G
guanophore
Guest
And your opinion should be of more value to us than the Popes because…?
Defending the Holy Spirit, Defending the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement
- Status
J
jmj1984
Guest
Let us examine some of the statements from doctors of the church, saints and theologians on matters pertinent to the charasmatic movement:
'I greatly fear what is happening in these times of ours: If any soul whatever after a bit of meditation has in its recollection one of these locutions, it will immediately baptize all as coming from God and with such a supposition say, ‘God told me,’ ‘God answered me.’ Yet this is not so, but, as we pointed out, these persons themselves are more often the origin of their locution." The Ascent of Mount Carmel. Book II Ch. 29
" The soul that attaches itself to these false consolations falls into very dangerous errors, for God justly permits the devil to have power to augment in it these kinds of spiritual tastes, to repeat them frequently, and to inspire it with sentiments that are false, dangerous, and full of illusions, but which the misguided soul imagines to be true. Alas! How many souls have been seduced by these deceitful consolations? The majority of raptures and ecstasies, or, to call them by their proper name, frenzies of these fore runners of Antichrist spring from this cause. Hence, the only consolation you should admit into your soul in time of prayer, is that which is produced by the consciousness of your nothingness and misery; a consciousness which will preserve you in humility, and inspire you with profound reverence and the desire that he may be honored and glorified. Consolations such as these cannot mislead. " -* Life of St. Vincent Ferrer, By Fr. Andrew Pradel, London 1875, Pg. 183 *
'…whereas even now the Holy Ghost is received yet no one speaks in tongues of all nations, because the Church already speaks in the languages of all nations. Since whoever is not in the Church, receives not the Holy Ghost” (Tract. XXXII, in Joan). Elsewhere he also affirms that "these [glossolalia] were miracles suited to the times… Is it now expected that they upon whom hands are laid, should speak with tongues? Or when we imposed our hand upon these children, did each of you wait to see whether they would speak with tongues? and when he saw that they did not speak with tongues, were any of you so perverse of heart as to say "these have not received the Holy Ghost"? --*St. Augustine, Ep. Joan., tr. vi. *
'“TO SPEAK IN TONGUES YOU HAD NEVER LEARNED WAS, AND IS, A RECOGNIZED SYMPTOM IN ALLEGED CASES OF DIABOLIC POSSESSION.” Msgr. Ronald Knox - Enthusiasm
“Certain people value above all amongst the spiritual gifts, that of performing miracles, which are to be seen, forgetting that there are many others higher, which are hidden and because of that not liable to fall.” St. John Climacus, Scala Paradisi, 26th degree, 78
The problems I have with the catholic charasmatic movement are the following:
1)The idea of ‘Baptism of the spirit’, an increase of grace etc…
2)An obsession with speaking in tongues
3)An obsession with prophecy
4)The birth of the movement in disobedience, catholics should not attend the services of other christians or other religons and yet the movement was born out of the visiting of catholics to other church services and their active participation in their services
5)The movement was born outside the catholic church amongst heretics
6)An overemphasis on feelings rather than any logic or theology
7)The continous false ecumenicism present in the movement
8)The explicit idea that the movement will renew or is part of a renewal of the church an idea condemned by Pope Gregory XVI in his encyclical Mirari Vos
9) A complete unwillingness to properly discern spirits
10)The leading of the movement by Lay people who usurp the legitmate authority and calling of the clergy
11) The total lack of any concept of suffering, pain or self-denial that is central to the gospel message
12)The ‘healing services’, which no one can shown to have been practiced in the church before the movements creation for millenia, it is thus evidently a novelty. Worse, these healing services are often led by lay people not priests.
13)Endemic antiquarinism, the idea that the movement is returning to the way things were in the age of the apostles. Something that is aside from not being true is also wrong and was condemned by Pope Pius XII
The list of problems is probably not exhaustive, but its as a good list as any.
