Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement

[Melchior_1]

guanophore, please try to not let what I’ve posted here disturb your peace. I’m not trying to upset anyone - but it’s your choice to be upset about the opinion of one former charismatic’s experience with the Life in the Spirit seminar.

Denise, you’re continually posting from one source, and the source comes from a website whose URL contains lies. We don’t even need to visit the site itself, the title of the site already showcases it’s flagrant bias and fallacy.

You have heard several personal experiences involved with the movement. Why hitch your wagon to a person who:

1. Is obviously disgruntled.
2. Has a quote from Pope Paul VI about the “smoke of Satan”, yet Pope Paul VI PRAISED the CCR.
3. Has blatant lies right in the URL.

 

[Denise1957]

Denise, you’re continually posting from one source, and the source comes from a website whose URL contains lies. We don’t even need to visit the site itself, the title of the site already showcases it’s flagrant bias and fallacy.

You have heard several personal experiences involved with the movement. Why hitch your wagon to a person who:

1. Is obviously disgruntled.
2. Has a quote from Pope Paul VI about the “smoke of Satan”, yet Pope Paul VI PRAISED the CCR.
3. Has blatant lies right in the URL.

I think I’ve posted everything of relevance from that website regarding the author’s experience with the Life in the Spirit seminar. But if something else of relevance comes up regarding another subject having to do with CCR, I won’t hesitate to quote this person’s opinion (from the website) again.

 

[Melchior_1]

I think I’ve posted everything of relevance from that website regarding the author’s experience with the Life in the Spirit seminar. But if something else of relevance comes up regarding another subject having to do with CCR, I won’t hesitate to quote this person’s opinion (from the website) again.

So a question; she had 10 years in the movement. I’ve had more than 10. What makes her more credible than me?

 

[guanophore]

guanophore, please try to not let what I’ve posted here disturb your peace. I’m not trying to upset anyone - but it’s your choice to be upset about the opinion of one former charismatic’s experience with the Life in the Spirit seminar.

Not at all, Denise! I have known the peace of Christ in a way I did not know was possible before I became involved in the renewal. I don’t believe you are trying to upset anyone,m and you are right, it would be my choice to be upset over dissident voices.

My criticism was directed toward your methods

breaking forum rules by posting quoted material without links

• linking to cites that are portraying falsehoods
• Refusing to look at the materials or meetings yourself, and drawing conclusions from dissident reports

I will me happy to mail you an LISS book for your review, if you want to PM your snail mail address, or you can order one from Dove Publications.

 

[Denise1957]

Not at all, Denise! I have known the peace of Christ in a way I did not know was possible before I became involved in the renewal. I don’t believe you are trying to upset anyone,m and you are right, it would be my choice to be upset over dissident voices.

My criticism was directed toward your methods

breaking forum rules by posting quoted material without links

• linking to cites that are portraying falsehoods
• Refusing to look at the materials or meetings yourself, and drawing conclusions from dissident reports

I will me happy to mail you an LISS book for your review, if you want to PM your snail mail address, or you can order one from Dove Publications.

Please see post #977. I’m off to get some much-needed housework done now. Have a nice day!

 

[ClayPots47]

I think I’ve posted everything of relevance from that website regarding the author’s experience with the Life in the Spirit seminar. But if something else of relevance comes up regarding another subject having to do with CCR, I won’t hesitate to quote this person’s opinion (from the website) again.

First, I ask you to post a link to where this blogger supposedly had 10 years experience in the CCR. I could not find this claim in her biographical blurb she links to. Second, she isn’t talking about all Life in the Spirit Seminars, just the one published by the Word of God community. know the LiSS I took (Msgr Walsh) covered Mary, the Sacraments of Eucharist and Penance as means of healing, etc. And it has an Imptimatur and Nihil Obstat. I don’t know the contents of the Word of God LiSS, but I am aware that it is a shared program, as the community is a mix of Catholics and mainline Protestants. I also am aware that there have been problems with the larger Sword of the Spirit group that Word of God is part of. The Steubenville group was ordered by it’s bishop to separate from the Sword of the Spirit due to the bishop’s objection to the materials used and admission of Protestants to the community as part of an ecumenical experiment. This is one community (Sword of the Spirit, Word of God) and it’s LiSS, not all of the CCR. And I understand that the ecclesiastical authorities have looked into the community and it’s practices, and changes are forthcoming as a result.

