of them. I have great respect for the Brown Scapular. I don’t have a personal devotion to it, nor is it required that I do.

It is not your place to assess the spiritual needs of others (also a violation of the forum rules, by the way). It may be your judgment (as you have plainly posted) that they were not sincere in their Catholic faith and devotion when the Spirit fell upon them in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel. Fortunately for them, and for the rest of us whose faith has been revived in this way, we are not subject to your judgments. We are subjects of the Roman Pontiff, and have been encouraged by this shepherd to continue in the instruction that has been provided to us by our Bishops and leadership in the ministry to the Laity of the Church.
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:rolleyes: Oh yet more ad hominem statements, you clearly can’t deal with the fact that the movement simply isnt Catholic.
 
jmj1984 said:
:rolleyes: Oh yet more ad hominem statements, you clearly can’t deal with the fact that the movement simply isnt Catholic.
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If the movement isn’t Catholic, why does Catholic Answers have a charismatic doing a Radio Show called Forms of Prayer ( catholic.com/radio/shows/forms-of-prayer-4945 )? And not just any charismatic, but the General Superior of the Companions of the Cross?

The Companions of the Cross is a Society of Apostolic Life based in Ottawa, Ontario. It is a community of Roman Catholic priests, which is Eucharistic, Charismatic, Marian and Magisterial. It was founded by Father Robert Bedard and was approved in 2002 by Vatican City as a Society of Apostolic Life.

Charismatic, it’s one of their four pillars. A central part of their Society. Now, take into account the different people you need to go through in Rome to become a Society of Apostolic Life. They don’t get formed every day, you know.

Out of all the Priests I’ve met and known, they’ve had one guy who was “out there”. He’s no longer a part of the Society, so that’s no longer an issue.

I encourage you to read Father Scott’s work, and Father Terry Donahue’s work if you want to see authentic Catholic teaching through the eyes of of some solid charismatic Priests.
 
trickster said:
I’m just learning how to use the system here…is there a way of seeing this conversation from its beginning to end rather than picking up the conversation at the end (or where it stands today) and then working backwards?
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Yes, just use the link at the top left that says “first” and you will go to the first post. You can also use “view last read” on the left at the top of the thread to pick up where you left off reading. Once you post, though, you can lose your place. The little page number links at the top left will take you to a specific page.
trickster said:
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 Is the Catholic Charismatic Renewal still around?  There was such an outpouring in the mid-late 70's as I remember, but like in all of North America the "Spirit" has done his or her thing and moved on to Africa these days...this is what I notice in our community but it seems to be true in the Pentacostal community.  I have Pentacostal friends who also note that things aren't as powerful to them as they were in the 70's.
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Yes, but most of the “old timers” have now moved into parish ministries or retired. I have a dear friend who has just stepped down from leading a prayer group for 40 years.
trickster said:
Other than that, I don’t want to comment on specifics cause I haven’t figured out yet how to read these threads and position my opinion with what is been said…any direction from anyone how to bettter organize these strings of info for myself would be great…

Trickster (an Aboriginal concept of transformation).

Bruce Ferguson
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Welcome.
 
trickster said:
Is the Catholic Charismatic Renewal still around? There was such an outpouring in the mid-late 70’s as I remember, but like in all of North America the “Spirit” has done his or her thing and moved on to Africa these days…this is what I notice in our community but it seems to be true in the Pentacostal community. I have Pentacostal friends who also note that things aren’t as powerful to them as they were in the 70’s.
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The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is still around. I talk to a Catholic Charismatic woman in my class. She loves and is devoted to the Catholic Church. She talks about tongues, resting in the Spirit, prophecy, all that stuff.

One thing you will learn if you are around any kind of renewal movement long enough is that it is not one big continuous “revival” “campmeeting.” The Spirit sometimes moves dramatically, like He did on the day of Pentecost. Then He came with tongues of fire and a mighty rushing wind. Other times He is there in the still small voice. Is one better than the other? No. Both are God.
 
trickster said:
Is the Catholic Charismatic Renewal still around? There was such an outpouring in the mid-late 70’s as I remember, but like in all of North America the “Spirit” has done his or her thing and moved on to Africa these days…this is what I notice in our community but it seems to be true in the Pentacostal community. I have Pentacostal friends who also note that things aren’t as powerful to them as they were in the 70’s.
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It’s thriving in some places, and dwindling in others. In some places in the world, the only places where Catholicism is doing anything (like existing) is among charismatic groups. I think the '70s, which was such a wacko time, with all this different experimentation a lot of people latched on to this but weren’t really genuine, and then after the '70s either left the Church (with droves of other people), or left the movement which they thought they had misjudged… There were kind of a lot of problems with everything in the '70s, including the CCR, so I think in some places (like Ann Arbor, MI, a big birthplace for the movement) things have matured and gotten more on the right track with a genuine renewal in the Holy Spirit.
 