'I greatly fear what is happening in these times of ours: If any soul whatever after a bit of meditation has in its recollection one of these locutions, it will immediately baptize all as coming from God and with such a supposition say, ‘God told me,’ ‘God answered me.’ Yet this is not so, but, as we pointed out, these persons themselves are more often the origin of their locution." The Ascent of Mount Carmel. Book II Ch. 29
" The soul that attaches itself to these false consolations falls into very dangerous errors, for God justly permits the devil to have power to augment in it these kinds of spiritual tastes, to repeat them frequently, and to inspire it with sentiments that are false, dangerous, and full of illusions, but which the misguided soul imagines to be true. Alas! How many souls have been seduced by these deceitful consolations? The majority of raptures and ecstasies, or, to call them by their proper name, frenzies of these fore runners of Antichrist spring from this cause. Hence, the only consolation you should admit into your soul in time of prayer, is that which is produced by the consciousness of your nothingness and misery; a consciousness which will preserve you in humility, and inspire you with profound reverence and the desire that he may be honored and glorified. Consolations such as these cannot mislead. " -* Life of St. Vincent Ferrer, By Fr. Andrew Pradel, London 1875, Pg. 183 *
'…whereas even now the Holy Ghost is received yet no one speaks in tongues of all nations, because the Church already speaks in the languages of all nations. Since whoever is not in the Church, receives not the Holy Ghost” (Tract. XXXII, in Joan). Elsewhere he also affirms that "these [glossolalia] were miracles suited to the times… Is it now expected that they upon whom hands are laid, should speak with tongues? Or when we imposed our hand upon these children, did each of you wait to see whether they would speak with tongues? and when he saw that they did not speak with tongues, were any of you so perverse of heart as to say "these have not received the Holy Ghost"? --*St. Augustine, Ep. Joan., tr. vi. *
'“TO SPEAK IN TONGUES YOU HAD NEVER LEARNED WAS, AND IS, A RECOGNIZED SYMPTOM IN ALLEGED CASES OF DIABOLIC POSSESSION.” Msgr. Ronald Knox - Enthusiasm
“Certain people value above all amongst the spiritual gifts, that of performing miracles, which are to be seen, forgetting that there are many others higher, which are hidden and because of that not liable to fall.” St. John Climacus, Scala Paradisi, 26th degree, 78
The problems I have with the catholic charasmatic movement are the following:
1)The idea of ‘Baptism of the spirit’, an increase of grace etc…
2)An obsession with speaking in tongues
3)An obsession with prophecy
4)The birth of the movement in disobedience, catholics should not attend the services of other christians or other religons and yet the movement was born out of the visiting of catholics to other church services and their active participation in their services
5)The movement was born outside the catholic church amongst heretics
6)An overemphasis on feelings rather than any logic or theology
7)The continous false ecumenicism present in the movement
8)The explicit idea that the movement will renew or is part of a renewal of the church an idea condemned by Pope Gregory XVI in his encyclical Mirari Vos
9) A complete unwillingness to properly discern spirits
10)The leading of the movement by Lay people who usurp the legitmate authority and calling of the clergy
11) The total lack of any concept of suffering, pain or self-denial that is central to the gospel message
12)The ‘healing services’, which no one can shown to have been practiced in the church before the movements creation for millenia, it is thus evidently a novelty. Worse, these healing services are often led by lay people not priests.
13)Endemic antiquarinism, the idea that the movement is returning to the way things were in the age of the apostles. Something that is aside from not being true is also wrong and was condemned by Pope Pius XII
The list of problems is probably not exhaustive, but its as a good list as any.
J
jmj1984
Guest
Who said anything about my opinion? I am referring to the teaching of saints, church doctors and theologians not ‘my opinion’.
J
Jkimbo
Guest
I think it’s worth noting that the Way International which is a undisputed cult that denies Jesus is God and denies the Trinity, can not only speak in tongues but interpret tongues, prophesies, heals, and performs miracles. I attended some of their “fellowships” when I was younger out of curiosity. That was when the charismatic movement was just exploding in various Protestant clans. At that time all you had to do was pay to attend their PFL class and upon graduating you would at least speak in tongues, guaranteed.
I fail to see how speaking in tongues proves any thing whatsoever. If a obvious cult such as the Way International can do it, or at least give the appearance they do it, where was that proof again?
I fail to see how speaking in tongues proves any thing whatsoever. If a obvious cult such as the Way International can do it, or at least give the appearance they do it, where was that proof again?
V
vardaquinn
Guest
Yeah, the collected works by Kavanaugh was my translation as well. I shall have to try and get a copy of Interior Castle again! Somehow vol. 2 is missing in the collection. Go figure.
V
vardaquinn
Guest
Msgr. Knox’s book was an interesting read, but flawed in some areas. No, speaking in tongues is not a sign of demonic possession, that absolutely contradicts Scripture. It is a sign of being filled with the Holy Spirit. The fact that some demonics do this should tell us a lot. As Chesterton says, this no more disproves the reality than a counterfeit note disproves the Bank of England.
Your quote from St. John of the Cross does not condemn the movement, but it does indeed condemn the actions of many immature mystics in the movement. St. John of the Cross, far from downplaying the charismatic gifts, gives very valuable advice on using them properly so they can be best put to the service of the Church.
Your quote from the Life of St. Vincent Ferrar is not from a Doctor of the Church. It is well true that consolations may mislead one, and sensational experiences should even in fact be turned away from if there is not proper discernment. But this does not downplay the role of the charismatic gifts, because the gifts are not consolations and do not require sensational experiences - though they sometimes accompany them.
St. Augustine later retracted his statement in His Retractions when so many miraculous events occurred in his diocese.