Three, she is extremely biased, and obviously has close to zero credibility. Anyone can blog opinionated nonsense on the web, Doesn’t mean anything they write is valid. Plus, she has what, two or three regular followers??? Yeah, a great unbiased source on CCR, NOT! Don’t even bother. Her irrational screeds are attacks that lack any sense of charity, much of it borders on hate speech. Fortunately, she doesn’t have much of an audience, as most that happen upon this waste of bandwidth banish it for the rubbish it is. Worthless biased nonsense. Her rank in search is way at the bottom as well (around 3000 hits?). Basically, her only audience is a handful that think like her. The errors she foments to fit her agenda could be easily taken apart.

Here’s one:" Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa OFM Cap., Preacher of the Papal Household preaches against Catholic dogma", of whom she has the gall to call a heretic. As if JP2 and B16 would put a heretic in the position of Preacher of the Papal Household?

Cantalemessa said “for God to love himself would be narcissism." This is denial of Vatican I, which stated “God first and foremost loves himself.” In this case Cantalemessa contradicted a solemn ecumenical council.(Rome, June 10, 2006 Trinity Sunday - A Close Mystery)

Anybody can take a statement out of it’s context and twist it to mean something it did not. To falsely claim that someone said something they didn’t, is seriously wrong. Yet “Muriel” does this repeatedly in this blog, in her desperation to prove her biased viewpoints. The question to which Father Cantalemessa raised was, “who did God love to be able to define himself as love?” God didn’t have a narcissistic self-love. The answer Father gives is, “God is love in himself, before time, because he has always had in himself a Son, the word, whom he loves with an infinite love, that is, in the Holy Spirit. In all love there are always three realities or subjects: one who loves, one who is loved, and the love that unites them.” Also, I could not find the statement “Murial” claims to be from Vatican I, “God first and foremost loves himself.” on any of the three websites that contain the documents (This one is at ewtn.) So what did I find that is Church teaching?

The 255 Infallibly Declared Dogmas of the Catholic Faith. 29. God loves Himself of necessity, but loves and wills the creation of extra-Divine things, on the other hand, with freedom. The 102 Certain Truths Not Yet Defined by the Magisterium. 11. The Holy Ghost proceeds from the will or from the mutual love of the Father and of the Son The 358 Dogmas of the Catholic Church:

.

I see no conflict with what Fr. Cantalamessa actually stated, and what the Church actually teaches. In fact, his reply to the question, “who did God love to be able to define himself as love?”, matches Church teaching, and no heresy was ever stated.

 

[bluelake]

further info and commentary on Life in the Spirit seminars:

“People are told that Baptism in the Spirit is the actualization of the gifts they receive at Baptism and Confirmation. This is not true. We receive sanctifying gifts at Baptism and they increase at Confirmation. But sanctifying gifts show up only with a deepening of spiritual life; they do not appear miraculously or simply because a charismatic laid his hands on a person. The gifts of Baptism and Confirmation are not the extraordinary gifts, so to claim that they can somehow morph into extraordinary graces via Spirit Baptism is illogical and absurd!”

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/life-in-spirit-seminar.html

I wrote a short note on this topic and my PC cut me off for updates.
May I add, the charismatic movement had its beginnig in 1906 or there about.
When a person speaks in tongues, it is one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. 1Cor.12 and 14 speak of this. There are other gifts listed as well.
When we are baptized as infants, we are baptized in the name of the Triune God.
Pentecostals are big on this movement, in fact some teach if a person has not received the gift of tongues (speaking in tongues) they are not saved. the bible does not teach this.
I can mention a book, Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements.
Written by Stanley M.Burgess, Gary B.McGee.

God bless,
bluelake

 

[guanophore]

further info and commentary on Life in the Spirit seminars:

“People are told that Baptism in the Spirit is the actualization of the gifts they receive at Baptism and Confirmation. This is not true. We receive sanctifying gifts at Baptism and they increase at Confirmation. But sanctifying gifts show up only with a deepening of spiritual life; they do not appear miraculously or simply because a charismatic laid his hands on a person. The gifts of Baptism and Confirmation are not the extraordinary gifts, so to claim that they can somehow morph into extraordinary graces via Spirit Baptism is illogical and absurd!”

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/life-in-spirit-seminar.html

I guess you are posting from her blogspot because you agree with her that the CCR is “heresy”. This is contrary to the teaching of the Church.