The Charismatic movement has gained the personal approval of such people as…
  • Pope Benedict XVI - the current Pope
  • Pope John Paul II - the greatest Catholic of modern times
  • Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa - the Pope’s hand-picked personal homilist
  • Peter Kreeft - Master apologist and popular Catholic author
  • Scott Hahn - One of the most influential Catholics today
  • Mother Angelica - The strongest presence on Catholic cable (EWTN)
  • Fr. Benedict Groeschel - The second strongest presence on Catholic cable (EWTN)
  • Ralph Martin, Fr. Francis Martin, Fr. John Bertolucci, Ann Shields, Fr. George Martin, Karl Keating, Dan Keating, Fr. Michael Scanlan, Fr. Larry Richards, Fr. Thomas Green—heavy-hitters
And a number of other Catholic speakers, leaders, or bishops and cardinals. Pretty much, the leading people in Catholic media and many leading people in the Church are either directly involved with the movement, or have given it strong approval. So. Guess they’re all deceived.
 
vardaquinn said:
The Charismatic movement has gained the personal approval of such people as…
  • Pope Benedict XVI - the current Pope
  • Pope John Paul II - the greatest Catholic of modern times
  • Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa - the Pope’s hand-picked personal homilist
  • Peter Kreeft - Master apologist and popular Catholic author
  • Scott Hahn - One of the most influential Catholics today
  • Mother Angelica - The strongest presence on Catholic cable (EWTN)
  • Fr. Benedict Groeschel - The second strongest presence on Catholic cable (EWTN)
  • Ralph Martin, Fr. Francis Martin, Fr. John Bertolucci, Ann Shields, Fr. George Martin, Karl Keating, Dan Keating, Fr. Michael Scanlan, Fr. Larry Richards, Fr. Thomas Green—heavy-hitters
And a number of other Catholic speakers, leaders, or bishops and cardinals. Pretty much, the leading people in Catholic media and many leading people in the Church are either directly involved with the movement, or have given it strong approval. So. Guess they’re all deceived.
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As per my link above, you forgot Catholic Answers. Oh wait, Keating is on your list. Nevermind!
 
vardaquinn said:
The Charismatic movement has gained the personal approval of such people as…
  • Pope Benedict XVI - the current Pope
  • Pope John Paul II - the greatest Catholic of modern times
  • Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa - the Pope’s hand-picked personal homilist
  • Peter Kreeft - Master apologist and popular Catholic author
  • Scott Hahn - One of the most influential Catholics today
  • Mother Angelica - The strongest presence on Catholic cable (EWTN)
  • Fr. Benedict Groeschel - The second strongest presence on Catholic cable (EWTN)
  • Ralph Martin, Fr. Francis Martin, Fr. John Bertolucci, Ann Shields, Fr. George Martin, Karl Keating, Dan Keating, Fr. Michael Scanlan, Fr. Larry Richards, Fr. Thomas Green—heavy-hitters
And a number of other Catholic speakers, leaders, or bishops and cardinals. Pretty much, the leading people in Catholic media and many leading people in the Church are either directly involved with the movement, or have given it strong approval. So. Guess they’re all deceived.
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Yes, this seems to be the position of most Traditional Catholics.
 
Melchior said:
As per my link above, you forgot Catholic Answers. Oh wait, Keating is on your list. Nevermind!
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Doesn’t that mean, by participating in something that supports the Charismatic movement, they are contributing to deception and heresy by proxy?
 
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guanophore:
Yes, this seems to be the position of most Traditional Catholics.

Neo-conservative Catholics, Is what I would call them. I am not sure what you all are trying to prove with this list, most traditional Catholics know this information.
 
Irish_Polock said:
Neo-conservative Catholics, Is what I would call them. I am not sure what you all are trying to prove with this list, most traditional Catholics know this information.
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You mean, the people on that list are “neo-conservative Catholics”?

How is a “neo conservative Catholic” different from a “Traditional Catholic”?

The point of the list is to show an example of those persons active in the Church right now that are being “deceived by heresy”.
 
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