Yes, one’s pride can definitely get caught up with miraculous gifts, and smaller hidden quiet gifts are some times greater and of more damage. This doesn’t attack the charismatic movement, though.
Your quote from St. John of the Cross does not condemn the movement, but it does indeed condemn the actions of many immature mystics in the movement. St. John of the Cross, far from downplaying the charismatic gifts, gives very valuable advice on using them properly so they can be best put to the service of the Church.
Your quote from the Life of St. Vincent Ferrar is not from a Doctor of the Church. It is well true that consolations may mislead one, and sensational experiences should even in fact be turned away from if there is not proper discernment. But this does not downplay the role of the charismatic gifts, because the gifts are not consolations and do not require sensational experiences - though they sometimes accompany them.
St. Augustine later retracted his statement in His Retractions when so many miraculous events occurred in his diocese.
Yes, one’s pride can definitely get caught up with miraculous gifts, and smaller hidden quiet gifts are some times greater and of more damage. This doesn’t attack the charismatic movement, though.
- Well, seeing as Pope Benedict XVI says things like: "Today I would like to extend the invitation to all:* let us rediscover, dear brothers and sisters, the beauty of being baptized in the Holy Spirit; let us recover awareness of our Baptism and our Confirmation, ever timely sources of grace.” (Pentecost 2008)… I’m good with it, if he’s good with it.
- This obsession may be true in some cases, but it is exasperated by non-charismatics who are so caught up over tongues because they’ve never even heard the gift exists.
- That’s the Holy Spirit there. St. Paul wants you to be obsessed with prophecy (so to speak). “Pursue love, but strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts, above all that you may prophesy.” (1 Cor. 14:1). Scripture tells us that it is the Holy Spirit who gives prophecies (though they do need discernment).
- This is not so. Show me that it is a sinful act of disobedience to attend some non-Catholic event. The Popes do it! It’s one thing if you’re attending them as a form of apostasy from the Church. But they weren’t doing that. Read up on the history of the movement. Ralph Martin has a useful book with a collection of essays.
- It was not. And even it was, this does not automatically mean it is evil.
- True in some places, sadly.
- This may be so, but define what you think “false ecumenism” is. Charismatics have made enormous progress, I would say more than anyone else, in bringing about unity. The gifts of the Spirit, according to the Church, are a powerful force of unity.
- You obviously don’t accept Vatican II, in which case you can hardly accuse the charismatics of heresy. Read Lumen Gentium.
- Absolutely not true in some places.
- What?? They’re not “usurping the clergy”. They have their own ministries and roles and vocations distinct from the clergy. The laity aren’t just supposed to warm the pews and pay the bills by their donations in the collection basket, you know. Yeah, you really don’t accept Vatican II.
- This an absolute bare assertion which you cannot possibly prove, and which I myself can disprove. I am a charismatic. I know many charismatics. All of them accept the reality of the cross. Many of them better than anyone else I know.
- Um… yeah, read the New Testament, how about. Jesus did quite a few of those. And asked the Apostles to. And they did.
- Well, Pope John Paul II doesn’t see that as a bad thing.
I’m seeing you bordering on heresy there, my friend.
D
Denise1957
Guest
Thanks - I found it. The translation is quite different in my book, which was translated about 1905. Here’s the translation for #11 in chapter six of the section on the Sixth Mansions:
“Amongst these favors, at once painful and pleasant, our Lord sometimes causes in the soul strange jubilation and prayer of which the nature is unknown. Should He bestrow this grace on you praise Him ferverently for it; I describe it for you so that you may know that it is something real. I believe that the faculties of the soul are closely united to God but that He leaves them at liberty to rejoice in their happiness together with the senses, though they do not know what they are enjoying nor how they do so. This sounds nonsense but it really happens. So excessive is its jubilee that the soul will not enjoy it alone but speaks of it to all around so they may help it to praise God, which is its one desire.”
After where it says, “causes in the soul a strange jubilation and prayer,” there’s a footnote included that says that this part has to do with Philippus a SS. Trinitate. Not sure what that means, though. What’s obvious is that the word ‘gibberish’ isn’t there in this translation. Rather the word ‘nonsense’ is given instead.
St. Teresa says …“I describe it for you so that you may know that it is something real.” She doesn’t insinuate at all that she’s trying to encourage others to speak in tongues or prophesy. She is describing what happens at this particular level, so that they will know that what they experience is real. This level is attained only after much prayer, trials, and sanctity. Do you think that Charismatics can just bypass all the hardships of the first five mansions which St. Teresa describes? I can’t remember if it was yourself or vardaquinn who said that these experiences that St. Teresa describes are something you (or vardaquinn) have experienced as well. So, you’ve already reached that great level of holiness to which St. Teresa ascribes to this level of attainment? I know that I haven’t come anywhere close to it.