She also has a very warped understanding of what is taught at the LISS. It is possible that she got some bad instruction, since it does happen, but given the rest of her comments, it is more likely she misunderstood.

The release of the Spirit is, indeed, an opening of the gifts that we receive in baptism and confirmation. Her belief that “this is untrue” does not change the facts.

Yes, we do receive sanctifying grace through the Sacraments, but we also receive charismatic gifts, that are to be used for the building up of the Body of Christ. She does not seem to understand the difference between sanctifying gifts, and charismatic gifts.

She is right, though, they dont’ just miraculously appear on a person because of another layperson. The gifts of the HS appear miraculously on a person by virtue of the sacramental grace through which they are effected. Any person, though, can pray that the power of their baptism be released in and through them. I would go so far as to say that we should be praying this daily.

It is also true that the Sacramental graces don’t “morph”. This has never been taught in the CCR, and seems to be figment of this poor womans imagination. The graces sealed in us at baptism contain charisms which are to be used for the service of the Church. Nothing is “morphed” except maybe we, as believers, are transformed “from one glory into another” as we walk in the deeds He has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[ltwin]

I wrote a short note on this topic and my PC cut me off for updates.
May I add, the charismatic movement had its beginnig in 1906 or there about.
When a person speaks in tongues, it is one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. 1Cor.12 and 14 speak of this. There are other gifts listed as well.
When we are baptized as infants, we are baptized in the name of the Triune God.
Pentecostals are big on this movement, in fact some teach if a person has not received the gift of tongues (speaking in tongues) they are not saved. the bible does not teach this.
I can mention a book, Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements.
Written by Stanley M.Burgess, Gary B.McGee.

God bless,
bluelake

Some as in very few. These Oneness Pentecostals are a small minority. For your information, the Pentecostal and charismatic movements are separate things. Pentecostalism emerged in the early 1900s out of radical evangelicalism. Charismatic movements as we know them today came much later.

 

[TrueLight]

I just want to say I can’t stand the title of this thread.

 

[TrueLight]

I think there have been undue emphasis on tongues. It is also true that a person who comes to God with an unwilling spirit will stifle what God wishes to offer.

Guanohphore can you go a little more into what this means?

How would one approach with an unwilling spirit? The way I can see that happening is if one goes specifically to a charismatic service. Then one might be skeptical, if one attends with pre-conceived notions.

Unless you are advocating that everyone should go to charismatic services, how would one have an unwilling spirit at a mass for example?

 

[guanophore]

I just want to say I can’t stand the title of this thread.

I think all of us feel the same way about it. It was discussed early in the thread. I also think, since the OP disappeared, it was created as a false dichotomy in order to foment controversy. It also may have been created by a member here who has two login names, and is following the thread under adifferent username. Anyway you look at it, it is a bad title.

 

[guanophore]

Guanohphore can you go a little more into what this means?

How would one approach with an unwilling spirit? The way I can see that happening is if one goes specifically to a charismatic service. Then one might be skeptical, if one attends with pre-conceived notions.

Pre-conceived notions like that the gifts of the HS are really demonic manifestations, or creations of the participants group psychology rather than from God. But mostly I am talking about the opposite attitude of what might be seen in and Act of Consecration to the HS. At least one member on this thread has said things like “I will not/never ask for the gift of tongues or prophesy”. Contrast this with a person who comes saying “I want you to be Lord of my whole life. Whatever gifts or calling you have for me I receive them”.

A good example of contrast in attitude about the HS is a comparison of Zacharias and Mary. Mary humbly and cooperatively responds “let it be done to me according to your will”. She does not say “Well, you can do this, but not that.”. Zacharias received the message not with humble acquiescence, but with skepticism, saying “how shall I know this?” Zachy wanted God to conform to his own ideas - do thinks his way.

Unless you are advocating that everyone should go to charismatic services, how would one have an unwilling spirit at a mass for example?

Certainly I would advocate no such thing. Especially for many members on this thread, who think the movement is the spawn of Satan, I would encourage such persons to stay away. Not only will they not have a receptive attitude, the mindset of criticism that is carried in brings negativity with it. Who needs a fault finder in a prayer meeting?

Yes, I think a willing attitude reflects everywhere, including at Mass. It is my impression, though that Traditional Catholics are able to have a complete openness during the Mass, because the ritual contains their fears. A prayer meeting does not have the ritual elements they need to contain fears, so it is a risky environment for them.