Keep in mind that she’s writing this for the religious sisters, who have time for prayer, since they live in convent and realtive isolation (though the book was written when the order was going through great trials, and reform).
V
vardaquinn
Guest
Now I will quote the Doctors and Father’s of the Church, the Catechism, documents of the Church, and the Popes. For the hundreth time, in this thread alone.
“If you want proof that the Spirit of God, who was with your people and left you to come to us, come into our assemblies and there you will see Him cast out demons, heal the sick, and hear Him speak in tongues and prophesy.” - Justin Martyr
“For the prophetical gifts remain with us [Christians], even to the present time. And hence you [Jews] ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us” (Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 82 [A.D. 155]).
Homily by St. John Chrysostom newadvent.org/fathers/220135.htm He has homilies on the whole letter, all available at New Advent.
. . . for which cause also his [Christ’s] true disciples having received grace
from him use it in his name for the benefit of the rest of men, even as
each has received the gift from him. For some drive out demons with
certainty and truth, so that often those who have themselves been
cleansed from the evil spirits believe and are in the church, and some
have foreknowledge of things to be, and visions and prophetic speech,
and others cure the sick by the laying on of hands and make them whole
and even as we have said, the dead have been raised and remained with
us for many years. And why should I say more? It is not possible to tell
the number of the gifts which the church throughout the whole world,
having received them from God in the name of Jesus Christ, who was
crucified under Pontius Pilate, uses each day for the benefit of the
heathen, deceiving none and making profit from none. For as it received
freely from God, it ministers also freely.
Just as also we hear many brethren in the church who have gifts of
prophecy, and who speak through the Spirit with all manner of tongues,
and who bring the hidden things of men into the clearness for the
common good and expound the mysteries of God.
have been taught the least and strengthened us to bear up under the
sufferings which we are experiencing, being certain of the heavenly
reward, the martyrs’ crown, and the kingdom of God as a result of the
prophecy which you, being full of the Holy Spirit pledged to us in your
letter - Cyprian (250)
The prophetic charisms must exist in the church until the final coming. - Eusebius (father of Church history, 350 AD).
See Lumen Gentium 12. Be aware that there is a mistranslation there on the Vatican website. The English on the website says “Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought” (a statement contrary to Scripture). But they drop an important adverb from the Latin. It would be better translated “Extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly demanded/exacted”. But seeing as you probably don’t accept Vatican II, I don’t see that as helping matters.
“through receiving these gifts of grace [ex horum charismatum] …everyone of the faithful has the right and duty to exercise them in the church and in the world for the good of humanity and the building up of the Church.” Apostolicam actuositatem, #3
“so that all may more clearly recognize the talents with which God has enriched their souls, and then exercise the charismatic gifts which the Holy Spirit has conferred on them for the good of their sisters and brothers. Apostolicam actuositatem, # 30
They are to test the spirits to see whether they are of God, discern with a sense of faith the manifold gifts, [charismata multiformia] both exalted and ordinary, that the laity have, acknowledge them gladly and foster them with care.” Presbyterorum ordinis, #9
“Accordingly, by means of the Holy Spirit, Who distributes His gifts [charismata] as He wishes for the good of all, the Lord Christ stirs up a missionary vocation in the hearts of individuals…." Ad gentes, #23
The epistles of St. Paul, among other sources, tell us of charisms in the early Church. Vatican II recalls this teaching of the Apostle and applies it to the Church’s daily life. In the people of God, both the hierarchy and the laity share in charismatic gifts that enable them to perform ‘different works and offices’ for the good of mankind and of all Christians. Wojtla, Karol. Sources of Renewal The Implementation of Vatican II. 342-343.
See CCC paragraphs 799 to 801
See what I linked you to the Popes saying. See also vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19920624en.html which is useful. vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19940921en.html
St. Thomas Aquinas has a long chunk on charisms in his ST.
Useful, from the preacher to the papal household: catholiccharismatic.us/ccc/articles/Cantalamessa/Cantalamessa_002.html a leader in the charismatic movement. The only one allowed to preach the Pope. He was handpicked by Bl. Pope John Paul II.
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2CHARS.HTM
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1998/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_01071998_en.html
From JP 2…
And not to mention THE SACRED SCRIPTURE. 1 Corinthinas 12-14. St. Paul says “to each given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good” (meaning those charisms he just mentioned in the last sentence). This is at the heart of Paul’s theology, his idea of the Mystical Body of Christ. In the Body, we all have our own roles and our own gifts from the Holy Spirit. These supplement each other and build up the Body of Christ.
So… if you don’t accept that the charismatic gifts are a normal part of the Church’s life, and you disagree with the Pope’s here, then you might try going off and founding your own Church. But that’s not how we do things here in the Catholic Church. If you don’t like it, you can leave.
“If you want proof that the Spirit of God, who was with your people and left you to come to us, come into our assemblies and there you will see Him cast out demons, heal the sick, and hear Him speak in tongues and prophesy.” - Justin Martyr
“For the prophetical gifts remain with us [Christians], even to the present time. And hence you [Jews] ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us” (Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 82 [A.D. 155]).
Homily by St. John Chrysostom newadvent.org/fathers/220135.htm He has homilies on the whole letter, all available at New Advent.
. . . for which cause also his [Christ’s] true disciples having received grace
from him use it in his name for the benefit of the rest of men, even as
each has received the gift from him. For some drive out demons with
certainty and truth, so that often those who have themselves been
cleansed from the evil spirits believe and are in the church, and some
have foreknowledge of things to be, and visions and prophetic speech,
and others cure the sick by the laying on of hands and make them whole
and even as we have said, the dead have been raised and remained with
us for many years. And why should I say more? It is not possible to tell
the number of the gifts which the church throughout the whole world,
having received them from God in the name of Jesus Christ, who was
crucified under Pontius Pilate, uses each day for the benefit of the
heathen, deceiving none and making profit from none. For as it received
freely from God, it ministers also freely.
Just as also we hear many brethren in the church who have gifts of
prophecy, and who speak through the Spirit with all manner of tongues,
and who bring the hidden things of men into the clearness for the
common good and expound the mysteries of God.
- St. Ireneus
have been taught the least and strengthened us to bear up under the
sufferings which we are experiencing, being certain of the heavenly
reward, the martyrs’ crown, and the kingdom of God as a result of the
prophecy which you, being full of the Holy Spirit pledged to us in your
letter - Cyprian (250)
The prophetic charisms must exist in the church until the final coming. - Eusebius (father of Church history, 350 AD).
See Lumen Gentium 12. Be aware that there is a mistranslation there on the Vatican website. The English on the website says “Extraordinary gifts are not to be sought” (a statement contrary to Scripture). But they drop an important adverb from the Latin. It would be better translated “Extraordinary gifts are not to be rashly demanded/exacted”. But seeing as you probably don’t accept Vatican II, I don’t see that as helping matters.
“through receiving these gifts of grace [ex horum charismatum] …everyone of the faithful has the right and duty to exercise them in the church and in the world for the good of humanity and the building up of the Church.” Apostolicam actuositatem, #3
“so that all may more clearly recognize the talents with which God has enriched their souls, and then exercise the charismatic gifts which the Holy Spirit has conferred on them for the good of their sisters and brothers. Apostolicam actuositatem, # 30
They are to test the spirits to see whether they are of God, discern with a sense of faith the manifold gifts, [charismata multiformia] both exalted and ordinary, that the laity have, acknowledge them gladly and foster them with care.” Presbyterorum ordinis, #9
“Accordingly, by means of the Holy Spirit, Who distributes His gifts [charismata] as He wishes for the good of all, the Lord Christ stirs up a missionary vocation in the hearts of individuals…." Ad gentes, #23
The epistles of St. Paul, among other sources, tell us of charisms in the early Church. Vatican II recalls this teaching of the Apostle and applies it to the Church’s daily life. In the people of God, both the hierarchy and the laity share in charismatic gifts that enable them to perform ‘different works and offices’ for the good of mankind and of all Christians. Wojtla, Karol. Sources of Renewal The Implementation of Vatican II. 342-343.
See CCC paragraphs 799 to 801
See what I linked you to the Popes saying. See also vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19920624en.html which is useful. vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19940921en.html
St. Thomas Aquinas has a long chunk on charisms in his ST.
Useful, from the preacher to the papal household: catholiccharismatic.us/ccc/articles/Cantalamessa/Cantalamessa_002.html a leader in the charismatic movement. The only one allowed to preach the Pope. He was handpicked by Bl. Pope John Paul II.
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2CHARS.HTM
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1998/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_01071998_en.html
From JP 2…
And not to mention THE SACRED SCRIPTURE. 1 Corinthinas 12-14. St. Paul says “to each given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good” (meaning those charisms he just mentioned in the last sentence). This is at the heart of Paul’s theology, his idea of the Mystical Body of Christ. In the Body, we all have our own roles and our own gifts from the Holy Spirit. These supplement each other and build up the Body of Christ.
So… if you don’t accept that the charismatic gifts are a normal part of the Church’s life, and you disagree with the Pope’s here, then you might try going off and founding your own Church. But that’s not how we do things here in the Catholic Church. If you don’t like it, you can leave.
V
vardaquinn
Guest
Alright, then that does not necessarily speak so literally about tongues. I’ll have to ask her what she was talking about when I get to heaven (or the 6th mansion, maybe. 