 

[TrueLight]

Pre-conceived notions like that the gifts of the HS are really demonic manifestations, or creations of the participants group psychology rather than from God. But mostly I am talking about the opposite attitude of what might be seen in and Act of Consecration to the HS. At least one member on this thread has said things like “I will not/never ask for the gift of tongues or prophesy”. Contrast this with a person who comes saying “I want you to be Lord of my whole life. Whatever gifts or calling you have for me I receive them”.

A good example of contrast in attitude about the HS is a comparison of Zacharias and Mary. Mary humbly and cooperatively responds “let it be done to me according to your will”. She does not say “Well, you can do this, but not that.”. Zacharias received the message not with humble acquiescence, but with skepticism, saying “how shall I know this?” Zachy wanted God to conform to his own ideas - do thinks his

Certainly I would advocate no such thing. Especially for many members on this thread, who think the movement is the spawn of Satan, I would encourage such persons to stay away. Not only will they not have a receptive attitude, the mindset of criticism that is carried in brings negativity with it. Who needs a fault finder in a prayer meeting?

Yes, I think a willing attitude reflects everywhere, including at Mass. It is my impression, though that Traditional Catholics are able to have a complete openness during the Mass, because the ritual contains their fears. A prayer meeting does not have the ritual elements they need to contain fears, so it is a risky environment for them.

Did you mean trads are unable to have a complete openness? Or that trads are in fact able.

 

[E.E.N.S]

It is my impression, though that Traditional Catholics are able to have a complete openness during the Mass, because the ritual contains their fears. A prayer meeting does not have the ritual elements they need to contain fears, so it is a risky environment for them.

I’m not sure I understand this part, but perhaps you mean something different by the term Traditional Catholics? Though I refer to myself plainly as a Catholic, some my refer to me as a Traditional Catholic because I attend a FSSP parish. That being said, I don’t know what you mean when you say “fears”.

 

[TrueLight]

I’m not sure I understand this part, but perhaps you mean something different by the term Traditional Catholics? Though I refer to myself plainly as a Catholic, some my refer to me as a Traditional Catholic because I attend a FSSP parish. That being said, I don’t know what you mean when you say “fears”.

Exactly. Because that sounds offensive. But I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Guanophore?

 

[guanophore]

Did you mean trads are unable to have a complete openness? Or that trads are in fact able.

I did not mean anything about “trads”. I am simply saying that, if a person attends a prayer meeting with a closed heart and mind, what they get out of it will be limited. I think this principle applies to pretty much everything in life, don’t you?

Graces are received according to the disposition of the recipient.

 

[guanophore]

I’m not sure I understand this part, but perhaps you mean something different by the term Traditional Catholics? Though I refer to myself plainly as a Catholic, some my refer to me as a Traditional Catholic because I attend a FSSP parish. That being said, I don’t know what you mean when you say “fears”.

Not a small amount of the distrust of prayer groups seems to come from the lack of structure. They are most often led by laypersons, and if you read this thread, you will find examples of events that occurred at meetings that were not “validated” by a member of the Apostolic Succession. There is often a great deal of room for spontaneous expressions at prayer meetings, quite opposite of the Liturgy, which his very structured in participant response.

 

[TrueLight]

I did not mean anything about “trads”. I am simply saying that, if a person attends a prayer meeting with a closed heart and mind, what they get out of it will be limited. I think this principle applies to pretty much everything in life, don’t you?

Graces are received according to the disposition of the recipient.

Okay. You said Traditional Catholics. But since I’m on my iPhone, I abbreviated.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Not a small amount of the distrust of prayer groups seems to come from the lack of structure. They are most often led by laypersons, and if you read this thread, you will find examples of events that occurred at meetings that were not “validated” by a member of the Apostolic Succession. There is often a great deal of room for spontaneous expressions at prayer meetings, quite opposite of the Liturgy, which his very structured in participant response.

Many of the people who attend my parish (FSSP parish mind you), have non-clergy led groups/meetings and the like, so at least from my experience I don’t see this being any sort of problem.

I myself have shied away from it, but that had more to do with the people who I knew were the ones going to them, as they tended to belittle the Pope and several of the Church’s doctrines/dogmas, and were also into such things like centering prayer and reiki. In saying this, I am not saying that the Charismatic Movement consists of this, just that the only people I know associated with it in some fashion were not the type of people I wanted to spend much time with.