)
As for bypassing spiritual advancement… Throughout the early church, tongues was usually given at confirmation when the person received the Holy Spirit. See, for instance, Acts 19:6.
I have a question. Why is it that all those that are against charismatics are intent on proving that the charisms are not for this age, and that the age of miracles ended with the Apostles, and God no longer works signs and wonders (though people say this in varying degrees). What on earth would be the benefit of such a statement, given what the Church has said?
)As for bypassing spiritual advancement… Throughout the early church, tongues was usually given at confirmation when the person received the Holy Spirit. See, for instance, Acts 19:6.
I have a question. Why is it that all those that are against charismatics are intent on proving that the charisms are not for this age, and that the age of miracles ended with the Apostles, and God no longer works signs and wonders (though people say this in varying degrees). What on earth would be the benefit of such a statement, given what the Church has said?
V
vardaquinn
Guest
You cited two Church doctors. And neither of them were relevant. Try again.
O
OrthdxyTriumphs
Guest
To constrict Teresa’s writings to only religious life goes against her life message (or “spiritual thesis” if you will). Part of Teresa’s message was that all people are meant for holiness and that God wants an intimate relationship with EACH HUMAN BEING! To quote Kavanaugh on the subject: “Her doctrinal thesis rises out of her personal story… She is certain that everyone is called to the summit of the mountain where only the glory of God dwells” (Book of her Life – Intro, pg. 43).
On a historical note, what you said is particularly incorrect in light of what Teresa’s Carmelite renewal was fighting against. At that time, a heretical intellectualism was promoted by such theologians as Melchior Cano, who thought that active/intellectual and contemplative life were incompatible, and that mental prayer* in general* was dangerous. Teresa’s life was a disavowal of his assertion; she was very sure that mental prayer was a central part of Christian life.
We all have time for prayer. All Christians are called to pray *ceaselessly *(1 Thess 5:17). Prayer has many forms. For more infomation on how to convert a lay life to prayer and contemplation, read Therese of Lesieux, Josemaria Escriva, John Paul II, and Francis de Sales. Living a life as a lay person does not separate us from God. As Teresa says:
“When one is in the midst of business matters… when one can’t maintain so much quietude, and in other times of dryness, Christ is a very good friend because we behold Him as man and see Him with weakness and trials - and He is company for us” (Book of Her Life ch. 22).
“Let us not cease to believe that in this life God gives the hundredfold” - Teresa
“If people don’t have, along with a living faith, some pledge of the love God has for them, they will not desire to be despised and belittled by everyone and have all the other great virtues that the perfect possess.” - Teresa
“You pay God a compliment by asking great things of Him.” --Teresa of Avila
O
OrthdxyTriumphs
Guest
It is true that Augustine’s early view was cessationist. However, in his later City of God and Retractions he modified his opinion about continued charismatic life and miracles.
“Why, they say, are those miracles, which you affirm were wrought formerly, wrought no longer?.. For even now miracles are wrought in the name of Christ… [He then goes on to recount miracle after miracle that have happened in his diocese. He then says:] What am I to do? I am so pressed by the promise of finishing this work, that I cannot record all the miracles I know; and doubtless several of our adherents, when they read what I have narrated, will regret that I have omitted so many which they, as well as I, certainly know. Even now I beg these persons to excuse me, and to consider how long it would take me to relate all those miracles, which the necessity of finishing the work I have undertaken forces me to omit. For were I to be silent of all others, and to record exclusively the miracles of healing which were wrought in the district of Calama and of Hippo by means of this martyr-I mean the most glorious Stephen-they would fill many volumes; and yet all even of these could not be collected, but only those of which narratives have been written for public recital. For when I saw, in our own times, frequent signs of the presence of divine powers similar to those which had been given of old, I desired that narratives might be written, judging that the multitude should not remain ignorant of these things.”
-Augustine, * The City of God 22.8*
And then in his retractions:
“It is indeed true: that the sick are not always healed… But what I said should not be taken as understanding that no miracles are believed to happen today in the name of Christ. For at the very time I wrote … a blind man in [the] city [of Milan] was given back his sight; and so many other things of this kind have happened, even in this present time, that it is not possible to know all of them or to count up all those we do have knowledge of” (Retractions 1.13)
G
guanophore
Guest
Many saints, doctors of the Church, and those Bishops and priests involved in the ministry of excorcism have affirmed that speaking in tongues can certainl be a sign of demonic posession. The human spirit can be yielded both to good, and to evil, and both types of spiritual power can work through the human person.
There is not a specific example of this in Scripture that I know of, but it has been documented throughout Church history. This is one reason it was so important for the leaders of the Renewal to meet with the Holy Father, and to be examined by those he appointed to authenticate their gifts.
Yes, I think this is the kind of spiritual direction that has been largely lacking in the movement. St John could not possibley condemn the movement, because he wrote centuries before it came into being!
This is an important distinction, but when St. Teresa talks about her experiences of the charismatic gifts, she consistently advises that they NOT be sought. In the passage we have been examining above, she encourages that we seek the state of joyous bliss in the presence of the Lord, and be grateful if gifts are experienced, but make our aim communion with him. This has been accurately cited as one of the problems with the renewal. People make too big an issue of tongues, which is the least of the gifts, and people become imbalanced following Pauls instructions to seek and earnestly desire the gifts.
It is interesting to note, though, that even that early the gifts had fallen into disuse.
Or worse, they have seen the abuses among misled pentecostal groups, and know that it can be coming from a demonic source.
I think that people don’t know what prophesy means, so they are against it. In truth, we are to walk a prophetic way of life, each and every moment speaking the Truth of Christ into our daily lives.
G
guanophore
Guest
The other critical distinction here is that these were simple prayer meetings in a dormitory. They were not “Protestant Services” as has been asserted. They were friends praying together. The injuction against “active participation” in Protestant services applies to such things as participating in their communion and other communal activities that might give the erroneous impression that unity exists when it does not. Prayer is encouraged, and joining our separated brethren in works of service as well.
Yes, but there has been an erosion of boundaries, and many Catholics having itching ears have abandoned the sacraments and taken up a Protestant form of community. One prayer group I attended for years slowly lost leadership and then participants to Protestantism. They now have abandoned the faith all together, formed their own “church” and run a thrift shop.
Certainly this still happens whether people are charismatic or not, but ecumenism that waters down the One Faith in order to invite our separated brethren is damaging to both sides.
That was what I thought when I read that too.
I think for a long time the clergy did all the work of the ministry. The concept got lost that it is the laity that are to do the work of the ministry, and the clergy are there to form and guide them in doing it.
I think that prosperity gospel and the “name it claim it” brand that I see on TV from time to time does not have an authentic place for suffering. This occurs in communities that are not charismatic, as well. I think it started when Calvin took the figure of Christ from the Cross, and declared that “he is risen - he is not on the cross anymore”. Over time, the purpose of taking up the cross has faded in Protestantism.
I think it is fear.
G
guanophore
Guest
Thanks for posting this. I don’t have this translation, but I have read that it has some differences.
When Teresa writes about the “senses” she is talking about the physical embodiment of spiritual experience. In this case, she is talking about a state of excited glee that makes a person want to clap, sing, dance and try to enlist others in their joy. In another place she wrote that it was important not to allow this type of jubilation to interfere with “daily work” (I think mopping the floor was the example). In other words, not get so heavenly that you are no earthly good. This bubbling over joy with the presence of God is what motivates prophesy (proclaiming the deeds of the Lord).
Yes. She often had others come to her with their strange expereinces so that she could help them sort out the sources, and what to do about them. She worked with many “visions” of people.
I think what she is saying in using this word “nonsense” (not sure what the original Spanish is there) is that she knows how what she is describing will be perceived by her priest confessor and the Bishop who ordered her to write the book. She also speaks of “theologians”, so there were people available who were very learned that met with her to discuss these matters, and read her works.
No, I don’t think hardship or suffering gets to be bypassed. But it is also true that people who are very spiritually immature expereince the charismatic gifts. The entire Church of Corith to whom Paul wrote were “baby” Christians, and he noted that they “lacked in no spiritual gift”. Yet clearly from his letters they were raw cadets in faith, prayer, morals and practice of piety.
Not me, by a long shot. In fact , I am applying myself to studying her works now so that I may aspire to do so. There are certain contemplative experiences that are the result of much practice and discipline, but there are also “favors” that are not related to it. They are meant to lead us into deeper life of holiness, but do not denote holiness. Clearly when the Spirit fell upon the early Christians, they were new in faith. Cornelius and his house barely heard the gospel moments before when the received the gift of tongues. Any quick browse of Corinthians will make it clear that the bunch that was “lacking in no spiritual gift” were no example of holiness whatsoever.
Yes. I think the descriptions of the ecstatic experiences and “favors” are really incidental. Her entire focus is on communing with the Spouse.
G
guanophore
Guest
Varda I know it is frustrating trying to dialogue with bigoted people, but we must be charitable. People who refuse to accept the Teachings of the Church on this matter usually do so out of fear. We know that perfect love casts out all fear, so we need to love them, and manifest the fruit of the Spirit that they need to see. This is how we can cast out the fear, and keep the skeptic.
O
OrthdxyTriumphs
Guest
Your theology on Church teaching and Magesterium is getting a little fuzzy and contradictory here. I don’t see how you can simply discount 20+ statements from the last 3 Popes as mere “personal opinions”. Popes don’t wildly deliver personal “opinions” to mass crowds of people if those people are heretical and their opinion will lead them into heresy. Also, the fact that the Church disavowed other movements that bore some form of resemblence to the CR - like Montanism - only means that THAT PARTICULAR MOVEMENT was condemned. If the CR has been specifically approved, which it HAS on the 20+ occasions I mentioned before (iccrs.org/index.php/ccr), then it is okay.
This sounds very much like “cafeteria Catholicism”. As Catholics we believe in an objective truth, THE Truth of Christ. There isn’t room for picking and choosing which pieces of Catholicism you will agree with and which you won’t.
What exactly do you want here? The renewal of the spirit has been approved, but it’s a movement of the spirit, not a concrete hierarchical sect, so there’s no way to give the same kind of sanction that you might give to Opus Dei or Carmelites. However, particular organizations that represent the goals of the renewal, like ICCRS (International Charismatic Renewal Services), are Vatican approved, officially. ICCRS is in the official Vatican list of approved Lay movements
[vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/laity/documents/rc_pc_laity_doc_20051114_associazioni_en.html#INTERNATIONAL CATHOLIC CHARISMATIC RENEWAL SERVICES](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...c_20051114_associazioni_en.html#INTERNATIONAL CATHOLIC CHARISMATIC RENEWAL SERVICES)
and has a Vatican decree
iccrs.org/en/index.php/about/decree
and approved Statutes
iccrs.org/en/index.php/about/statutes
G
guanophore
Guest
Because if a person accepts that what the Apostles believed, practiced, and taught applies to us today, then they would be obligated to get on the stick, and get with the program.Alright, then that does not necessarily speak so literally about tongues. I’ll have to ask her what she was talking about when I get to heaven (or the 6th mansion, maybe.
As for bypassing spiritual advancement… Throughout the early church, tongues was usually given at confirmation when the person received the Holy Spirit. See, for instance, Acts 19:6.
I have a question. Why is it that all those that are against charismatics are intent on proving that the charisms are not for this age, and that the age of miracles ended with the Apostles, and God no longer works signs and wonders (though people say this in varying degrees). What on earth would be the benefit of such a statement, given what the Church has said?
If one is afraid of how the Spirit might move in one’s life, it behooves one to quench the Spirit, to save oneself from whatever unexpected sequalae may occur.
J
jmj1984
Guest
Actually it has little to do with cafeteria catholicism and everything to do with looking at the tradition of the Catholic Church, within this tradition there is no supplier from the movement. Again when you speak of approval you refer to the popes addressing charasmatic meetings, no encyclical has been written on the matter and no definitive authoritative document on the subject exists. Of all the forms of authority a papal speech is the lowest. Further you exagerate there are not 20+ statements.
And no, when a movement has been condemned it is condemned both because of the movements doctrines and its actions, if another movement comes along espousing much the same doctrine and doing much the same things it is equally likely to be erroneous and false.
J
jmj1984
Guest
So thats it, you just condemn Msgr Knox like that? No citiation of evidence, no argument, no nothing ‘He’s just wrong’
Seeing as the movements encourage people to seek these gifts, people often do and then behave exactly as St John of the Cross described the quote is very relevant.
You’ll not that I said ‘Saints, Doctors of the church and theologians’ and you’ll note again that he is speaking of behaviour that is inextricably linked with the catholic charasmatic movement. The gifts almost always involve sensatonal experiences and I don’t think anyone is going to be silly enough to argue that speaking in a tongue supposedly given to you by God is not a consolation…
You’ll note that the statement you’ve posted does not mention tongues at all, merely miracles which no one says don’t or can’t happen in this time. St augustines quote does therefore still apply.
Is this merely a quote from a statement he made in Pentecost? Because I see no reference to the charasmatic movement in it at all, rather I see reference to sound Catholic Theology
I’m pretty sure they’re obssessed enough by it all on their own
I am not going to engage in some protestant distortion of scriptures, it is enough for me that the church has never approved an obsession with prophecy and doctors of the church and saints have warned against seeking for it.
Canon 1258 of the 1917 code of Canon Law which was in force until 1983 listed it as something to be punished with a ‘just penalty’, asides from this numerous popes have condemned it. If popes want to make exceptions for themselves they may do so, the fact remains however that prior to 1983 is was legally a crime according to canon law.
“… this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in
the assemblies of non-Catholics…" Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos
'They [the faithful] should
totally shun their religious celebrations, their buildings, and their chairs of pestilence
which they have with impunity established to transmit the sacred teachings. They
should shun their writings and all contact with them. They should not have any dealings
or meetings with usurping priests and apostates from the faith who dare to exercise the
duties of an ecclesiastical minister without possessing a legitimate mission or any jurisdiction
’ Pope Pius IX, Graves ac diuturnae
That suffices to show it is not in the catholic tradition to do such things.
- Status